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2006-05-02 05:11:59
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6599|132 and Bush

afewje wrote:

Havent u ever doubted your faith? with science proving more and more things like the big bang theory and finding more and more evidence its hard not to quesiton your faith. What if God or whoever you believe in isnt real what if u die u die thats it, its over no nothing for the rest of eternity. So iunno i would like to know what you guys think. It would be a shame for all the people in the world to have a crummy life then noting forever. makes you think...
I don't consider my Christian life crummy. My faith sustains me whether or not I turn out to be right or wrong. Being right would just be a huge bonus. I believe in the morals and idea's that stem from my belief in christian belief's with regards to everyday life.

Last edited by Kmarion (2006-05-02 05:12:39)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
2006-05-02 06:44:57
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6775
Spark,

The second link is a former evolutionist. Could you explain what they are showing?

Dinosaurs might be in the bible. When job comes by a "behemoth". You still arent explaining how they found it. All your doing is showing and excuse on how it couldnt work.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html

Its IMPOSSIBLE for them to evolve. They have a bunch of different parts and each and every one are needed for the machine to work. Slowly evolving one part at a time would not give it any advantage. Mitochondial invasion doesnt show up on wiki but its probably just some scientific bogus explanation.

So we know the entire universe is expanding but we dont know how fast our own galaxy is winding up?

Could you give me a link to where comets are answered and the mud and salt have been answered? Or is it just your opinion that they have?

You didnt answer radio halos or helium. You gave me links by people who hate creationists and made an excuse for them.

That link is what they are using to get passed the fact that everyone died when the flood hit.



The bible is historically accurate. Did you know in WWII the british army used the same tactics and positioning joshua did to defeat the germans in a battle in israel?

You should read it. Water is the best possible thing to transport nutrients and absorb sunlight. Our planet has a perfect amount of this liquid. Absorbing sunlight and transporting nutrients are needed for life. We have the best thing to do both.

Yeah its especially hard when its not there.

The discovery link is 500 scientists who signed a petition showing they think darwin was wrong.

So could you please explain to me how there are prophecies in the bible? And that someone came and fulfilled them. Its a historical fact that they were written before they were fulfilled and they are written with a lot of detail on how they would happen.

Could you please give me some scientific facts that my evidence is false rather than your own opinion?

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-05-02 06:56:35)

2006-05-02 09:00:46
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6624|Sea to globally-cooled sea
Jamdude

as I have said before, when it comes to matters of Faith and Morals, the bible is infallible.  Prophesies are definitely an issue of faith; it was an issue that the people of Jesus' time struggled with, the people of Moses' time struggled with...an issue that all people of all ages and into the end of time will struggle with.  A true Christian will not debate the issue that prophecies were fulfilled.

We believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

But you need to consider that God gave us the Bible to help us be better people.  The creation stories do not exist to tell us what order the Lord created all of creation.  The creation stories tell us who we are, why we are a unique species, what the purpose of our existence is, and show us the significance of our lives.

JamDude, the burden is on you to explain to the rest of the community how you can cling to these scientific "facts" in scripture when scripture contradicts even itself historically/scientifically.

Let me re-iterate, I love sacred scripture, and I believe the Bible, but I have studied this extensively.  I have made two other posts in the last week or two that you really should read.

I look forward to your reply.
2006-05-02 11:44:39
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6775
Im just asking spark who thinks that the bible was written by some guys for law or sumthing how they knew about the future. I dont think that we blew up out of nothing then billlions of years later bacteria grows into a human. Can you show me where it contradicts itself? I looked for your other two posts and only found the one bout chaos and order.
2006-05-02 12:20:52
ArMaG3dD0n
Member
+24|6833|Deutschland/Germany
Btw. this 500 people touching his hands and feet stuff you were always mentioning: Isnt this taken from the bible?
I could write a book saying that I m almigthy and write in the same book that 500 people saw me doing supernatural things too. What does it prove?

About the prophecies coming true: Assuming that those were really written before the time of "Jesus". We can be pretty sure that the guys writing the bible knew those prophcies. How hard would it be to say that he was born from a virgin on the exact date of XXXX and all the other stuff?

Really....how much do we know about the historical Jesus, if he existed. All we know is that some guy was crucified and this COULD have been the same guy the bible is about.

What I m trying to say is that if you want to believe in this you need to have faith because there really isnt any rock hard proof for it.

Last edited by ArMaG3dD0n (2006-05-02 12:21:09)

2006-05-02 12:22:48
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6624|Sea to globally-cooled sea
My first post was April 25, and that's the more relevant one.  The first two books of Genesis contradict themselves, JamDude.  In the first chapter of Genesis, man was created before the rest of the creatures.  In the second chapter of Genesis, man was created after the rest of the creatures.  From a scientific/historical perspective, this is impossible.  But this does not mean that one of the stories is right and the other is bunk.  It simply means that perhaps the stories are there to explain something other than how God made the world.
2006-05-02 12:25:42
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6664

G3|Genius wrote:

Jamdude

as I have said before, when it comes to matters of Faith and Morals, the bible is infallible.  Prophesies are definitely an issue of faith; it was an issue that the people of Jesus' time struggled with, the people of Moses' time struggled with...an issue that all people of all ages and into the end of time will struggle with.  A true Christian will not debate the issue that prophecies were fulfilled.

We believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

But you need to consider that God gave us the Bible to help us be better people.  The creation stories do not exist to tell us what order the Lord created all of creation.  The creation stories tell us who we are, why we are a unique species, what the purpose of our existence is, and show us the significance of our lives.

JamDude, the burden is on you to explain to the rest of the community how you can cling to these scientific "facts" in scripture when scripture contradicts even itself historically/scientifically.

Let me re-iterate, I love sacred scripture, and I believe the Bible, but I have studied this extensively.  I have made two other posts in the last week or two that you really should read.

I look forward to your reply.
If you have studied the Bible extensively, you would know that Genesis tells the creation story IN ORDER.
2006-05-02 12:28:53
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6624|Sea to globally-cooled sea
armageddon, there are some things about Jesus that have been proven.

Granted, a sceptic will not take the bible as a source.  However, Roman sources do say things about Jesus that coincide with Scripture.  We know that Herod looked for him when he was an infant, and when he couldn't find the infant Christ Child he ordered all children under the age of 2 to be killed, for example.  There are 5 or 6 seperate things that have been historically proven to be true about Jesus.  At some point I will look them up in my old class notes from my Synoptic Gospels class, but right now I'm at work, so later.
2006-05-02 12:32:12
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6624|Sea to globally-cooled sea
Jamdude, go read Genesis right now.  There are two stories!!!  Chapter one has nothing to do with the 7 day creation.  Chapter one says that God created man and then he created the creatures and brought them to man to be named, Then God created woman from the rib of man.  Chapter 2, God created all the creatures throughout the first five days and on day six God created man and woman at the same time.
2006-05-02 12:38:50
ArMaG3dD0n
Member
+24|6833|Deutschland/Germany
Yeah it wouldn t be a big surprise if some people didnt just invent Jesus on their own but that those stories are based on a real historical person. It still doesnt show that everything written in the bible about him is literally true like Jamdude says.

It still remains a question of faith.

About your other posts Genius:
Exactly: You cant tell me that those contradictions are only two versions of the same story or sth. like that and that the order doesnt have to be taken literally and say in the next sentence that all the rest of the story and all the stuff about Noah etc. is the exact word of god and has to be taken literally.

Last edited by ArMaG3dD0n (2006-05-02 12:41:54)

2006-05-02 13:01:28
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6775
http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c023.html
Do you believe in evolution genius?

Armagedon, the bible prophecies arent like " i can see a messiah in the next 3000 years". They told of the family He would come from, the exact date of his public revealment, born in bethlehem from a virgin. The Gentiles will believe in Him, while His own people (the Jews) will reject him. His hands and feet will be pierced.
heres a link to some of them http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/ … ecies.html
2006-05-02 13:04:35
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6624|Sea to globally-cooled sea
You are correct, to a certain extent, Armagedon.  But from a theological sense your scepticism can be dangerous.

Not everything written in the bible is literally true.  but that does not make it false!  Nor does it discredit the salvation story.  We cannot lose sight of the fact that Jesus came to the earth to forgive our sins and open our doors to eternal life.  That truth is not debateable.  We cannot prove that he actually did perform his miracles the way scripture says he did.  At the same time, one needs to consider that all of Christianity stems from this one man, and that makes up millions of people all over the globe; one cannot make the argument that this man did nothing extraordinary and still sound even remotely knowledgeable about the subject.

Now, when I say "not everything written in the bible is literally true," let me support this statement.  Matthew, Mark, and Luke all have different accounts of the resurrection.  Read all three side by side.  Once again, because I am at work, I don't have the scriptures in front of me and I cannot quote for you, but I will do that when I get home.  The same goes for the story of Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem the week before his passion death and resurrection.  Read the details.  One Gospel (Mark I think?...geez I don't remember...) has Jesus riding on two donkeys, rather than one.

The point is, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John...the writers of the scriptures were men who knew Jesus firsthand or secondhand and who wrote what they remembered.  Jesus did not have a scribe wandering around after him.  There may be discrepencies, but that does not detract from the story.  Don't lose the forest through the trees, as they say.

...now I have to concentrate on remembering to look that stuff up when I get home....

I apologize for not citing my sources.  Please give me time to find them.
2006-05-02 13:08:49
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6624|Sea to globally-cooled sea
Jamdude I do not believe in Darwin's theory of evolution.  I certainly do not believe in the big bang theory.  I firmly believe that God is the only creator, and that nothing happens in this world without His knowledge.  Did you read my first post?  I will quote it here below for you.

G3|Genius wrote:

+1 to Rex.  that was fantastic.

Hello

First, let me establish myself.  I am a 24 year old business owner.  I own an arcade in sussex county, NJ.  I graduated Cum Laude from Seton Hall University with a double major in Religious Studies and Catholic Studies.  My wife, whom I met as a freshman there, was a chemistry major and now teaches AP chemistry at Paramus Catholic high school.  Because of our majors being religion and science, I wrote my Senior thesis paper on precisely that: religion and science...specifically Creationism (Genesis) vs. Evolution (Darwin).  I have done a massive amount of research from both sides of the perspective because I did not approach the issue to prove or disprove, but to objectively come to a conclusion.

I have found, when it comes to religion, particularly to Christians of faith, you need not approach educating yourself on an issue from the "I need to prove myself right" perspective, because you will find that if your research is thorough and honest, you will probably find that there is no incongruities.

I am a Roman Catholic Christian, which differs from Fundamentalist Christians several ways, the most relevant being that we do not believe the Bible is the ONLY source of Christ's teaching.  We believe that everything in the bible is true IN MATTERS OF FAITH AND MORALS, but we do not believe that it is a science book, nor a history book.  It is a book of faith and of love.  If you disagree with me, read the first three chapters of Genesis.  There are two creation stories, and they CLEARLY contradict each other: the first creation story Man was created first, and in the second creation story (adam and eve) man was created last. 

I could go on forever about religion and science.  I love the subject and I have studied it extensively.  However, I think the question that needs to be addressed is, what is the point of our lives; what is the point of our existence?

In short, the answer is, to love.  That is what Jesus says: "I give you a new commandment: that you love one another as I have loved you" (John: 13:34).  This is what the creation is about.  St. John says in his first epistle "God is love" (1 John 4:8).  By logic, Love created this world.  This may be difficult to understand, particularly with the initial premise that started this long thread: how can one believe in God with all the suffering in the world?

Have you ever wondered why God put the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden?  The answer is, to give us the choice to love God or to not love God.  If the choice to not love God were not present to us, then loving God would be no accomplishment.  Regardless of whether that tree ever grew in a garden named Eden, the truth that the story represents is real.  We have a choice to love God.  Some choose to love God.  Many choose not to.  And if you think about it, even if you do not believe that a talking snake convinced a woman to eat a piece of fruit, our suffering that we experience can all be traced back to some choice to love something other than God more than God Himself.  Be it our own choice, or that of people we know, or even a decision people made decades or centuries ago.

For suffering, the bottom line is this: that we all affect each other.  For a true believer, suffering, although by its nature is unpleasant, is a blessing, because for the same reason that God gave us the option to love Him or not love Him in the Garden of Eden, when we experience suffering we have the opportunity to make a very deliberate choice to love God or to hate God.  And our one life on this earth gives us the opportunity to make that choice through the decisions we make and the actions we take to love God by loving one another, or not to.

Boy I love this stuff
2006-05-02 13:13:30
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6624|Sea to globally-cooled sea

ArMaG3dD0n wrote:

About your other posts Genius:
Exactly: You cant tell me that those contradictions are only two versions of the same story or sth. like that and that the order doesnt have to be taken literally and say in the next sentence that all the rest of the story and all the stuff about Noah etc. is the exact word of god and has to be taken literally.
I'm not saying that all.  I am saying that these stories don't agree with each other historically, and they don't have to.  I maintain that the Bible is not a history book.  If you look at it historically, there are some things that just won't hold up.

As for Noah, I have not studied that story academically.  I know that people are out looking for the Ark and that some thing they have found it or this or that.  I do not know, I cannot say that it is a true story or a false story, or that elements of it are true or false.  I agree that to think that Moses jammed two of every creature in the boat is highly unlikely because we are still every day finding new species of animals.  Having not studied it, I know nothing of it...but it does seem weird.
2006-05-02 13:16:23
ArMaG3dD0n
Member
+24|6833|Deutschland/Germany
The "you" in "You cant tell me" was not aimed at YOU Genius.
2006-05-02 13:20:39
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6624|Sea to globally-cooled sea
ohh hahaha my bad
2006-05-02 13:22:54
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6692|San Francisco
If only more christians like G3|Genius could be around, it wouldn't have such a bad reputation.  christianity has become so sectarian and so interpretative, there are almost too many version of the absolute truth for people to decide to choose, if they so felt like choosing. 

JamDude, G3 here is doing what we've been asking you to do for the past several pages...actually offer up his own thoughts and ideas based on what he's read and interpreted, rather than just constantly posting from creationist websites.
2006-05-02 15:46:28
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6775
I think that we were created. From the evidence ive seen the bible looks to be true. But its not THAT important to know if the bible is litterally true or if its a way to teach people. I find it impossible for people to prophecy things that will happen hundreds of years before they do without Gods help. T-Rex bones with blood cells point to a younger earth with dinosaurs alive thousands of years ago not millions. Im still young and I still havent looked into a lot of things deeply so i still got a lot of studying to do.
2006-05-02 15:54:30
Erwin_Rommel188
Member
+59|6683|Seattle

G3|Genius wrote:

as I have said before, when it comes to matters of Faith and Morals, the bible is infallible.
Then how do you deal with the ethnic cleansing found in books like Joshua and Judges?

I do not want to start a flamewar, but I am honestly curious.
2006-05-02 16:15:28
herrr_smity
Member
+156|6626|space command ur anus

JaMDuDe wrote:

I think that we were created. From the evidence ive seen the bible looks to be true. But its not THAT important to know if the bible is litterally true or if its a way to teach people. I find it impossible for people to prophecy things that will happen hundreds of years before they do without Gods help. T-Rex bones with blood cells point to a younger earth with dinosaurs alive thousands of years ago not millions. Im still young and I still havent looked into a lot of things deeply so i still got a lot of studying to do.
if the earth is only 7000 years old how do you account for civilizations older then that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_millennium_BC
2006-05-02 16:20:17
NemeSiS-Factor
Favorite Weapon? Pistol
+29|6668|Everett, WA, US

Flavius Aetius wrote:

I know I can say stuff from the bible to counter-act every claim you have
What does the bible, koran, or Torah say about the recovery of neadrathal bones?
2006-05-02 16:22:39
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6775
herr they say its between 6-10,000 years. If we evolved how come those are the oldest people? Wouldnt there be people from before those times?
2006-05-02 16:35:28
herrr_smity
Member
+156|6626|space command ur anus

JaMDuDe wrote:

herr they say its between 6-10,000 years. If we evolved how come those are the oldest people? Wouldnt there be people from before those times?
its the oldest remains of humans going together and living in cities, not as tribes moving around hunting seasonal pray.
2006-05-02 19:19:33
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6692|San Francisco

Erwin_Rommel188 wrote:

G3|Genius wrote:

as I have said before, when it comes to matters of Faith and Morals, the bible is infallible.
Then how do you deal with the ethnic cleansing found in books like Joshua and Judges?

I do not want to start a flamewar, but I am honestly curious.
The problem here is that christianity is completely based around following the teachings of Jesus and not around the acts of god.  christians (or at least catholics in this case) aren't normally brought through the entire OT, except for Genesis and a few other chapters that priests will interpret as they will.  When I was being brought up as a catholic, I never learnt about the OT until I actually took the time out to read it apart from the rest of my work in our "god is good" religion classes.
2006-05-02 19:31:12
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6775

herrr_smity wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

herr they say its between 6-10,000 years. If we evolved how come those are the oldest people? Wouldnt there be people from before those times?
its the oldest remains of humans going together and living in cities, not as tribes moving around hunting seasonal pray.
But how long are humans supposed to have been around? 100,000 years? Why did they start living in cities and recording history only about 10,000 years ago?

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