You don't need to ask me some kind of stupid rhetorical question in order for you to appear to 'win' the argument. I take issue with both sides of the debate, I understand that it really isn't a clear cut issue, unlike you partisan morons.
I'm not partisan in the slightest. On the list of topics I care about, Israel and Palestine are way down near the bottom. The only reason I'm even defending Israel is that from a logic standpoint, I don't see that they've done anything wrong. The issue seems to spark a lot of emotion and it comes through in many of the illogical arguments that people make on the subject. I don't value the life of an Israeli more than I do the life of a Palestinian. I simply can not stomach actions which will alleviate the burden on a people who, if sanctions are lifted, will go right back to terrorizing their neighbor. If I landed on the side of the Palestinians on the issue I would be elevating the life of 'innocent Palestinians' above the lives of Israeli civilians who will then be forced to live with the threat of terror always present in the back of their mind.ghettoperson wrote:
You don't need to ask me some kind of stupid rhetorical question in order for you to appear to 'win' the argument. I take issue with both sides of the debate, I understand that it really isn't a clear cut issue, unlike you partisan morons.
I never said Israel was innocent by any means. For instance, the settlers need to stay within the legal boundaries of Israel. But, responding to force with force is entirely rational in the absence of an effective court of law (and yes, the UN is entirely ineffective in every way possible). Does this create blood feuds and other garbage? Yes. Is there any other real solution? Nothing short of capitulation by one of the parties involved will ever end it.
Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-06-04 10:46:13)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Well they did a Helicopter bording on the boat, peace through a show of force would have been better. Seriously dropping down a bunch of commando's was probably about the dumbest idea, why didn't they respond with other ships and do a boat to boat search?JohnG@lt wrote:
I'm not partisan in the slightest. On the list of topics I care about, Israel and Palestine are way down near the bottom. The only reason I'm even defending Israel is that from a logic standpoint, I don't see that they've done anything wrong. The issue seems to spark a lot of emotion and it comes through in many of the illogical arguments that people make on the subject. I don't value the life of an Israeli more than I do the life of a Palestinian. I simply can not stomach actions which will alleviate the burden on a people who, if sanctions are lifted, will go right back to terrorizing their neighbor. If I landed on the side of the Palestinians on the issue I would be elevating the life of 'innocent Palestinians' above the lives of Israeli civilians who will then be forced to live with the threat of terror always present in the back of their mind.ghettoperson wrote:
You don't need to ask me some kind of stupid rhetorical question in order for you to appear to 'win' the argument. I take issue with both sides of the debate, I understand that it really isn't a clear cut issue, unlike you partisan morons.
I never said Israel was innocent by any means. For instance, the settlers need to stay within the legal boundaries of Israel. But, responding to force with force is entirely rational in the absence of an effective court of law (and yes, the UN is entirely ineffective in every way possible). Does this create blood feuds and other garbage? Yes. Is there any other real solution? Nothing short of capitulation by one of the parties involved will ever end it.
Why is it a dumb idea? What happens when the captain ignores them and continues on his course to Gaza? Because that's precisely what he did when he failed to heed Israel's warning that went out before the ships even left Cyprus. What then? Say "Pretty please will you divert your ship to Israel's port?" That's just ludicrous.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Well they did a Helicopter bording on the boat, peace through a show of force would have been better. Seriously dropping down a bunch of commando's was probably about the dumbest idea, why didn't they respond with other ships and do a boat to boat search?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Well as seen on the video, it was a Mexican birth day party and the forces where the pinatas. You board the boat using an other boat, or does Israel not have boarding ships on there war ships(I'm being serious)?JohnG@lt wrote:
Why is it a dumb idea? What happens when the captain ignores them and continues on his course to Gaza? Because that's precisely what he did when he failed to heed Israel's warning that went out before the ships even left Cyprus. What then? Say "Pretty please will you divert your ship to Israel's port?" That's just ludicrous.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Well they did a Helicopter boarding on the boat, peace through a show of force would have been better. Seriously dropping down a bunch of commando's was probably about the dumbest idea, why didn't they respond with other ships and do a boat to boat search?
When the Coast Guard goes to board a ship they have smaller vessels to drive up to the bigger one, leaving a gun on the ship until the forces are safely on board.
There's an equal chance that they would've been attacked disgorging from a boat as they did from a helicopter, and a higher chance of being tossed overboard as they tried to come aboard.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Well as seen on the video, it was a Mexican birth day party and the forces where the pinatas. You board the boat using an other boat, or does Israel not have boarding ships on there war ships(I'm being serious)?JohnG@lt wrote:
Why is it a dumb idea? What happens when the captain ignores them and continues on his course to Gaza? Because that's precisely what he did when he failed to heed Israel's warning that went out before the ships even left Cyprus. What then? Say "Pretty please will you divert your ship to Israel's port?" That's just ludicrous.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Well they did a Helicopter boarding on the boat, peace through a show of force would have been better. Seriously dropping down a bunch of commando's was probably about the dumbest idea, why didn't they respond with other ships and do a boat to boat search?
When the Coast Guard goes to board a ship they have smaller vessels to drive up to the bigger one, leaving a gun on the ship until the forces are safely on board.
So your issue is with their boarding tactics then? I've never been in the Navy or CG but I assume it's easier to fastrope down than it is to climb a ladder up. A boarding latter can be thrown into the sea etc.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Well as seen on the video, it was a Mexican birth day party and the forces where the pinatas. You board the boat using an other boat, or does Israel not have boarding ships on there war ships(I'm being serious)?JohnG@lt wrote:
Why is it a dumb idea? What happens when the captain ignores them and continues on his course to Gaza? Because that's precisely what he did when he failed to heed Israel's warning that went out before the ships even left Cyprus. What then? Say "Pretty please will you divert your ship to Israel's port?" That's just ludicrous.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Well they did a Helicopter boarding on the boat, peace through a show of force would have been better. Seriously dropping down a bunch of commando's was probably about the dumbest idea, why didn't they respond with other ships and do a boat to boat search?
When the Coast Guard goes to board a ship they have smaller vessels to drive up to the bigger one, leaving a gun on the ship until the forces are safely on board.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I would have just torpedo'd the bastards like N. Korea. End of story.
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
Well downy I wouldn't have taken you for the crazy North Korean typeKing_County_Downy wrote:
I would have just torpedo'd the bastards like N. Korea. End of story.
Honestly, I hope they do should another 'aid' boat try to pass through. These assholes wanted confrontation. 20 of them made wills before they left. There are videos of them saying they want to be martyrs. Fuck em'. Good game Israel.King_County_Downy wrote:
I would have just torpedo'd the bastards like N. Korea. End of story.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
They did try to use a boat, they got fire hosed and stun grenaded.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Well as seen on the video, it was a Mexican birth day party and the forces where the pinatas. You board the boat using an other boat, or does Israel not have boarding ships on there war ships(I'm being serious)?JohnG@lt wrote:
Why is it a dumb idea? What happens when the captain ignores them and continues on his course to Gaza? Because that's precisely what he did when he failed to heed Israel's warning that went out before the ships even left Cyprus. What then? Say "Pretty please will you divert your ship to Israel's port?" That's just ludicrous.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Well they did a Helicopter boarding on the boat, peace through a show of force would have been better. Seriously dropping down a bunch of commando's was probably about the dumbest idea, why didn't they respond with other ships and do a boat to boat search?
When the Coast Guard goes to board a ship they have smaller vessels to drive up to the bigger one, leaving a gun on the ship until the forces are safely on board.
Tu Stultus Es
They definitely (well some of them) wanted something like this to happen. Does that make their cause any more wrong though, even if they were willing to die for it. It makes them kinda crazy sure, but it doesn't exactly validate Israel or show that they're wrong and Israel is right/good.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Honestly, I hope they do should another 'aid' boat try to pass through. These assholes wanted confrontation. 20 of them made wills before they left. There are videos of them saying they want to be martyrs. Fuck em'. Good game Israel.King_County_Downy wrote:
I would have just torpedo'd the bastards like N. Korea. End of story.
Yes very much so, that was the cause of death. Boat to boat they could have had them "Covered" and shown military force instead of being forced to use it. Instead of being dropped down into a boat of people clubbing them, they could have actually used the "Paint balls" to disperse the crowd first and then properly boarded it's tactics. The whole thing is really just disgusting and I'm not sure if I"m for them boarding at all, but there not my countries. Also if they resisted the boarding they might have dumped some cargo.JohnG@lt wrote:
So your issue is with their boarding tactics then? I've never been in the Navy or CG but I assume it's easier to fastrope down than it is to climb a ladder up. A boarding latter can be thrown into the sea etc.cpt.fass1 wrote:
Well as seen on the video, it was a Mexican birth day party and the forces where the pinatas. You board the boat using an other boat, or does Israel not have boarding ships on there war ships(I'm being serious)?JohnG@lt wrote:
Why is it a dumb idea? What happens when the captain ignores them and continues on his course to Gaza? Because that's precisely what he did when he failed to heed Israel's warning that went out before the ships even left Cyprus. What then? Say "Pretty please will you divert your ship to Israel's port?" That's just ludicrous.
When the Coast Guard goes to board a ship they have smaller vessels to drive up to the bigger one, leaving a gun on the ship until the forces are safely on board.
Fire Hosed and stun grenade you say? That should have been meet with either A. Force B. disabling the boat or C. getting a third country party involved.
Last edited by cpt.fass1 (2010-06-04 11:42:05)
itll be like me showing my face around my old gangbanger friends and then wondering why I got stabbed 20 times in the gut.
Tu Stultus Es
When a guy says he's gonna achieve martyrdom by blowing up a market full of innocent people (or dropping a grenade after dying in CoD) that's just bullshit, but if someone says they don't mind dying/being a martyr for a cause like running the blockade on Gaza I'm gonna think they're a bunch of crazies but it's not in the same league as militant/terrorist. But I think people have now grown accustomed to thinking that people who say they're willing to die for a cause as being an extremist (unless they're part of the military or something, then they're just a hero)
thats a stretch mek.
Tu Stultus Es
Paintballs to disperse martyr minded nutjobs?
Those things sting like a bitch.
The end result is the same whether they break the blockade or strap ten pounds of C4 to their chest and run into a market. If they break the blockade they are simply helping others to kill instead of pulling the trigger themselves.Mekstizzle wrote:
When a guy says he's gonna achieve martyrdom by blowing up a market full of innocent people (or dropping a grenade after dying in CoD) that's just bullshit, but if someone says they don't mind dying/being a martyr for a cause like running the blockade on Gaza I'm gonna think they're a bunch of crazies but it's not in the same league as militant/terrorist. But I think people have now grown accustomed to thinking that people who say they're willing to die for a cause as being an extremist (unless they're part of the military or something, then they're just a hero)
Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-06-04 11:44:15)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
they should have done that less than lethal sonic vibration thing they use on pirates.
Tu Stultus Es
Do you remember the stupid radiation thing they tried in Iraq? It was supposed to produce a burning sensation on anyone that stood in front of it and disperse crowds by making them uncomfortable. I think the thing broke every time they tried using iteleven bravo wrote:
they should have done that less than lethal sonic vibration thing they use on pirates.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Well then maybe they should have left crazies at home and not fought back when the IDF boarded them. This shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. Israel tried to get the Turks to forbid the vessels from undocking. Turkey did nothing. The aid group is a pro-palestine/hamas organization. It wasn't like the suiciders were wearing orange blazers apart from the rest of the crew. Nah, the 'aid' group wanted something like this to happen, another case of 'big bad bully Israel'.Mekstizzle wrote:
They definitely (well some of them) wanted something like this to happen. Does that make their cause any more wrong though, even if they were willing to die for it. It makes them kinda crazy sure, but it doesn't exactly validate Israel or show that they're wrong and Israel is right/good.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Honestly, I hope they do should another 'aid' boat try to pass through. These assholes wanted confrontation. 20 of them made wills before they left. There are videos of them saying they want to be martyrs. Fuck em'. Good game Israel.King_County_Downy wrote:
I would have just torpedo'd the bastards like N. Korea. End of story.
As to right or wrong, a blockade is a blockade you don't just crash through them without consequences. Israel has every right to take steps to insure its safety. IMO, pulling outta Gaza was one of the worst mistakes they could have made. How were they rewarded for this action? With thousands of rockets. Aid my ass, these people want Israel exterminated. Antisemitism isn't cool in my book.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Helos need to be equipped with ADS.
If you've played enough paintball (I've played a fair amount of indoor), you get used to it. The commando's likely had the pressure up'ed, but shouldn't be that much of an issue against "hardened" would be martyrs.13/f/taiwan wrote:
Those things sting like a bitch.