Same situation, different team;
No.Zimmer wrote:
I don't think Massa and Alonso should be penalised, as they merely followed team orders (which any driver has to do). I think the fair thing here is to strip Ferrari of their team points in the constructors championship. That way Alonso and Massa still get their well deserved points but Ferrari get a proper fine. Agree?
The move was made specifically to benefit a driver to make it more likely they win the drivers championship. Ferrari (and everyone else) knows that a drivers championship in your car is more prestigious then the constructors championship and that was what the move was all about. Black flag both drivers (they lose all points for the race), 5 grid place penalty at the next round for both drivers, Strip Ferrari of all constructor points and give them a large fine (50-100million).
I'd feel sorry for Massa, but if you're not hard on them, then they'll just continue to do it.
No, that's just ridiculously stupid. It wasn't the drivers call, so they shouldn't be penalised, simple as. I'm sorry, but your suggestion is just crazy and just sounds as if you have major hatred towards the Ferrari team.DrunkFace wrote:
No.Zimmer wrote:
I don't think Massa and Alonso should be penalised, as they merely followed team orders (which any driver has to do). I think the fair thing here is to strip Ferrari of their team points in the constructors championship. That way Alonso and Massa still get their well deserved points but Ferrari get a proper fine. Agree?
The move was made specifically to benefit a driver to make it more likely they win the drivers championship. Ferrari (and everyone else) knows that a drivers championship in your car is more prestigious then the constructors championship and that was what the move was all about. Black flag both drivers (they lose all points for the race), 5 grid place penalty at the next round for both drivers, Strip Ferrari of all constructor points and give them a large fine (50-100million).
I'd feel sorry for Massa, but if you're not hard on them, then they'll just continue to do it.
A major hatred, born of the leniency that Ferrari get from the FIA.Zimmer wrote:
No, that's just ridiculously stupid. It wasn't the drivers call, so they shouldn't be penalised, simple as. I'm sorry, but your suggestion is just crazy and just sounds as if you have major hatred towards the Ferrari team.DrunkFace wrote:
No.Zimmer wrote:
I don't think Massa and Alonso should be penalised, as they merely followed team orders (which any driver has to do). I think the fair thing here is to strip Ferrari of their team points in the constructors championship. That way Alonso and Massa still get their well deserved points but Ferrari get a proper fine. Agree?
The move was made specifically to benefit a driver to make it more likely they win the drivers championship. Ferrari (and everyone else) knows that a drivers championship in your car is more prestigious then the constructors championship and that was what the move was all about. Black flag both drivers (they lose all points for the race), 5 grid place penalty at the next round for both drivers, Strip Ferrari of all constructor points and give them a large fine (50-100million).
I'd feel sorry for Massa, but if you're not hard on them, then they'll just continue to do it.
It's a "team" sport, they made the decision and followed through with it as a "team". Therefore you punish the "team"... which means everyone. If Ferrari told Massa to take out the leader of the championship on the last race so Alonso could win do you think that only Ferrari should be penalised or Massa as well?Zimmer wrote:
No, that's just ridiculously stupid. It wasn't the drivers call, so they shouldn't be penalised, simple as. I'm sorry, but your suggestion is just crazy and just sounds as if you have major hatred towards the Ferrari team.DrunkFace wrote:
No.Zimmer wrote:
I don't think Massa and Alonso should be penalised, as they merely followed team orders (which any driver has to do). I think the fair thing here is to strip Ferrari of their team points in the constructors championship. That way Alonso and Massa still get their well deserved points but Ferrari get a proper fine. Agree?
The move was made specifically to benefit a driver to make it more likely they win the drivers championship. Ferrari (and everyone else) knows that a drivers championship in your car is more prestigious then the constructors championship and that was what the move was all about. Black flag both drivers (they lose all points for the race), 5 grid place penalty at the next round for both drivers, Strip Ferrari of all constructor points and give them a large fine (50-100million).
I'd feel sorry for Massa, but if you're not hard on them, then they'll just continue to do it.
I agree with Zimmer. They've got to protect the drivers, especially in the times we are in now with drivers actually paying for a spot to have in the team. Thus there are several very capable drivers that are sidelined this season, some more self-chosen than others. Worth mentioning are Heidfeld, Raikonen and Montoya, in addition to several capable drivers in GP2 who are getting closer and closer to a call-up. Romain Grosjean has been spoken a lot about, but you also have top drivers like Maldonado and Perez (massive talent) who could well contest a spot withing the next few years.
My point is that the teams have so much control over the drivers now. Massa knows he can't just say 'no' - he'd be jeopardising his place in the team, and there aren't a lot of open seats in F1 atm, especially not for a driver with the salary of Massa's. Ferrari are the ones who need to be punished, not Massa or Alonso, and thus a good fine, removal of team points and some media frenzy should do it imo.
My point is that the teams have so much control over the drivers now. Massa knows he can't just say 'no' - he'd be jeopardising his place in the team, and there aren't a lot of open seats in F1 atm, especially not for a driver with the salary of Massa's. Ferrari are the ones who need to be punished, not Massa or Alonso, and thus a good fine, removal of team points and some media frenzy should do it imo.
That is completely different. Intentionally ramming an oponent is against the rules. Slowing down to let a car pass you is not.DrunkFace wrote:
It's a "team" sport, they made the decision and followed through with it as a "team". Therefore you punish the "team"... which means everyone. If Ferrari told Massa to take out the leader of the championship on the last race so Alonso could win do you think that only Ferrari should be penalised or Massa as well?Zimmer wrote:
No, that's just ridiculously stupid. It wasn't the drivers call, so they shouldn't be penalised, simple as. I'm sorry, but your suggestion is just crazy and just sounds as if you have major hatred towards the Ferrari team.DrunkFace wrote:
No.
The move was made specifically to benefit a driver to make it more likely they win the drivers championship. Ferrari (and everyone else) knows that a drivers championship in your car is more prestigious then the constructors championship and that was what the move was all about. Black flag both drivers (they lose all points for the race), 5 grid place penalty at the next round for both drivers, Strip Ferrari of all constructor points and give them a large fine (50-100million).
I'd feel sorry for Massa, but if you're not hard on them, then they'll just continue to do it.
If Massa, on his own, allowed Alonso to overtake him, it wouldn't violate any rules. His move is not illegal. It's the fact that the Ferrari team ordered him to do so that breaks the rule, and thus it's the team that should be punished, not Massa or Alonso.
Slowly all of the Red Bull RB6's secrets are being found out. Everyone's getting the exhaust blown diffuser on, then there's their engine map for qualifying which helps the diffuser even more. Now that teams have found out about the flexing wings (bit late, forums were talking about it ages ago) and the FIA haven't done anything about it, so teams have already started to copy it. Ferrari had it for Hockenheim. McLaren will get one soon.
Red Bull's advantage they had is going fast and they cocked up multiple times and couldn't take advantage of it like Brawn did last year.
Some pics of the flexing front wings, first some regular one's on Mercedes and McLaren:
now look at Webber:
Red Bull's advantage they had is going fast and they cocked up multiple times and couldn't take advantage of it like Brawn did last year.
Some pics of the flexing front wings, first some regular one's on Mercedes and McLaren:
now look at Webber:
Yamamoto again takes Chandhok's place in Hungary
More on topic to the recent debate, Motor racing-Support seen for legalising F1 team orders.
"I believe what people do when they are inside the team and how they run their team is up to them. Nobody should interfere" - Bernie Ecclestone
David Coulthard hits the nail on the head imo,
More on topic to the recent debate, Motor racing-Support seen for legalising F1 team orders.
"I believe what people do when they are inside the team and how they run their team is up to them. Nobody should interfere" - Bernie Ecclestone
David Coulthard hits the nail on the head imo,
Former race winner David Coulthard, who was famously on the wrong end of team orders at McLaren in Australia in 1998, wrote in a column in the Daily Telegraph that the ban was "frankly ludicrous".
"I know that what we saw at Hockenheim on Sunday... was unpalatable to many fans but for goodness sake, wake up and smell the coffee," added the BBC pundit who also serves as a Red Bull consultant.
"Team orders happen in F1. They always have and they always will. Just because Ferrari were ham-fisted in breaking the rules, does it make their transgression any worse?
"I cannot believe some of the hypocrisy we've heard in the past couple of days."
I dunno why people are saying this now, the rule was amended all the way back in 2002 after it was clear that people had enough. All of a sudden it happens again and now people are like, get rid of the rule. The rule wasn't added at the whim of the FIA, it was added after the clear dissapointment after Austria 2002. People should still take that into consideration instead of ignoring it and banging on about events that happened in the 50's and shit.
Interesting pics Mek...now I see what they were on about with the differences in the front wings. I dont understand that if its illegal, then how have RB got away with it? Unless they get away with it on a technicality
As for team orders...I cant say Id like to see it return, and as for the current ruling: it should be far more strict and clear.
Motor racing should be about....racing. Not slowing down and letting people past. The 2 most competitive cars on the track are both drivers of the same team, and that can be negated with a single radio message? Bah.
Don't like this one bit. Drivers should race for position, not have it decided.
As for team orders...I cant say Id like to see it return, and as for the current ruling: it should be far more strict and clear.
Motor racing should be about....racing. Not slowing down and letting people past. The 2 most competitive cars on the track are both drivers of the same team, and that can be negated with a single radio message? Bah.
Don't like this one bit. Drivers should race for position, not have it decided.
It's a tough issue. People can say that "if it's just between the team, then it's ok", but then the issue arises that allowing a team mate to pass could one day decide the result of a world championship.
I also think that another thing that people were upset about with the Ferrari dealie was that it would have been Massa's first since Brazil 08...if Alonso and Massa had been swapping victories all year, then it might not have been such a big deal, but because people thought Massa had been robbed, they get more up in arms over it.
I also think that another thing that people were upset about with the Ferrari dealie was that it would have been Massa's first since Brazil 08...if Alonso and Massa had been swapping victories all year, then it might not have been such a big deal, but because people thought Massa had been robbed, they get more up in arms over it.
Serious Flex
Good find Mek. There's a video on the internet of Webber onboard in Hockenheim and you could clearly see the front wing 'flexing' and pushing downMekstizzle wrote:
Slowly all of the Red Bull RB6's secrets are being found out. Everyone's getting the exhaust blown diffuser on, then there's their engine map for qualifying which helps the diffuser even more. Now that teams have found out about the flexing wings (bit late, forums were talking about it ages ago) and the FIA haven't done anything about it, so teams have already started to copy it. Ferrari had it for Hockenheim. McLaren will get one soon.
Red Bull's advantage they had is going fast and they cocked up multiple times and couldn't take advantage of it like Brawn did last year.
Some pics of the flexing front wings, first some regular one's on Mercedes and McLaren:
http://www.darrenheath.com/sites/defaul … 003i_0.jpg
http://www.darrenheath.com/sites/defaul … 01ii_0.jpg
now look at Webber:
http://www.darrenheath.com/sites/defaul … _002ii.jpg
McLaren “don’t understand” Red Bull’s wing
McLaren engineering director Paddy Lowe wrote:
We believe, and we’re not alone, that two cars – Ferrari and Red Bull – that have wings existing at a much lower position than we’re able to deliver.
There’s a difference of a reasonably large degree that we’ve got to explain by relatively subtle effects such as fuel weight, tyre pressure, difference in the straight or low-speed set-up. These things affect to a car to a relatively small degree, much smaller than the difference we’ve seen in the pictures.
So there is a phenomenon that we’re seeing, we just don’t understand it. So what we’re doing at the moment is working really hard to try and understand it and see if it’s got performance and whether we can deliver that.
Imagine if Red bull had the Mercedes engine...
They say the Renault engine is the most efficient on the grid, notice how the Red Bull has one of the smallest back ends and how the Renault car is in general one of the smallest. They can run a tight package with itDrunkFace wrote:
Imagine if Red bull had the Mercedes engine...
There's more to engines than horsepower, it's just that Red Bull/Renault like to complain so that they'll have all the advantages, not just efficiency and such.
Red Bull are certainly on form this weekend.
Even the camera-men are focusing on the flexible wings now.
Even the camera-men are focusing on the flexible wings now.
yes like a second clear of the rest
Last edited by menzo (2010-07-31 10:38:52)
Jesus those RBs are fucking quick.
You know the car is fast when it's doing better lap times than the godlike F2004 (Ferrari car driven by Schumacher during 2004 season)
Protip: Tomorrow's race is going to be the most boring of the season.
No passing but lots of controversy...Jenspm wrote:
Protip: Tomorrow's race is going to be the most boring of the season.
I hope Schumacher gets penalised for that on Rubens, his interview at the end when Rubens was listening with the bbc crew was bad. "There are peoples opinions, and then Rubens opinion". Fuck off. Get off your high horse and admit that you got overtaken by an "inferior" driver. You may have 7 championships, but Rubens is by far the better driver.
Boring(ish) race, but quite a few incidents, not least the pit-lane. Holy shit, that tyre was crazy! Nevermind Kub/Sutils collision right in the path of all the mechanics.
For a 25th bday...I was gutted that Lewis had to retire At least Webber was on pole and not Vettel so that made up slightly.
Boring(ish) race, but quite a few incidents, not least the pit-lane. Holy shit, that tyre was crazy! Nevermind Kub/Sutils collision right in the path of all the mechanics.
For a 25th bday...I was gutted that Lewis had to retire At least Webber was on pole and not Vettel so that made up slightly.
God bless Liuzzi for making this interesting.
And that move by Schumacher was outrageous.
And that move by Schumacher was outrageous.
Liuzzi didn't do anything what are you on about?Jenspm wrote:
God bless Liuzzi for making this interesting.