Government Motors and

2010-06-15 07:43:26

#51

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

The reports I have seen specifically stated that the set of mats was not original and not securly fitted, emphasis on the word original ... the report is kind of blurry on that part and can be easily misunderstood ... it was not Toyotas own design ... hence the procedure was not followed seeing as procedure is to install Toyotas own original floormats ...

If the US have had its own campaign on the software on those models that's new to me ... we have not upgraded the software on the European models ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2010-06-15 08:11:39

#52

nlsme1: Member; +32|5707

Okay, I will buy that. The mats were Toyota's design, rather for a differant model. However, the recall DID adjust the computer to allow the brakes to override the gas if both are engaged. A recall that was initiated AFTER someone died. A recall that could have prevented the crash. Usually, it is not just one factor that creates problems. Rather, a number of factors are involved. In this case, Toyota did not have safeguards in place. The CHP officer could have taken steps, but he panicked. He could have shut the motor off (if he had known to hold the ignition button for 3 full seconds). To say that Toyota is in the clear is absurd. The fact that the brakes were pretty much useless is ALL TOYOTA. The fact that the recall was in N. America and not in Europe is appaerantly how Toyota works. Let me guess, only the cars in N. America were deemed unsafe enough to prompt the recall. When there is a life ending event in Europe involving a Lexus that won't allow the breaks to overide the gas, better beleive you media will get upset. Your regulaters will ask why the recall was initiated in N. America, and not in Europe.

Now, I think you are getting the wrong impression of my stance on this. I am not trying to "bad mouth" Toyota, rather I am trying to show why they got so much attention from the media. It was not because the government is in bed with the media. It was because Toyota didn't practice very good damage control concerning the recalls.

2010-06-15 08:14:05

#53

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5648|London, England

nlsme1 wrote:
Okay, I will buy that. The mats were Toyota's design, rather for a differant model. However, the recall DID adjust the computer to allow the brakes to override the gas if both are engaged. A recall that was initiated AFTER someone died. A recall that could have prevented the crash. Usually, it is not just one factor that creates problems. Rather, a number of factors are involved. In this case, Toyota did not have safeguards in place. The CHP officer could have taken steps, but he panicked. He could have shut the motor off (if he had known to hold the ignition button for 3 full seconds). To say that Toyota is in the clear is absurd. The fact that the brakes were pretty much useless is ALL TOYOTA. The fact that the recall was in N. America and not in Europe is appaerantly how Toyota works. Let me guess, only the cars in N. America were deemed unsafe enough to prompt the recall. When there is a life ending event in Europe involving a Lexus that won't allow the breaks to overide the gas, better beleive you media will get upset. Your regulaters will ask why the recall was initiated in N. America, and not in Europe.

Now, I think you are getting the wrong impression of my stance on this. I am not trying to "bad mouth" Toyota, rather I am trying to show why they got so much attention from the media. It was not because the government is in bed with the media. It was because Toyota didn't practice very good damage control concerning the recalls.

I dunno about you, but I don't drive with both feet on the pedals. If someone jammed on both the gas and brake at the same time it's their own fault. There isn't a single car in the world that has more acceleration power than braking power so canceling out the acceleration when the brake is applied is redundant and silly and only meant to make the user 'feel' safer rather than be actually safer.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-06-15 08:21:45

#54

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

@nlsme1

Each new Toyota that gets delievered to a customer shall have Toyotas original floormats for that specific model installed with safety clips on the driver side ...

^^This is standard procedure

After the crash it was decided to check every car that visited a Toyota dealership to make sure those clips and the original mats was fitted, a selection of models was also included in a recall ... something Toyota didn't have to do but they did it nevertheless ...

And what G@lt said ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2010-06-15 08:31:30

#55

nlsme1: Member; +32|5707

I "dunno" about you, but when I hit the brakes, I expect the car to come to a stop. Not fight itself. Now, it MAY come to a stop eventually, but that might be after you cross into an intersection where you get T-Boned by a semi. But I guess that would not help the "safety" aspect, just my "feelings".

2010-06-15 08:33:04

#56

nlsme1: Member; +32|5707

Varegg wrote:
@nlsme1

Each new Toyota that gets delievered to a customer shall have Toyotas original floormats for that specific model installed with safety clips on the driver side ...

^^This is standard procedure

After the crash it was decided to check every car that visited a Toyota dealership to make sure those clips and the original mats was fitted, a selection of models was also included in a recall ... something Toyota didn't have to do but they did it nevertheless ...

And what G@lt said ...

I already conceded the "mats", however there was more to the recall. G@LT was just proven wrong.

"There isn't a single car in the world that has more acceleration power than braking power" This is also wrong. My blazer will overpower the brakes from a standstill. Granted, it is a diesel.

Last edited by nlsme1 (2010-06-15 10:55:16)

2010-06-15 16:29:04

#57

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6695|North Carolina

Kudos for trying, nlsme1, but Varegg has been programmed well, apparently. His level of denial is usually only seen among global warming skeptics, holocaust deniers, politicians, and Apple management.

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-06-15 16:29:50)

2010-06-16 00:08:21

#58

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

Turquoise wrote:
Kudos for trying, nlsme1, but Varegg has been programmed well, apparently. His level of denial is usually only seen among global warming skeptics, holocaust deniers, politicians, and Apple management.

You gotta be fucking kidding me Turq ... I thought you knew me better than that and spare me the giftwrapped insults ...

Level of denial? ... you guys are presenting stuff that is speculations and poorly research by the media you link from and seem to think it is facts ... you even misread blurry official reports ... you normally have a high level of quality in your posts Turq but in this thread you fall short ...

Yeah I work for Toyota but I'm not a freaking fanatic ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2010-06-16 01:30:21

#59

mcminty: Moderating your content for the Australian Govt.; +879|7011|Sydney, Australia

nlsme1 wrote:
As for the "protectionism", I call bs. This is America after all. Just about every MAJOR automaker has plants here.

Bwahaha.. are you for real? Protectionism is the reason why this thread is entitled Government Motors!

In the 80's and 90's, thanks to some heavy petitioning from Ford, Chrysler and GM, the Reagan administration imposed strict tariffs on the imports of Japanese/Korean cars. Without fierce domestic competition, the US car makers were rather lax in their pursuit of innovation - why bother if you don't have to. This placed them at a comparative disadvantage when Toyota and the like eventually set up production domestically. In today's environment of high fuel prices, large gas-guzzling cars are out in favour of smaller more efficient cars... which those makers couldn't deliver at a cost effective price.

2010-06-16 05:09:54

#60

nlsme1: Member; +32|5707

Okay lets look at some facts about Toyota.
"Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc., was formed October 31, 1957"
"As more Americans discovered the quality and reliability of Toyota products, sales continued to soar. By July 1967, Toyota had become the third-best-selling import brand in the United States"
"In 1972 Toyota sold its one-millionth vehicle. By the end of 1975, Toyota surpassed Volkswagen to become the No. 1 import brand in the United States. Three years later, in 1978, Toyota won the "Import Triple Crown" by leading all import brands in sales of cars, trucks and total vehicles"
"in 1986, it became the first import automaker to sell more than one million vehicles in America in a single year, racking up sales of 1,025,305 cars and trucks. That year also marked the company's debut as a manufacturer in the United States, with the rollout of the first Toyota car built on American soil. The vehicle, a white Corolla FX16, was produced on October 7, 1986, at the New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc. plant, a joint venture with General Motors"

Now that being put out there, again I call bullshit that "Toyota have had a hard time establishing their company in the US", considering the company was well established BEFORE Reagen. Before ANY tariff's.

2010-06-16 05:43:46

#61

nlsme1: Member; +32|5707

Varegg wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Kudos for trying, nlsme1, but Varegg has been programmed well, apparently. His level of denial is usually only seen among global warming skeptics, holocaust deniers, politicians, and Apple management.
You gotta be fucking kidding me Turq ... I thought you knew me better than that and spare me the giftwrapped insults ...

Level of denial? ... you guys are presenting stuff that is speculations and poorly research by the media you link from and seem to think it is facts ... you even misread blurry official reports ... you normally have a high level of quality in your posts Turq but in this thread you fall short ...

Yeah I work for Toyota but I'm not a freaking fanatic ...

Please provide a link to show these are innacurate.

nlsme1 wrote:
"Toyota recalled a number of trucks in Japan for a defective steering column but chose to wait nearly a year before recalling them in North America, despite a series of complains in the United States regarding the issue." Not speculation.

"company memo that shows the car manufacturer saved $100 million in 2007 by persuading government regulators to narrow their investigation. The regulators agreed to just a limited recall." not speculation

"Instead, Toyota faults drivers, floor mats and - more recently - sticky gas pedals" notice that it was only "recently" they admitted the sticky gas pedals. Again NOT SPECULATION

As for the memo, nobody blurred it but you. The INTERNAL TOYOTA DOCUMENT CLEARLY STATES, that Toyota saved $100m dollars by convincing regulaters to "narrow" their investigation. Narrow=to limit or restrict. You can speculate that it was for the reasons you stated earlier. I'll just state what the memo says.

2010-06-16 06:36:29

#62

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

What ever ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2010-06-16 06:54:41

#63

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5648|London, England

Varegg wrote:
What ever ...

You should read my sig sometime.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2010-06-16 08:14:52

#64

nlsme1: Member; +32|5707

...

2010-06-16 17:35:01

#65

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6695|North Carolina

Varegg wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
Kudos for trying, nlsme1, but Varegg has been programmed well, apparently. His level of denial is usually only seen among global warming skeptics, holocaust deniers, politicians, and Apple management.
You gotta be fucking kidding me Turq ... I thought you knew me better than that and spare me the giftwrapped insults ...

Level of denial? ... you guys are presenting stuff that is speculations and poorly research by the media you link from and seem to think it is facts ... you even misread blurry official reports ... you normally have a high level of quality in your posts Turq but in this thread you fall short ...

Yeah I work for Toyota but I'm not a freaking fanatic ...

Varegg, I'm sorry... I got carried away with my remarks, and I should know better than to go ad hominem on you.

It just still seems like you're denying everything nlsme1 presents. Your most recent response to him was literally "whatever".

I think I might take a break from this thread, because it seems to be bringing the worst out of both you and me.

2010-06-17 00:34:09

#66

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

I'm not denying that Toyota have flaws with their cars from time to time, hence the recalls etc etc

What I don't like is when allegations that have little or nothing to do with reality is presented as facts and proof when clearly the source comes from a journalist that have twisted or misunderstood what he read in a memo, report or investigation ... that's why one have to check and use multiple sources when using the media as a source for facts and proof ... and nlsme1 failed to check the quality of his sources in this particular case ...

The quality of media reports and journalists in general have been sacrifised for quantity and wartype headlines so I can understand how mistakes about what's actual facts and proof can be misleading ... just saying

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2010-06-17 04:46:59

#67

nlsme1: Member; +32|5707

I don't have to put more then one source. You can always post something that shows my sources are incorrect. Just saying they are, does not make it so. I gave the actual recall. FROM TOYOTA as a source.

2010-06-17 04:50:32

#68

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

nlsme1 wrote:
I don't have to put more then one source. You can always post something that shows my sources are incorrect. Just saying they are, does not make it so. I gave the actual recall. FROM TOYOTA as a source.

That is correct ... you don't have to use any sources at all ... and I did post something that showed your sources to be incorrect ... not saying the source from Toyota was incorrect but the ones you used from the media was not good ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2010-06-17 04:58:20

#69

nlsme1: Member; +32|5707

So, recall didn't iseeue a recall in Japan a year before they did in America. Fine, the did issue a recall in N. America, that they have yet to issue in Europe. According to you at least. They did recal 14,000,000 cars, and not all at once. These are the circumstances that got them more media attention than GM and Chrysler. All I was saying. Lexus has a new car that litteraly makes me cream my pants. http://www.lexus.com/LFA/ LITERALLY!!!!

2010-06-17 06:36:25

#70

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

Normally it is the local managment (country) that issue a recall unless it is a grave flaw with the car and Toyota globally takes steps to issue a recall ... so that recalls can happen at different times on different continents is quite normal ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2010-07-01 04:42:26

#71

nlsme1: Member; +32|5707

Guess this is not why they get so much bad press. Our government is so damn sneaky. Almost ten million cars recalled in a years time.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-201 … 02642.html
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-0 … ashes.html

2010-07-01 17:06:36

#72

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6695|North Carolina

Exactly...

BF2S Forums Government Motors and

nlsme1 wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

nlsme1 wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

nlsme1 wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

nlsme1 wrote:

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