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2010-06-05 06:43:22
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6681|Πάϊ

11 Bravo wrote:

oug wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:


it doesnt mean it is wrong either.  i am not justifying anything.....just saying its easy to yell from the top of the fence.  now, clean up your tone.
Actually it does mean it's wrong. And it's not the top of the fence, we're the ones being fucked here in case you haven't figured. Specifically there were Greek activists on these boats who were needlessly beaten and then illegally imprisoned in Israel.
we're?  you know them?  are they your family?

please dude.  you are just grasping at straws to fuel your hate.
Actually I'm just using your logic on this one. If it were Americans your government would have jumped to action instead of just playing dead like it is now. And I'm sure that your own personal opinion would be different too. Personally I don't care if they were Greeks or Turks or whatever. I'm just furious because innocent people have lost their lives and those responsible are not being punished because the UN and all the western governments are a bunch of hypocritical sold out pricks.
ƒ³
2010-06-05 06:44:33
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6267|eXtreme to the maX

usm wrote:

we're?  you know them?  are they your family?
No-one I know was killed in 9/11, why should I care about 9/11?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2010-06-05 06:44:47
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5399|Cleveland, Ohio
you explain to me why other arab countries dont do anything about this.....
2010-06-05 06:45:53
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5399|Cleveland, Ohio

Dilbert_X wrote:

usm wrote:

we're?  you know them?  are they your family?
No-one I know was killed in 9/11, why should I care about 9/11?
i never said you should care.  idc if you care.  and 9/11 is a little different than this.  wow.  way to go out on yet another limb to justify your extreme bias and hate.
2010-06-05 06:47:45
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6267|eXtreme to the maX

11 Bravo wrote:

you explain to me why other arab countries dont do anything about this.....
They don't have diplomatic relations with Israel, they routinely try to get action through the UN and its always blocked by the US.

Apart from declaring war on Israel (tried that three times now) and shutting down their oil taps (tried that too) there's not a lot they can do.

They do supply weapons and money to the Palestinians and the Lebanese, something else the US stomps on wherever possible.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-06-05 06:49:32)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2010-06-05 06:51:08
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5399|Cleveland, Ohio

Dilbert_X wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

you explain to me why other arab countries dont do anything about this.....
They don't have diplomatic relations with Israel, they routinely try to get action through the UN and its always blocked by the US.

Apart from declaring war on Israel (tried that three times now) and shutting down their oil taps (tried that too) there's not a lot they can do.

They do supply weapons and money to the Palestinians and the Lebanese, something else the US stomps on wherever possible.
ok so..

the US and UN wont do anything..

arab countries dont really care to do anything significant...


yet some people on a boat think they can fix it?  bollocks.  they were looking for trouble imo.  and got it.
2010-06-05 06:52:53
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6681|Πάϊ

11 Bravo wrote:

you explain to me why other arab countries dont do anything about this.....
Well in this particular incident I think Turkey suffered the most dead (4 I think) and they did do something. They retracted their ambassador from Israel, canceled a joint military excercise they had planned and I'm quite sure there's more to come. I think the words of the Turkish PM were "Israel has lost its greatest ally in the region".
ƒ³
2010-06-05 06:53:10
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6267|eXtreme to the maX

usm wrote:

arab countries dont really care to do anything significant...
How do you infer they don't care?
They declared war three times.
They send money and weapons - look at the grief Iraq got and Iran is getting over that.

While you don't care doesn't mean no-one else does.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-06-05 06:53:58)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2010-06-05 06:55:40
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5399|Cleveland, Ohio
great examples yet that really doesnt do shit.....
2010-06-05 06:58:14
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6267|eXtreme to the maX
Point is you're wrong, all the Arab world has tried to help the Palestinians - lately the Turks.

Its interesting certain parts of the US media like to propagate the myth the Arabs don't care about the Palestinians, try looking at the actual facts.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2010-06-05 06:58:39
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6681|Πάϊ

11 Bravo wrote:

great examples yet that really doesnt do shit.....
Wait I'm confused. I thought you were ok with what happened because the activists went "looking for it". Now you expect Arab countries to retaliate... so which is it?
ƒ³
2010-06-05 06:59:04
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5399|Cleveland, Ohio

Dilbert_X wrote:

Point is you're wrong, all the Arab world has tried to help the Palestinians - lately the Turks.

Its interesting certain parts of the US media like to propagate the myth the Arabs don't care about the Palestinians, try looking at the actual facts.
im not wrong.  they havent done a damn thing.  israel still does what they want to according to you so......ya

oug wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

great examples yet that really doesnt do shit.....
Wait I'm confused. I thought you were ok with what happened because the activists went "looking for it". Now you expect Arab countries to retaliate... so which is it?
i didnt say retaliate for the boat people.

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2010-06-05 06:59:58)

2010-06-05 06:59:55
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6267|eXtreme to the maX

usm wrote:

great examples yet that really doesnt do shit.....
So you're in favour of Iran using nukes to show they really care?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2010-06-05 07:01:46
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5399|Cleveland, Ohio

Dilbert_X wrote:

usm wrote:

great examples yet that really doesnt do shit.....
So you're in favour of Iran using nukes to show they really care?
nobody should use nukes
2010-06-05 07:01:59
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6384|Escea

Dilbert_X wrote:

They declared war three times.
Yeah that's because the Jews moved in next door, not because of the Pals.

Dilbert_X wrote:

They send money and weapons - look at the grief Iraq got and Iran is getting over that.
Which really help the situation don't they?

I'm sure the average Pal is getting a taste of all that money while trying to fry an AK for dinner.
2010-06-05 11:32:48
rdx-fx
...
+955|6753

Dilbert_X wrote:

Point is you're wrong, all the Arab world has tried to help the Palestinians - lately the Turks.

Its interesting certain parts of the US media like to propagate the myth the Arabs don't care about the Palestinians, try looking at the actual facts.
They seem to care, only so far as they can use the Palestinians as a proxy pawn to poke at Israel.

If the Palestinian issue were (somehow miraculously) sorted, the Arab states would lose the ability to poke Israel without overtly declaring hostilities.
And declaring overt hostilities against Israel has not gone well for them previously.

So..  we're going to be stuck with the Palestinians being used as the punching bag stuck between the Arab states and Israel for the forseeable future.



The Arab states want Israel 'wiped off the map'.  This latest blockade drama is just a means to try to isolate Israel from the world, and weaken them yet further. Seems to have worked wonderfully in giving Turkey an easy out from their relationship with Israel.  Score 1 point for the Arab states.
If they can keep weakening international support for Israel, and eventually separate the USA from supporting Israel.. then there will be another 1967 Arab-Israeli war, and Israel will cease to exist.

So, knowing the above, it would actually be in Israel's favor to get the Palestinian issue sorted.
2010-06-05 16:23:35
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6681|Πάϊ

rdx-fx wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Point is you're wrong, all the Arab world has tried to help the Palestinians - lately the Turks.

Its interesting certain parts of the US media like to propagate the myth the Arabs don't care about the Palestinians, try looking at the actual facts.
They seem to care, only so far as they can use the Palestinians as a proxy pawn to poke at Israel.

If the Palestinian issue were (somehow miraculously) sorted, the Arab states would lose the ability to poke Israel without overtly declaring hostilities.
And declaring overt hostilities against Israel has not gone well for them previously.

So..  we're going to be stuck with the Palestinians being used as the punching bag stuck between the Arab states and Israel for the forseeable future.



The Arab states want Israel 'wiped off the map'.  This latest blockade drama is just a means to try to isolate Israel from the world, and weaken them yet further. Seems to have worked wonderfully in giving Turkey an easy out from their relationship with Israel.  Score 1 point for the Arab states.
If they can keep weakening international support for Israel, and eventually separate the USA from supporting Israel.. then there will be another 1967 Arab-Israeli war, and Israel will cease to exist.

So, knowing the above, it would actually be in Israel's favor to get the Palestinian issue sorted.
Can you explain how it is that the Arab states - whichever you might mean by that term - are perpetuating the Israeli - Palestinian conflict? I was under the impression that it was Israel and the US that was sabotaging any  progress on the matter by ignoring the UN resolutions against Israel.
ƒ³
2010-06-05 16:49:58
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6485|New Haven, CT

oug wrote:

nukchebi0 wrote:

The thing I don't understand is why Israel would initiate any tactical hostilities being fully aware (I highly doubt their government officials are that ignorant, willfully or not) of the substantial battering their appearance would take should activists be killed. People criticizing Israel like to portray the IDF as blood thirsty renegades who shoot first and ask questions later, but it doesn't seem fair or accurate to extend such a depiction to the current incident. Who had the incentive to create bloodshed? Certainly not Israel, who gets unfairly criticized with irrational prejudices and rushed judgements every time they have the audacity to wage a war with some semblance of utilizing their fully military capacity. Rather, it would be the anti-Israeli attempting to exploit this; as seen in the passionate, yet misguided fury of posters such as CameronPoe, it is a rather effective weapon in these organizations' arsenals.

I'm not necessarily supporting the Israelis, but trying to point out a logical analysis seems to indicate the "victimized" activists weren't really as innocent as certain people want them to be.
So you're suggesting that the activists on board died martyrically in order to make Israel look bad. Yes, yes... I can see how that makes more sense.
I'm arguing that's likely based on the external factors, and given the link between the aid flotilla and extremist groups, it seems plausible.
2010-06-05 17:19:48
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6681|Πάϊ

nukchebi0 wrote:

oug wrote:

So you're suggesting that the activists on board died martyrically in order to make Israel look bad. Yes, yes... I can see how that makes more sense.
I'm arguing that's likely based on the external factors, and given the link between the aid flotilla and extremist groups, it seems plausible.
What link is that exactly? Let me be specific about what I heard. There were about 30 Greeks on board, none of whom are in any way connected to Hamas - if that's the extremist group you're referring to. Just yesterday I read the interview of a guy who was there. He is a representative of the dock workers here in Athens and he said specifically that it was the first time he did something like that (meaning actively help with the aid etc) and that he doesn't particularly like Hamas. He also said that they were beaten even though they did not resist and that in order to be released from prison they were given to sign some papers which they didn't understand, so they all agreed that a few people would sign them so that they could speak to the press about the situation and force the Israelis to release the rest of the activists who didn't sign.

Bottom line: contrary to what you might think, the activists on the ships were normal people with normal families and normal jobs and with no particular intention to die as martyrs. Now what are those external factors and those links you speak of?
ƒ³
2010-06-05 17:24:38
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6485|New Haven, CT
I wasn't talking about the 30 Greeks, but rather the 400 Turks, some of whom are linked to extremists and some of whom were interviewed prior to the attack and said they wanted to be martyrs.

http://www.journalistinturkey.com/stori … mism_1355/
2010-06-05 17:42:07
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6681|Πάϊ
That's a nice link there... That were you get all your news? From that lady who apparently never leaves her office? lol

Anyway on a serious note, I'm having a hard time believing that any foreigner would want to be a martyr for the Palestinians, and that includes Turks. Let alone becoming a martyr in such a dumb and uncertain way, risking the lives of others who are just there to help, risking the stuff that was in the boats etc etc. If one wants to be a martyr there are safer, simpler and far more effective ways than trying to get rid of commandos with broomsticks and cuttlery.
ƒ³
2010-06-05 17:43:42
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5420|foggy bottom
safer ways to being a martyr?  huh?
Tu Stultus Es
2010-06-05 17:51:20
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6717
I think martyrs are generally equipped with more than sticks and bars. In general. They were pretty stupid martyrs as far as martyrs go.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2010-06-05 18:02:55)

2010-06-05 18:07:26
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5420|foggy bottom
martydom isnt a measure of ones ability to successfully resist, its an example of giving the ultimate sacrifice for a cause you believe in, especially in regards to whats going on in that part of the world.  people with martydom on their mind dont plan on winning any immediate confontration.
Tu Stultus Es
2010-06-05 18:08:34
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6717

eleven bravo wrote:

martydom isnt a measure of ones ability to successfully resist, its an example of giving the ultimate sacrifice for a cause you believe in, especially in regards to whats going on in that part of the world.  people with martydom on their mind dont plan on winning any immediate confontration.
In modern times though it's usually about 'bringing some fuckers down with me'. But yes you are correct.

 

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