Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5576|London, England
A federal judge has ruled in favor of a public university that removed a Christian student from its graduate program in school counseling over her belief that homosexuality is morally wrong. Monday's ruling, according to Julea Ward's attorneys, could result in Christian students across the country being expelled from public university for similar views.

“It’s a very dangerous precedent,” Jeremy Tedesco, legal counsel for the conservative Alliance Defense Fund, told FOX News Radio. “The ruling doesn’t say that explicitly, but that’s what is going to happen.”

U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.

The university contended she violated school policy and the American Counseling Association code of ethics.

“Christian students shouldn’t be expelled for holding to and abiding by their beliefs,” said ADF senior counsel David French. “To reach its decision, the court had to do something that’s never been done in federal court: uphold an extremely broad and vague university speech code.”

Eastern Michigan University hailed the decision.

“We are pleased that the court has upheld our position in this matter,” EMU spokesman Walter Kraft said in a written statement. “Julea Ward was not discriminated against because of her religion. To the contrary, Eastern Michigan is deeply committed to the education of our students and welcomes individuals from diverse backgrounds into our community.”

In his 48-page opinion, Judge Steeh said the university had a rational basis for adopting the ACA Code of Ethics.

“Furthermore, the university had a rational basis for requiring students to counsel clients without imposing their personal values,” he wrote in a portion of his ruling posted by The Detroit News. “In the case of Ms. Ward, the university determined that she would never change her behavior and would consistently refuse to counsel clients on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs – including homosexual relationships.”

Ward’s attorneys claim the university told her she would only be allowed to remain in the program if she went through a “remediation” program so that she could “see the error of her ways” and change her belief system about homosexuality.

The case is similar to a lawsuit the ADF filed against Augusta State University in Georgia. Counseling student Jennifer Keeton was allegedly told to stop sharing her Christian beliefs in order to graduate.

Keeton's lawsuit alleged that she was told to undergo a reeducation program and attend “diversity sensitivity training.”

University officials declined to comment on specifics of the lawsuit but released a statement to FOX News that said Augusta State does not discriminate on the basis of students’ moral, religious, political or personal beliefs.

Tedesco said both cases should be a warning to Christians attending public colleges and universities.

“Public universities are imposing the ideological stances of private groups on their students,” he said. “If you don’t comply, you will be kicked out. It’s scary stuff and it’s not a difficult thing to see what’s coming down the pike.”

The Alliance Defense Fund told FOX News it will appeal the ruling.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/28/co … sexuality/

Now, this is being touted as an attack on Christianity by public universities. The article is meant to inspire fear among Christians that they themselves may come under persecution for expressing their beliefs. This is one of a string of articles on a similar topic that I've seen spring up on Foxnews in recent weeks, this one just happens to be on a court ruling that 'they' lost.

Why this article is absurd is due to the fact that the woman in question would have no place in her chosen profession to begin with. She's going to school to become a school guidance counselor. Did she really believe that her view that she should preach to students and deny care to those who don't fit into her moral code would fly? Seriously? The woman would never be able to find a job. In my eyes, the school did her a damn favor (and saved some poor school district from a future lawsuit when she would inevitably be fired).

There's no prayer in school and there certainly should be no preaching in the guidance counselors office.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Benzin
Member
+576|6217
good find, John. I totally agree with you.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6834|do not disturb

U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.
As soon as I read this part, the article lost all credibility. Fox portrays the women as being discriminated against, yet she discriminates as well. Wow.

Some of these Bible thumpers need to learn a little humility. The bible says all have sinned and all are worthy of condemnation. Jesus even ate with the "heathens", who is she to judge?
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6885

Missionary work, tbh...
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|6787|Mountains of NC

little off subject but along the lines of you referencing that foxnews has had a string of christian articles :

they've probably been doing this since abc news had been on a slight anti-christian ( and other religions ) kick lately
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6623|North Carolina
This kind of reminds me of how many pharmacists cite religious beliefs when refusing to supply birth control or the morning after pill to customers.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6834|do not disturb

I know there are very devote Christians who would not turn a homosexual away or feel any different counseling them as opposed to a heterosexual. If she was a private consular, she could turn away anyone she pleases...
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6885

She should have just gone to a private catholic university...
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5477|foggy bottom

Ilocano wrote:

She should have just gone to a private catholic university...
sure she would have if she had the money
Tu Stultus Es
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6870|USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

A federal judge has ruled in favor of a public university that removed a Christian student from its graduate program in school counseling over her belief that homosexuality is morally wrong. Monday's ruling, according to Julea Ward's attorneys, could result in Christian students across the country being expelled from public university for similar views.

“It’s a very dangerous precedent,” Jeremy Tedesco, legal counsel for the conservative Alliance Defense Fund, told FOX News Radio. “The ruling doesn’t say that explicitly, but that’s what is going to happen.”

U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.

The university contended she violated school policy and the American Counseling Association code of ethics.

“Christian students shouldn’t be expelled for holding to and abiding by their beliefs,” said ADF senior counsel David French. “To reach its decision, the court had to do something that’s never been done in federal court: uphold an extremely broad and vague university speech code.”

Eastern Michigan University hailed the decision.

“We are pleased that the court has upheld our position in this matter,” EMU spokesman Walter Kraft said in a written statement. “Julea Ward was not discriminated against because of her religion. To the contrary, Eastern Michigan is deeply committed to the education of our students and welcomes individuals from diverse backgrounds into our community.”

In his 48-page opinion, Judge Steeh said the university had a rational basis for adopting the ACA Code of Ethics.

“Furthermore, the university had a rational basis for requiring students to counsel clients without imposing their personal values,” he wrote in a portion of his ruling posted by The Detroit News. “In the case of Ms. Ward, the university determined that she would never change her behavior and would consistently refuse to counsel clients on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs – including homosexual relationships.”

Ward’s attorneys claim the university told her she would only be allowed to remain in the program if she went through a “remediation” program so that she could “see the error of her ways” and change her belief system about homosexuality.

The case is similar to a lawsuit the ADF filed against Augusta State University in Georgia. Counseling student Jennifer Keeton was allegedly told to stop sharing her Christian beliefs in order to graduate.

Keeton's lawsuit alleged that she was told to undergo a reeducation program and attend “diversity sensitivity training.”

University officials declined to comment on specifics of the lawsuit but released a statement to FOX News that said Augusta State does not discriminate on the basis of students’ moral, religious, political or personal beliefs.

Tedesco said both cases should be a warning to Christians attending public colleges and universities.

“Public universities are imposing the ideological stances of private groups on their students,” he said. “If you don’t comply, you will be kicked out. It’s scary stuff and it’s not a difficult thing to see what’s coming down the pike.”

The Alliance Defense Fund told FOX News it will appeal the ruling.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/28/co … sexuality/

Now, this is being touted as an attack on Christianity by public universities. The article is meant to inspire fear among Christians that they themselves may come under persecution for expressing their beliefs. This is one of a string of articles on a similar topic that I've seen spring up on Foxnews in recent weeks, this one just happens to be on a court ruling that 'they' lost.

Why this article is absurd is due to the fact that the woman in question would have no place in her chosen profession to begin with. She's going to school to become a school guidance counselor. Did she really believe that her view that she should preach to students and deny care to those who don't fit into her moral code would fly? Seriously? The woman would never be able to find a job. In my eyes, the school did her a damn favor (and saved some poor school district from a future lawsuit when she would inevitably be fired).

There's no prayer in school and there certainly should be no preaching in the guidance counselors office.
I agree, however, I am forced to examine where it would end? Can a Muslim be a guidance councilor, can a homosexual, how about a Mormon with their views on polygamy?

It is a slippery slope when we are willing to nail people for their thoughts and opinions before their actions.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5576|London, England

lowing wrote:

I agree, however, I am forced to examine where it would end? Can a Muslim be a guidance councilor, can a homosexual, how about a Mormon with their views on polygamy?

It is a slippery slope when we are willing to nail people for their thoughts and opinions before their actions.
Yes, as long as they keep their own moral code out of whatever guidance they are giving. Can a homosexual encourage students in his care to choose homosexuality? No. Can a Muslim try to convert people to Islam? No. None of that is part of the job description. The job is simply to help a student maximize his or her potential in school, not in life.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
alexb
<3
+590|6158|Kentucky, USA

Fox News.

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5576|London, England

alexb wrote:

Fox News.

Thanks for adding, moron.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6870|USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:

I agree, however, I am forced to examine where it would end? Can a Muslim be a guidance councilor, can a homosexual, how about a Mormon with their views on polygamy?

It is a slippery slope when we are willing to nail people for their thoughts and opinions before their actions.
Yes, as long as they keep their own moral code out of whatever guidance they are giving. Can a homosexual encourage students in his care to choose homosexuality? No. Can a Muslim try to convert people to Islam? No. None of that is part of the job description. The job is simply to help a student maximize his or her potential in school, not in life.
Then couldn't the same be said for this woman who has an opinion on homosexuality? Can she not give guidance without injecting her own personal views. I mean if a Muslim, Mormon or a homosexual can do it  why not a Christian?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6623|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:

I agree, however, I am forced to examine where it would end? Can a Muslim be a guidance councilor, can a homosexual, how about a Mormon with their views on polygamy?

It is a slippery slope when we are willing to nail people for their thoughts and opinions before their actions.
Yes, as long as they keep their own moral code out of whatever guidance they are giving. Can a homosexual encourage students in his care to choose homosexuality? No. Can a Muslim try to convert people to Islam? No. None of that is part of the job description. The job is simply to help a student maximize his or her potential in school, not in life.
Then couldn't the same be said for this woman who has an opinion on homosexuality? Can she not give guidance without injecting her own personal views. I mean if a Muslim, Mormon or a homosexual can do it  why not a Christian?
I think the issue is that she refused to help a given type of person.  That's a great way to get ousted regardless of your religion.

For example, a Muslim counselor would be ousted for refusing to help a Jewish student.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5576|London, England

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:

I agree, however, I am forced to examine where it would end? Can a Muslim be a guidance councilor, can a homosexual, how about a Mormon with their views on polygamy?

It is a slippery slope when we are willing to nail people for their thoughts and opinions before their actions.
Yes, as long as they keep their own moral code out of whatever guidance they are giving. Can a homosexual encourage students in his care to choose homosexuality? No. Can a Muslim try to convert people to Islam? No. None of that is part of the job description. The job is simply to help a student maximize his or her potential in school, not in life.
Then couldn't the same be said for this woman who has an opinion on homosexuality? Can she not give guidance without injecting her own personal views. I mean if a Muslim, Mormon or a homosexual can do it  why not a Christian?
She was refusing to service people who were homosexuals because she has a moral opposition to their lifestyle.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6867

Turquoise wrote:

This kind of reminds me of how many pharmacists cite religious beliefs when refusing to supply birth control or the morning after pill to customers.
Fuck 'em, they lose out economically. Plan B is expensive.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5576|London, England

ghettoperson wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

This kind of reminds me of how many pharmacists cite religious beliefs when refusing to supply birth control or the morning after pill to customers.
Fuck 'em, they lose out economically. Plan B is expensive.
Yeah, the difference between a pharmacist and a school guidance counselor is that one has a monopoly while the other has competition. What people do with their own business is none of our concern. If they want to be bigoted it's their own loss.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6867

Oh of course, I agree. A high school counsellor is the last person that should harbour bigoted views.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6870|USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Yes, as long as they keep their own moral code out of whatever guidance they are giving. Can a homosexual encourage students in his care to choose homosexuality? No. Can a Muslim try to convert people to Islam? No. None of that is part of the job description. The job is simply to help a student maximize his or her potential in school, not in life.
Then couldn't the same be said for this woman who has an opinion on homosexuality? Can she not give guidance without injecting her own personal views. I mean if a Muslim, Mormon or a homosexual can do it  why not a Christian?
She was refusing to service people who were homosexuals because she has a moral opposition to their lifestyle.
I read that, but could she not have done so because she knew she could not be unbiased regarding the issue, so she recused herself from it. An argument could be made that she was being responsible in recognizing she could not provide the needs that that particular student was looking for.

But regardless, this does open the door to removing people form positions based on thought. A dangerous precedent I think.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6870|USA

ghettoperson wrote:

Oh of course, I agree. A high school counsellor is the last person that should harbour bigoted views.
Yes because before they were a guidance counsellor, they had no life experiences to base opinions on and no views on any issues.

Your post is a perfect example of the fantasy land on which most of you think you live.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6324|eXtreme to the maX

lowing wrote:

But regardless, this does open the door to removing people form positions based on thought. A dangerous precedent I think.
Not thought, lack of unbiased action.
They can be as bigoted as they like, so long as they keep it out of their professional lives.

Would it be acceptable to have christian firefighter who refused to save the houses of heathens?
Think not.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-07-28 17:07:42)

Fuck Israel
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5576|London, England

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:


Then couldn't the same be said for this woman who has an opinion on homosexuality? Can she not give guidance without injecting her own personal views. I mean if a Muslim, Mormon or a homosexual can do it  why not a Christian?
She was refusing to service people who were homosexuals because she has a moral opposition to their lifestyle.
I read that, but could she not have done so because she knew she could not be unbiased regarding the issue, so she recused herself from it. An argument could be made that she was being responsible in recognizing she could not provide the needs that that particular student was looking for.

But regardless, this does open the door to removing people form positions based on thought. A dangerous precedent I think.
No, it just makes certain people unfit to fill certain jobs. You wouldn't want a 4'11" 80 lb female working as a cop or as a construction worker, or a mentally retarded person working as an air traffic controller. Certain people have limitations and aren't really meant to perform certain jobs. Her rigid religious views and intolerance makes her a liability. Is the school district supposed to hire a second guidance counselor simply because she refuses to offer any potential homosexual students her services? Don't you think the homo kids already go through enough shit without having to deal with someone in authority openly demeaning them? She doesn't have a leg to stand on.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6623|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Oh of course, I agree. A high school counsellor is the last person that should harbour bigoted views.
Yes because before they were a guidance counsellor, they had no life experiences to base opinions on and no views on any issues.

Your post is a perfect example of the fantasy land on which most of you think you live.
Uh...  prejudice is one thing...  bigotry is another.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6870|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

But regardless, this does open the door to removing people form positions based on thought. A dangerous precedent I think.
Not thought, lack of unbiased action.
They can be as bigoted as they like, so long as they keep it out of their professional lives.

Would it be acceptable to have christian firefighter who refused to save the houses of heathens?
Think not.
yer askin' the wrong perosn that question.

DO you honestly believe you know ANYONE that has no opinions on ANYTHING? WHat am I saying, you live in that same fantasy land as ghettoperson.

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