Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6317|eXtreme to the maX
The argument isn't over Lady Gaga, awesome though she is.

uzique wrote:

my point is the "that's pretentious!" jibe is normally one used by people to hide their own lack of understanding.
There's nothing to understand, you think your knowledge of subjective evaluation is somehow better than other peoples, and therefore you must be the arbiter of all things subjective.
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Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6682
thanks yet again for just ignoring my last... what... 5 posts now on the existence of an objective field of evaluation in art.

dilbert if everybody was as genius as you, surely they'd be gate-crashing every art-prize ceremony, every film award, every music award and every book-award event with your "STOP! call it off! cancel the nominations! take back those trophies! art is subjective! how can you people do this!!!" crap.

but wait...

just stop fucking posting, honestly.

Last edited by Uzique (2010-07-01 07:17:27)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6832|London, England
Kant and Hume defining entertainment-arts and high-arts. For who? They're just words. The only people that would subscribe to this are the self-appointed institutions anyway and those who wish to. So fair enough, let them agree to their notions. But to try and apply it Worldwide or to everything in general is a big stretch for something like the Arts.

I've always seen the Arts award/prize world as rather self congratulatory, but it's their world in which people can choose to subscribe to or not. So fair play to them.

Art is subjective, but that doesn't prevent groups of people forming together holding a collective opinion and creating prizes which end up becoming big and building a prestige around themselves. You can either agree with it or not.

It should be like this, just because I don't necessarily agree with institutions and such doesn't mean that they're wrong and a bunch of idiots, but it's the same for the reverse too. The only difference is the collective opinion, money and 'prestige' within the two camps.


You can choose to accept the Oscars as a big award or not. Most people are spoonfed into believing it is for whatever reason.

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2010-07-01 07:48:13)

Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6682
im gonna say that until you have read the arguments put forward by thoughtful-individuals, you can't really post. it's a typical mekstizzle post- come in, make a bunch of airy generalizations and go off on tangental points based on your own self-invented conjecture. research and read about what you're posting about before coming in and building an argument out of your own base-assumptions. 'art is subjective' for matters of taste and personal opinion, yes, but there are technical evaluations, thematic evaluations and major discourses going on in the contemporary-present that make pieces of art (in all their myriad forms) very-easily objectified. a good piece of art speaks for itself, but also says something about the artist, about the artist's time, about the wider society and further implications. a good piece of art is, technically and methodically, accomplished- if not perfect. these are 'objective' standards that you can apply. to try to claim that an amateur gallery viewer has as much right to comment on the brush-strokes of da vinci as an expert who is trained in that art is, frankly, absurd. but that's the sort of argument you get from people that rely upon the oft ill-quoted line: "art is subjective!". personal taste is subjective, of course - what a pointless truism - but collective taste, group opinion and objective evaluation is a rigorous and methodical approach.

please don't do a dilbert. put away your personal gripes with art (for whatever reason they exist) and look at it properly.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6341|North Tonawanda, NY
In what way would one objectively evaluate performance art?
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6682
somebody with a knowledge of performance art would engage with an evaluation according to the technicality of the performance, the content of the performance and its merits, the execution of the performance regarding technique and timing etc. a person in the arts establishment could, hypothetically, explore the 'performance' for deeper meanings and then analyse them on their own merits: what is the performance getting at? what are the major aesthetic themes of the performance, and why? how do the lyrics/spoken-word/literary parts of the performance engage in dialogue with the visual-aspects? etc.etc. ad infinitum. this is just hypothetical stuff thrown out on the spot-- im not going to try to 'objectively evaluate' a lady gaga video because it isn't my field and i couldn't carry a 'performance art' evaluation, for i lack the education and specialization. that's not to say that there aren't people out there that do have it, though.

as ive already said- i think gaga is doing a 'valid thing'. i think she's on top of the pop industry and is driving it musically and visually into a new area/'era' of performance - and i think that's a good thing. it's entertaining to watch, is catchy and seems to have a pervasive influence on the rest of the industry... there are lots of gaga-clones already. she is a successful pop-artist; probably one of the most successful pop-artists in the world. but i just don't particularly 'get' much of a deeper significance or meaning behind her music videos, beneath her lyrics and song-writing. that's the benchmark of 'fine art' and the point at which song-writing and the arts cross over into a new dimension of importance and appreciability. im sorry but reading through the lyrics for 'poker face', im just not getting any deeper themes or any particularly potent or sophisticated messages. it's an entertaining song -- catchy, even -- but people should respect that, whereas gaga does her thing well, it is not becoming the next great songwriter to capture the zeitgeist of our generation.

and you can dismiss that as 'elitism' if you will, but it doesn't hide the fact that content of that level simply is not there in her work. you can claim that it's not important, for your tastes personally and your own personal, subjective judgement- and that's fine, too. but objective fields of appreciation, major art discourses and contemporary 'movements', 'schools' and emerging genres all do serve that purpose very well. and they very much do exist, whether your knowledge vaguely knows of them or admits their presence, or not.

Last edited by Uzique (2010-07-01 08:50:52)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6341|North Tonawanda, NY
Nah, I wasn't asking for an analysis of her videos.  I was curious and I have very little art background.  Thanks for a succinct response!

Last edited by SenorToenails (2010-07-01 08:52:41)

1927
The oldest chav in the world
+2,423|6885|Cardiff, Capital of Wales
13/f/taiwan
Member
+940|5910

Uzique wrote:

i think she is purposefully, as part of her 'aesthetic', trying to match-up to or emulate madonna:

there's always an element of tip-the-hat tribute in drawing obvious and unashamed influence, too.

after all that's pretty much the female pop-zenith, is it not? jackson for the males and madonna for the females.
"Lady Gaga is third-generation Madonna"
Backupwayback
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
+73|6511

1927 wrote:

Why is it awesome between those times stated?  We all have diff tastes just want to see what it is your tasting.
i just like the choreography and way its filmed.
1927
The oldest chav in the world
+2,423|6885|Cardiff, Capital of Wales

Backupwayback wrote:

1927 wrote:

Why is it awesome between those times stated?  We all have diff tastes just want to see what it is your tasting.
i just like the choreography and way its filmed.
Oh, you do? Ok.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6317|eXtreme to the maX
I just don't see that art needs to reference anything else to be valid.
People can set their own style - whats wrong with that?

In fact she references a lot, this will become apparent eventually.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-07-02 06:26:01)

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Lucien
Fantasma Parastasie
+1,451|6864
Wow, all three pages of this thread are filled with the exact same two posts over and over again
https://i.imgur.com/HTmoH.jpg
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6682
one who knows what he's talking about
one who's too stubborn to admit that there's more to life than his ego enfolds

dilbert: who the fuck is talking about 'referencing' others or making allusions... nobody. what are you even on about.

Last edited by Uzique (2010-07-02 08:13:33)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6317|eXtreme to the maX

uzique wrote:

im just not getting any deeper themes or any particularly potent or sophisticated messages
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Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6682
a theme or sophisticated message has to be a 'reference' to something else?

wow, yeah... all fine art is referential and just reaches exalted status by name-dropping everything else... right?



quit the discussion already is boring and clearly going nowhere until you're willing to concede a point to an area of knowledge and culture that you clearly have much contempt for.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6317|eXtreme to the maX
Its not an 'area of knowledge', its subjective, you might as well say only someone with an MA can decide what is an acceptable shade of blue and what isn't.

Point is, the definition of art you're using is narrow, academic and elitist.
There is life outside your ivory tower.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-07-03 01:37:46)

Fuck Israel
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6682
hahaha, well if that 'life' is symbolised in the works of lady gaga... you can keep your utter shite and i'll keep my tenure.

also ignoring the absurd reductionism in your 'argument'; im not saying that 'experts' define the fundaments of personal taste. im just saying there are objective methods of evaluation and 'appreciation' that exist for methodological purposes.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Dauntless
Admin
+2,249|6954|London

anyway the point is i'm going to see her live on the 17th of december

https://o2blueroom.co.uk/o2images/EVENT_DETAIL/447x324_Event_LadyGaga_3.jpg

https://imgur.com/kXTNQ8D.png
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6682
somebody that unattractive should really not be posing like that
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,741|6948|Oxferd Ohire

Uzique wrote:

somebody that unattractive should really not be posing like that
yea, and that's with loads of makeup. .
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6983|PNW

6:20 = I knew she was a fembot.

Still doesn't top Poker Face, Paparazzi or even Bad Romance. Would be more watchable if it wasn't so unnecessarily risqué, but I'm not really in line with the target audience. She's coming to the Tacoma Dome this year, I guess, but I think I'll hold out for Weird Al's next show at the Puyallup Fair (if ever).
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6317|eXtreme to the maX

Uzique wrote:

hahaha, well if that 'life' is symbolised in the works of lady gaga... you can keep your utter shite and i'll keep my tenure.

also ignoring the absurd reductionism in your 'argument'; im not saying that 'experts' define the fundaments of personal taste. im just saying there are objective methods of evaluation and 'appreciation' that exist for methodological purposes.
There are multiple objective and subjective methods, you're using one supposedly objective method to say its not art - which just makes you look elitist.
Fuck Israel
Lucien
Fantasma Parastasie
+1,451|6864

Dilbert_X wrote:

Uzique wrote:

hahaha, well if that 'life' is symbolised in the works of lady gaga... you can keep your utter shite and i'll keep my tenure.

also ignoring the absurd reductionism in your 'argument'; im not saying that 'experts' define the fundaments of personal taste. im just saying there are objective methods of evaluation and 'appreciation' that exist for methodological purposes.
There are multiple objective and subjective methods, you're using one supposedly objective method to say its not art - which just makes you look elitist.
And what is that one method, Dilbert

Enlighten us

Which one objective method do you think Uzique is using
https://i.imgur.com/HTmoH.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6317|eXtreme to the maX
The academic definition of art.

PS Reductionism is an essential part of objectivity.
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