Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5621|London, England

Harmor wrote:

Let's not derail the thread.  I understand your point.

As for the disaster that originally happended on April 20th...that's 82 days, or 11 weeks and 5 days (almost 3 months).

The latest news is that they could have the hole plugged up by Monday according to Fox News.

Here's a good timeline from the start of the Disaster to June 2nd.



So if the cap doesn't work or the relief wells don't work, why are we still NOT considering nuking the well?
Because that's just about the most retarded idea I've ever heard of. Murphy would have an aneurysm racing to the scene.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6811|San Diego, CA, USA
Ok, so if the relief well and the new cap don't stop the oil, what's our next option then?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5621|London, England

Harmor wrote:

Ok, so if the relief well and the new cap don't stop the oil, what's our next option then?
The relief wells will work though (unless they blow up). They're not meant to do anything more than release the pressure on the first well which would make any fix on the first one much simpler.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6792|Global Command
We need to move beyond oil.

Look at the sky. It looks like shit is floating.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6811|San Diego, CA, USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Ok, so if the relief well and the new cap don't stop the oil, what's our next option then?
The relief wells will work though (unless they blow up). They're not meant to do anything more than release the pressure on the first well which would make any fix on the first one much simpler.
They said the pressure at the current well is over 100,000 psi.  So each relief well should decrease the pressure enough so they can use equipment that is able to cap it?

The reason why the temporary cap isn't working is because the pressure is too high, correct?

So if the pressure was too high for this well, and they knew that, why did they use sub-par equipment in the first place that caused 11 people to die?  Ignorance or willful incompetence?  Did the Government know this and allow the well-head to proceed anyway?

Last edited by Harmor (2010-07-11 11:20:55)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5621|London, England

Harmor wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Ok, so if the relief well and the new cap don't stop the oil, what's our next option then?
The relief wells will work though (unless they blow up). They're not meant to do anything more than release the pressure on the first well which would make any fix on the first one much simpler.
They said the pressure at the current well is over 100,000 psi.  So each relief well should decrease the pressure enough so they can use equipment that is able to cap it?

The reason why the temporary cap isn't working is because the pressure is too high, correct?

So if the pressure was too high for this well, and they knew that, why did they use sub-par equipment in the first place that caused 11 people to die?  Ignorance or willful incompetence?  Did the Government know this and allow the well-head to proceed anyway?
Who said 100k? My brother told me it's 12,000 psi and he works on the ship that tried the top kill.

As for your questions... it was simply an accident. Stop listening to conspiracy garbage.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6811|San Diego, CA, USA
Not an accident, I believe.  From some of the reports I'm getting there are some serious charges that will be facing BP...we're talking like Manslaughter charges for the willful disregard for safety.

But that we can do that all later.  The first thing we should do is plug the hole, keep as much of the oil off the shoreline, clean up what does reach the shoreline, and minimize the damage to our coastal regions.

The fact that we didn't nuke the hole in the first week (Russians did it 5 times prior and were the ones who recommended it to us), means 1) the government is using this disaster for political means (to pass 'cap and tax'); or 2) they want to stop oil drilling off shore (moratorium on off-shore drilling that could become permanent - note: 30% of our domestic oil comes from off-shore drilling); or 3) they don't think it would work.

I hope its #3, but if the Russians did it 5 times prior I would had been on the phone with Putin and asked him to nuke the hole and then send BP the bill.

But its day 82 in this completely avoidable disaster.

RIP the 11 oil workers who died.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5621|London, England

Harmor wrote:

Not an accident, I believe.  From some of the reports I'm getting there are some serious charges that will be facing BP...we're talking like Manslaughter charges for the willful disregard for safety.

But that we can do that all later.  The first thing we should do is plug the hole, keep as much of the oil off the shoreline, clean up what does reach the shoreline, and minimize the damage to our coastal regions.

The fact that we didn't nuke the hole in the first week (Russians did it 5 times prior and were the ones who recommended it to us), means 1) the government is using this disaster for political means (to pass 'cap and tax'); or 2) they want to stop oil drilling off shore (moratorium on off-shore drilling that could become permanent - note: 30% of our domestic oil comes from off-shore drilling); or 3) they don't think it would work.

I hope its #3, but if the Russians did it 5 times prior I would had been on the phone with Putin and asked him to nuke the hole and then send BP the bill.

But its day 82 in this completely avoidable disaster.

RIP the 11 oil workers who died.
You're off your fucking rocker.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
nlsme1
Member
+32|5680

Harmor wrote:

Lifting the Jone's Act would had allowed skimmer ships like 'The Whale' from Taiwan to operate in U.S. waters much earlier in this disaster.

Sad that we didn't take the help of other nations initially.  Did Obama do it because he didn't think we need it?  Did he do it because he wanted to perpetuate the disaster (i.e. blame big oil and use the momentum to pass 'cap and tax')?
If I am not mitaken, the "a whale" was retrofitted immediatly (in Virginia), then went right to the gulf.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6844|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Harmor wrote:

The fact that we didn't nuke the hole in the first weekd
THERE WAS NO FUCKING HOLE TO NUKE.
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6393|North Tonawanda, NY
Source.

The Russians were using nukes to extinguish gas well fires in natural gas fields, not sealing oil wells gushing liquid, so there are big differences, and this method has never been tested in such conditions.
Couple that with a 20% failure rate, and I wouldn't be too keen on nuking it either.  Keep in mind that these are the same guys who brought you The Door to Hell.  It'll only burn for a few days, right?  lolz

Last edited by SenorToenails (2010-07-12 19:28:06)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6369|eXtreme to the maX
A US Congressional committee has agreed measures that would ban BP from new offshore drilling for seven years.

The House committee on natural resources voted in favour of precluding companies with poor safety records from offshore oil exploration permits.

The proposed law does not name BP, but would apply to any company that has experienced 10 or more deaths in the last seven years.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10642556

I can't remember, was Exxon prohibited from using oil tankers for seven years?
Fuck Israel
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6792|Global Command

Dilbert_X wrote:

A US Congressional committee has agreed measures that would ban BP from new offshore drilling for seven years.

The House committee on natural resources voted in favour of precluding companies with poor safety records from offshore oil exploration permits.

The proposed law does not name BP, but would apply to any company that has experienced 10 or more deaths in the last seven years.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10642556

I can't remember, was Exxon prohibited from using oil tankers for seven years?
There is a difference between one drunk ass boat pilot and a corporate history of criminal negligence.

The BP execs should be lined up and shot. They got off easy.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6369|eXtreme to the maX

ATG wrote:

There is a difference between one drunk ass boat pilot and a corporate history of criminal negligence.
Identified causes
Multiple factors have been identified as contributing to the incident:

Exxon Shipping Company failed to repair the Raycas sonar system, which would have indicated to the third mate an impending collision with the Bligh reef.

The third mate failed to properly maneuver the vessel, possibly due to fatigue or excessive workload.

Exxon Shipping Company failed to supervise the master and provide a rested and sufficient crew for the Exxon Valdez.

In light of the above and other findings, investigative reporter Greg Palast stated in 2008 "Forget the drunken skipper fable. As to Captain Joe Hazelwood, he was below decks, sleeping off his bender. At the helm, the third mate would never have collided with Bligh Reef had he looked at his Rayas sonar. But the sonar was not turned on. In fact, the tanker's sonar was left broken and disabled for more than a year before the disaster, and Exxon management knew it. It was [in Exxon's view] just too expensive to fix and operate."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Vald … ied_causes

And no doubt you'll gripe about wiki
http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1990/M90_26_31.pdf
Fuck Israel
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6792|Global Command

Dilbert_X wrote:

And no doubt you'll gripe about wiki
http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1990/M90_26_31.pdf
I have no issue with wiki. If I dispute information therein I find it elsewhere.
But since you like wiki, here is some more;

BP was named by Mother Jones Magazine, an investigative journal that "exposes the evils of the corporate world, the government, and the mainstream media",[54]  as one of the ten worst corporations in both 2001 and 2005 based on its environmental and human rights records.[55][56]  In 1991 BP was cited as the most polluting company in the US based on EPA toxic release data. BP has been charged with burning polluted gases at its Ohio refinery (for which it was fined $1.7 million), and in July 2000 BP paid a $10 million fine to the EPA for its management of its US refineries.[57]  According to PIRG research, between January 1997 and March 1998, BP was responsible for 104 oil spills.[58]  BP patented the Dracone Barge to aid in oil spill clean-ups across the world.[59]
A Gulf petrol station in Louisville, KY using the previous BP prototype. BP purchased all Gulf stations in the southeastern United States in the 1980's after Chevron, Inc. was forced to divest the stations by the United States Justice Department.

As of 11 February 2007 BP announced that they would spend $8 billion over ten years to research alternative methods of fuel, including natural gas, hydrogen, solar, and wind. A $500 million grant to the University of California, Berkeley, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, to create an Energy Biosciences Institute[60] has recently come under attack, over concerns about the global impacts of the research and privatisation of public universities.[61]
Solar panel made by BP Solar

BP's investment in green technologies peaked at 4% of its exploratory budget, but they have since closed their alternative energy headquarters in London. As such they invest more than other oil companies, but it has been called greenwashing due to the small proportion of the overall budget.[62]

In 2004, BP began marketing low-sulphur diesel fuel for industrial use.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6369|eXtreme to the maX
Oil companies suck, however the US doesn't give US oil Companies a hard time.
Last week, Forbes magazine published what the top U.S. corporations paid in taxes last year. “Most egregious,” Forbes notes, is General Electric, which “generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion.” Big Oil giant Exxon Mobil, which last year reported a record $45.2 billion profit, paid the most taxes of any corporation, but none of it went to the IRS:

Exxon tries to limit the tax pain with the help of 20 wholly owned subsidiaries domiciled in the Bahamas, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands that (legally) shelter the cash flow from operations in the likes of Angola, Azerbaijan and Abu Dhabi. No wonder that of $15 billion in income taxes last year, Exxon paid none of it to Uncle Sam, and has tens of billions in earnings permanently reinvested overseas.

Mother Jones’ Adam Weinstein notes that, despite benefiting from corporate welfare in the U.S., Exxon complains about paying high taxes, claiming that it threatens energy innovation research. Pat Garofalo at the Wonk Room notes that big corporations’ tax shelter practices similar to Exxon’s shift a $100 billion annual tax burden onto U.S. taxpayers. In fact, in 2008, the Government Accountability Office found that “two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005.”

Media Matters adds:

Even though Exxon doesn’t contribute anything to the federal government, it spends millions of dollars trying to control it.  According to the Center for Responsive Politics, Exxon Mobil spent a whopping $27,430,000 on lobbying in 2009 alone.
http://climateprogress.org/2010/04/06/e … x-in-2009/
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/04/exx … oJoBlog%29

Your same source doesn't like Exxon either.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2003/03/valdez-crud

Point is, BP gets raped, Exxon gets away free.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-07-15 00:44:08)

Fuck Israel
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6792|Global Command
Your source didn't mention WHY GE didn't pay any taxes, as in they sold off boat loads of property and lost zillions in stock value and other accounting tricks.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6369|eXtreme to the maX

ATG wrote:

Your source didn't mention WHY GE didn't pay any taxes, as in they sold off boat loads of property and lost zillions in stock value and other accounting tricks.
So?
Fuck Israel
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5621|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

ATG wrote:

There is a difference between one drunk ass boat pilot and a corporate history of criminal negligence.
Identified causes
Multiple factors have been identified as contributing to the incident:

Exxon Shipping Company failed to repair the Raycas sonar system, which would have indicated to the third mate an impending collision with the Bligh reef.

The third mate failed to properly maneuver the vessel, possibly due to fatigue or excessive workload.

Exxon Shipping Company failed to supervise the master and provide a rested and sufficient crew for the Exxon Valdez.

In light of the above and other findings, investigative reporter Greg Palast stated in 2008 "Forget the drunken skipper fable. As to Captain Joe Hazelwood, he was below decks, sleeping off his bender. At the helm, the third mate would never have collided with Bligh Reef had he looked at his Rayas sonar. But the sonar was not turned on. In fact, the tanker's sonar was left broken and disabled for more than a year before the disaster, and Exxon management knew it. It was [in Exxon's view] just too expensive to fix and operate."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Vald … ied_causes

And no doubt you'll gripe about wiki
http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1990/M90_26_31.pdf
Hazelwood wasn't drunk. He appeared drunk because he'd been on watch for the previous 36 hours and was delirious.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6979

Dilbert_X wrote:

ATG wrote:

Your source didn't mention WHY GE didn't pay any taxes, as in they sold off boat loads of property and lost zillions in stock value and other accounting tricks.
So?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6369|eXtreme to the maX
So Exxon are making bucketloads of cash and have organised things so they don't pay any tax, don't have to pay fines and can continue to do business where a foreign competitor would get raped - although essentially Exxon IS a foreign company...

JohnG@lt wrote:

Hazelwood wasn't drunk. He appeared drunk because he'd been on watch for the previous 36 hours and was delirious.
Exactly, Exxon's cheap approach to safety, like BP (although the enquiries aren't yet complete).

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-07-15 06:49:05)

Fuck Israel
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5621|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

So Exxon are making bucketloads of cash and have organised things so they don't pay any tax, don't have to pay fines and can continue to do business where a foreign competitor would get raped - although essentially Exxon IS a foreign company...

JohnG@lt wrote:

Hazelwood wasn't drunk. He appeared drunk because he'd been on watch for the previous 36 hours and was delirious.
Exactly, Exxon's cheap approach to safety, like BP (although the enquiries aren't yet complete).
Not really. He just kept himself up during the loading process because he had an inexperienced crew (standard practice). Once the ship left port it was on autopilot with a 3rd mate at the helm (standard practice). Someone just made a mistake setting the waypoints and the 3rd mate was too inexperienced to recognize it or react in an effective manner.

Now, my views are colored a bit because Hazelwood went to and taught at my college. The 3rd Mate that was on duty at the time was a graduate of our rival school, Kings Point Either way, Hazelwood got the short end of the stick and was scapegoated, mostly by the media. He practices Maritime Law now at my best friends, girlfriends fathers, firm.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6668|North Carolina

Dilbert_X wrote:

So Exxon are making bucketloads of cash and have organised things so they don't pay any tax, don't have to pay fines and can continue to do business where a foreign competitor would get raped - although essentially Exxon IS a foreign company...

JohnG@lt wrote:

Hazelwood wasn't drunk. He appeared drunk because he'd been on watch for the previous 36 hours and was delirious.
Exactly, Exxon's cheap approach to safety, like BP (although the enquiries aren't yet complete).
Exxon was just doing what it needed to be competitive.
13rin
Member
+977|6742

JohnG@lt wrote:

Hazelwood wasn't drunk. He appeared drunk because he'd been on watch for the previous 36 hours and was delirious.
Had a .06 BAC.  Not legeally drunk but not sober.  If you factor in the time of which the incident occured to testing (liver processing), I'd wager he was drunk at the time of the wreck.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5621|London, England
My BP stock is now at $37.23, up from $33.13 on Friday. Yay me!
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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