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KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,948|6012|949

Like I said before, this is the wrong place for this discussion, but it is well known that the USA dropped the atom bombs on Japan to influence the Russians.  Russia was going to join in on the war in Japan, and the US did not want them to, because it would let them claim some of the post-war spoils.  Further, Russia was already exerting itself as a regional and possible world power, and both sides knew there would be a battle over which one was the superpower.  Sorry to stray off topic, if you would like to know more cpt.fass1, pm me or start a new thread about the a-bomb, and I would be glad to explain it further.
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6075|NJ
Naa I'm tight with the a bomb theory, But it stills puts my point in perspective.
nix0n
Banned
+5|6022
japan doesnt exist

pictures for the win
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6023
attention monkey alert
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6026

Spearhead wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Spearhead wrote:


+1, the best explanation I've ever heard on this issue.
It's actually a rather poor explaination with plenty of holes in it. But go ahead, believe it.

For one, she will not have to be forever burdened by child. There is adoption and the option to set up better facilities for accomodating adoption. Therefor, the mother does not have to be forever burdened. We can put as many excuses out there as we want but the simple fact is that we can do something. Not to mention the fact that there is the option of having safe sex and *gasp* RESPONSIBILITY. Rape is the only time it's not the womens fault. Not wearing a condom or getting too drunk at a party is no excuse.

Once a child is outside of her, she can not do whatever she wants with that child. If she neglects it, it's taken away from her. If she kills it then, she goes to jail for life. If she kills it when it is still inside of her, it's called an abortion and we all go on our marry way. In both cases it is her child. The theory of you can't tell people what to do with their children gets thrown out the window right there. We have many laws set up telling people what they can and cannot do with their children.

So once again it all comes back to - does a fetus have the same legal rights as you and I?
It may have one hole or two, but what he said is the truth. 

Are you willing to pay tax money for government aids to help the children of mothers who wanted to abort, but couldn't? 

Whether you agree with it or not, it IS the mother's choice.  Just because you are Christian and because you don't like the idea or abortion doesn't mean that you decide whether or not a mother has a baby.  I think we ought to be worrying about other issues in this country, besides abortion. 

Ajax, do you belive in the death penalty?  Because if you do, I'd call you a hypocrit.
Taxes would not neccessarily have to increase drastically or significantly to give kids a home. And I'd sure as hell rather have my taxes go to than than to have them fund abortions.

I am not christian. I believe there can be no proven theory of the worlds creation or reason for existence. Religion has no say in why I find abortion to be immoral. But like I said, we have laws telling people what they can and cannot do to their children. The only difference in this case is that the child is inside the mother. There are other issues in the world yes, but to someone like me who thinks abortion is wrong, abortion is a big issue.

Like I've said before, I see no connection between the death penalty and abortion. Killing innocent people and killing those who have committed violent crimes is not the same thing. Being for abortion but against the death penalty seems like it would more hypocritical to me, even though it's not.
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6075|NJ
Some animals eat their own young if their hungry. Point being we're animals and do things for our own survival.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,948|6012|949

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Taxes would not neccessarily have to increase drastically or significantly to give kids a home. And I'd sure as hell rather have my taxes go to than than to have them fund abortions.
I was unaware that my tax money funds abortions.  Can you provide more information on this please?

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Like I've said before, I see no connection between the death penalty and abortion. Killing innocent people and killing those who have committed violent crimes is not the same thing. Being for abortion but against the death penalty seems like it would more hypocritical to me, even though it's not.
Sidestepping the debate over whether an unborn fetus is an "innocent person", I have a question, which I have posted before.  Who are you to judge who is worthy of living and dying?  As I have stated before, many people on death row are and have been proved an innocent person.  Furthermore, the death penalty is not only used for those who have committed violent crimes.  And as I have stated before, I am not "for abortion," and I find it hard to believe that people here in these forums are for abortion.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6026

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Taxes would not neccessarily have to increase drastically or significantly to give kids a home. And I'd sure as hell rather have my taxes go to than than to have them fund abortions.
I was unaware that my tax money funds abortions.  Can you provide more information on this please?

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Like I've said before, I see no connection between the death penalty and abortion. Killing innocent people and killing those who have committed violent crimes is not the same thing. Being for abortion but against the death penalty seems like it would more hypocritical to me, even though it's not.
Sidestepping the debate over whether an unborn fetus is an "innocent person", I have a question, which I have posted before.  Who are you to judge who is worthy of living and dying?  As I have stated before, many people on death row are and have been proved an innocent person.  Furthermore, the death penalty is not only used for those who have committed violent crimes.  And as I have stated before, I am not "for abortion," and I find it hard to believe that people here in these forums are for abortion.
I never said taxes funded abortion. I was speaking hypothetically(sp?).

To your other comment, we have a whole system set up determining consequences for our actions. It's called the judicial system. It's not perfect, but it's what we have, and it certainly better than nothing. I don't determine who lives and dies. I am allowed to state my opinion on who lives and dies just like anybody else.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,948|6012|949

And that system you speak of, while not perfect, has the insight to allow abortions in a reasonable manner.  You are right, you are allowed to have an opinion.  That is some of what is so great about the U.S.A., is that we can all discuss topics like this without having to worry about people knocking on our doors and hauling us off to jail.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2006-04-27 13:46:37)

cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6075|NJ

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

And that system you speak of, while not perfect, has the insight to allow abortions in a reasonable manner.  You are right, you are allowed to have an opinion.  That is some of what is so great about the U.S.A., is that we can all discuss topics like this without having to worry about people knocking on our doors and hauling us off to jail, right now.
I edited ken's for effect because who know's where we'll be in a few years.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6069|Tampa Bay Florida
Ajax, FYI, I wouldn't like my wife/girlfriend to have an abortion, just because I don't want a baby.  Under extreme circumstances, yes, but I personally don't like the idea of having my wife/gf getting an abortion just because I don't want the baby.  And I am in no way saying the US government should support abortion in any way.  But, likewise, I am not saying they should outlaw it.  It is not a clear issue, the fact remains that there are some who believe the fetus should be considered a baby, and there are some who say it should be considered as an undeveloped group of cells. 

Therefore, it is not up to you or the government to tell a woman that she cannot have an abortion, because it is not up to you or the government to tell her that it is the equivilant of a human being.  It's all a matter of opinion.  And as you know, you're allowed to have an opinion in this country.  I'm exaggerating here, but it's comparable to whether or not a 5 year old should be allowed to play Grand Theft Auto (I have seen a woman buying this for her 5 year old with my own eyes, at a BestBuy) or whether or not a child should be fed nothing but cheeseburger's.  Because it, like abortion, is a matter of opinion.

Do you believe in killing, whether the victim/enemy is innocent or hostile?  Whether you support the Iraq war or not, you cannot deny there has been at least a little innocent killing.  It happens in all wars.  So are you going to tell the US government that we can't be in Iraq?  They'll say that at least some sacrifices have to be made.  And that is a matter of opinion, too.  Pacifists would call the US government murderers.  And they would say, 'that's a matter of opinion'

Let the couple/woman decide whether a fetus should be considered human or not, not the US government (and, to a large extent, the religious right)

EDIT: And to your comment about the mother not being burdened by the child, many women would not want to have a baby and then have to hand it over to the government/have to provide care for a child that may not have a traditional father.  If I somehow got a girl at my school pregnant (I'm only 15) I would sure as hell want it aborted than have to be reminded of my mistake for the rest of my life, and to have my son realize that his parents were in high-school when he was born- whether the baby is supported by government aid or raised by a teenage mother.  And under the current administration, I have realized that government aids is one of our weaker aspects of tax spending, nowadays.

Last edited by Spearhead (2006-04-27 14:58:11)

KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,948|6012|949

cpt.fass1 wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

And that system you speak of, while not perfect, has the insight to allow abortions in a reasonable manner.  You are right, you are allowed to have an opinion.  That is some of what is so great about the U.S.A., is that we can all discuss topics like this without having to worry about people knocking on our doors and hauling us off to jail, right now.
I edited ken's for effect because who know's where we'll be in a few years.
Ah, don't have such a jaded view of the US.  Sure the Administration right now is cracking down on civil liberties, but one thing Americans as a whole hold very dear is freedom of speech.
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6075|NJ
Hehe, here is my main fear that the war on Iran will start and Bush will try to stay in power using the war card. Even though it's against our laws it's still a possbility.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|6217

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Like I said before, this is the wrong place for this discussion, but it is well known that the USA dropped the atom bombs on Japan to influence the Russians.  Russia was going to join in on the war in Japan, and the US did not want them to, because it would let them claim some of the post-war spoils.  Further, Russia was already exerting itself as a regional and possible world power, and both sides knew there would be a battle over which one was the superpower.  Sorry to stray off topic, if you would like to know more cpt.fass1, pm me or start a new thread about the a-bomb, and I would be glad to explain it further.
Please don't, its only a theory anyway.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6054|Canberra, AUS

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

cpt.fass1 wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

And that system you speak of, while not perfect, has the insight to allow abortions in a reasonable manner.  You are right, you are allowed to have an opinion.  That is some of what is so great about the U.S.A., is that we can all discuss topics like this without having to worry about people knocking on our doors and hauling us off to jail, right now.
I edited ken's for effect because who know's where we'll be in a few years.
Ah, don't have such a jaded view of the US.  Sure the Administration right now is cracking down on civil liberties, but one thing Americans as a whole hold very dear is freedom of speech.
What about sedition?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Darth_Fleder
Mod from the Church of the Painful Truth
+533|6186|Orlando, FL - Age 43

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Hehe, here is my main fear that the war on Iran will start and Bush will try to stay in power using the war card. Even though it's against our laws it's still a possbility.
A far more frightening possibility is that the Hill-billy will get elected and 1000 times more likely than Bush violating the constitution in order to stay in power. You are more likely to win the lotttery than for THAT fear to be relized.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,987|6151|USA

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

First and foremost, the US dropped atom bombs over Japan to scare the russians, not to save lives...
Sure, that's a reason, but another is that the US didn't really feel like losing any more Marines to the Japanese. That's not to say that I don't have any sympathy for the people walking around with their eyeballs, popped out due to overpressure, in the palms of their hands. Or the radiation sickness after.

But of course, the US nuked the US far more than it nuked Japan...
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,948|6012|949

Horseman 77 wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Like I said before, this is the wrong place for this discussion, but it is well known that the USA dropped the atom bombs on Japan to influence the Russians.  Russia was going to join in on the war in Japan, and the US did not want them to, because it would let them claim some of the post-war spoils.  Further, Russia was already exerting itself as a regional and possible world power, and both sides knew there would be a battle over which one was the superpower.  Sorry to stray off topic, if you would like to know more cpt.fass1, pm me or start a new thread about the a-bomb, and I would be glad to explain it further.
Please don't, its only a theory anyway.
No actually Horseman, its been well documented.  It is most definitely not a theory.  Look at documentation of Trumans time in office.
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6075|NJ

Darth_Fleder wrote:

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Hehe, here is my main fear that the war on Iran will start and Bush will try to stay in power using the war card. Even though it's against our laws it's still a possbility.
A far more frightening possibility is that the Hill-billy will get elected and 1000 times more likely than Bush violating the constitution in order to stay in power. You are more likely to win the lotttery than for THAT fear to be relized.
Well we already have a hillbilly in the office.. And if I win the lottery tonight I'll be really afraid. And the pesky constitution hasn't stoped him from violating other laws.
UNDIESRULES
Member
+4|6060
I am all for abortion, i think the 24 weeks bit should be reduced but i have no problem with it.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,987|6151|USA

Spark wrote:

And what if the fetus, for example, implants in the fallopian tube or something?

That would result in the death of both mother and baby. What do you say there?
A case where a pregnancy has a good chance in terminating the mother is an allowable exception, should she not wish to take the chance. I'm not telling women to commit suicide, I'm telling them to cut out the irresponsible pregnancies. And I'm also telling the men that they can put a stop to massive pregnancies via vasectomy.

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Don't tell me that there is no consiquence in aborting the fetus because that's something that the people involved have to live with for the rest of their lives.

...

Edited to tell unnamed that I gave him a +1 because even though I don't agree with his opion, it's his to have. And if we did agree I wouldn't have anything to do at work
Er, unless I'm misunderstanding you, we do agree on that issue.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Horseman 77 wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Like I said before, this is the wrong place for this discussion, but it is well known that the USA dropped the atom bombs on Japan to influence the Russians.  Russia was going to join in on the war in Japan, and the US did not want them to, because it would let them claim some of the post-war spoils.  Further, Russia was already exerting itself as a regional and possible world power, and both sides knew there would be a battle over which one was the superpower.  Sorry to stray off topic, if you would like to know more cpt.fass1, pm me or start a new thread about the a-bomb, and I would be glad to explain it further.
Please don't, its only a theory anyway.
No actually Horseman, its been well documented.  It is most definitely not a theory.  Look at documentation of Trumans time in office.
Siding with Jennings on this one. The US didn't want a North Japan and a South Japan. Russian subs crawling in and out of Japanese pens would have been a Cold War headache.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-05-02 04:19:02)

SFCCDailey
Banned
+106|6095|USA

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

SFCCDailey wrote:

Isn't it funny how most of the damn conservative assholes that are against abortion are for the death penalty??? Kinda makes you wonder about these smacktards. And I personlly don't think MEN including myself have the right to have any say in this matter what so ever!
Conservative assholes? Conservatives against killing fetuses are assholes? Do you just wake up to a glass of retarded every morning?

Oh, and another thing. Abortion is in no way the same issue as the death penalty. I'm sorry, but it's not. Not every conservative is for the death penalty either. Not that it matters to you mister generalize everything.

One last thing. A fetus is not part of the mother either. It lives and survives off her yes, but it is still not another body part of hers. It is a serperate entity.
You've got to be the dumbest son-of-a-bitch on God's green Earth! You fucking pro-life assholes kill Doctors to further your cause. Does this not seem a little fucked up to you? And to say that Abortion and the Death Penalty are in no way related. What are you, FUCKING STUPID???? Killing is killing, dead is dead, how much more alike can they fucking be? I love the "A fetus is not part of the mother" Really Mr. Doctor? Isn't the egg that attaches to the uterus part of the mother? Does the baby not connect to the mother via the uterus and get air, food ect.... from the mother???? Not part of her, the fetus is damn well part of her until it is born! As for the glass of retard you accused me of drinking each morning, I would like to offer you a nice drink. A hot cup of SHUT THE FUCK UP! Do us all a favor Doctor Shit-for-Brains, don't have any kids and fuck up the gene pool for the rest of us!

Last edited by SFCCDailey (2006-05-02 09:15:30)

cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6075|NJ

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Spark wrote:

And what if the fetus, for example, implants in the fallopian tube or something?

That would result in the death of both mother and baby. What do you say there?
A case where a pregnancy has a good chance in terminating the mother is an allowable exception, should she not wish to take the chance. I'm not telling women to commit suicide, I'm telling them to cut out the irresponsible pregnancies. And I'm also telling the men that they can put a stop to massive pregnancies via vasectomy.

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Don't tell me that there is no consiquence in aborting the fetus because that's something that the people involved have to live with for the rest of their lives.

...

Edited to tell unnamed that I gave him a +1 because even though I don't agree with his opion, it's his to have. And if we did agree I wouldn't have anything to do at work
Er, unless I'm misunderstanding you, we do agree on that issue.

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Horseman 77 wrote:


Please don't, its only a theory anyway.
No actually Horseman, its been well documented.  It is most definitely not a theory.  Look at documentation of Trumans time in office.
Siding with Jennings on this one. The US didn't want a North Japan and a South Japan. Russian subs crawling in and out of Japanese pens would have been a Cold War headache.
Unnamed I thought you were a pro-life person, where I'm pro-choice as in it's a case by case basis and my opions on the matter should not affect someone elses life.
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6075|NJ
I hit the mega million Number so now I'm really afraid, 2 dollars richer but very afraid.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6026

SFCCDailey wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

SFCCDailey wrote:

Isn't it funny how most of the damn conservative assholes that are against abortion are for the death penalty??? Kinda makes you wonder about these smacktards. And I personlly don't think MEN including myself have the right to have any say in this matter what so ever!
Conservative assholes? Conservatives against killing fetuses are assholes? Do you just wake up to a glass of retarded every morning?

Oh, and another thing. Abortion is in no way the same issue as the death penalty. I'm sorry, but it's not. Not every conservative is for the death penalty either. Not that it matters to you mister generalize everything.

One last thing. A fetus is not part of the mother either. It lives and survives off her yes, but it is still not another body part of hers. It is a serperate entity.
You've got to be the dumbest son-of-a-bitch on God's green Earth! You fucking pro-life assholes kill Doctors to further your cause. Does this not seem a little fucked up to you? And to say that Abortion and the Death Penalty are in no way related. What are you, FUCKING STUPID???? Killing is killing, dead is dead, how much more alike can they fucking be? I love the "A fetus is not part of the mother" Really Mr. Doctor? Isn't the egg that attaches to the uterus part of the mother? Does the baby not connect to the mother via the uterus and get air, food ect.... from the mother???? Not part of her, the fetus is damn well part of her until it is born! As for the glass of retard you accused me of drinking each morning, I would like to offer you a nice drink. A hot cup of SHUT THE FUCK UP! Do us all a favor Doctor Shit-for-Brains, don't have any kids and fuck up the gene pool for the rest of us!
Thank you for proving my point. I can see you took your glass of retard this morning. If you can't have a level head then stay out of the debate section until you can grow up and act mature.

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