Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6743|SE London

M.O.A.B wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Yeah, running a blockade is the safest thing in the world to do
Well someone has to attempt it, in the name of human decency. The beauty of this one is that they may be sailing to Gaza via Egyptian territorial waters - an 'early' move might have additional repercussions for Hosni 'The Cunt' Mubarak.
The best approach would be to pressure the Arab nations into disarming Hamas completely, then the blockade would fall.

Steaming into a military force that frankly doesn't piss about with its threats its not the smartest way to go about earning any kind of freedom or rights for the Pals, it just fans the flames and incites hatred when things kick off.
This is exactly the way to help. Best way possible.

Israel is becoming increasingly isolated on the world stage due to these sorts of acts. Greater international pressure on Israel is the only way this will ever be resolved (which of course the US is the greatest obstacle to). Anything that hastens the shift of international public opinion against these sort of acts by Israel is the best way of creating the right environment for peace.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5520|London, England

CameronPoe wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

And where would the Israelis who were born there go now? Israel is their home. It would be just like if South Africa had kicked out all the white people who lived there as soon as Mandella took power.

Israel is not going away.
Fail. I never said anything about disbanding Israel. Israel debate mistake 101. Israel is an unfortunate reality and the mess has to be dealt with in a reasonable manner. Those born there are prisoners of their forefathers mistakes. A two state solution along 67 borders has to be the outcome.
You may not have said it, but your dislike of Israel stems from something that happened well before you were even born.

Two state option is actually the worst that could happen. It would prolong this conflict indefinitely. Israel needs to officially annex what little there is of Palestine and grant the Palestinians full citizenship rights. This self determination bullshit that Wilson foisted upon the world has caused more wars over the past century than anything else.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6717

JohnG@lt wrote:

You may not have said it, but your dislike of Israel stems from something that happened well before you were even born.

Two state option is actually the worst that could happen. It would prolong this conflict indefinitely. Israel needs to officially annex what little there is of Palestine and grant the Palestinians full citizenship rights. This self determination bullshit that Wilson foisted upon the world has caused more wars over the past century than anything else.
Today's injustices are the product of events that took place in posterity no matter where or what the situation. My dislike of Israel is based on a long held deep interest in that particular conflict. My interest was such that it drove me to visit the place to get first hand experience (albeit merely as a tourist which can only give limited exposure). The two state solution is the only way forward. Israel is a very thinly veiled racist state and the bad blood that exists between them and the Palestinians precludes any possibility of a singel state solution - that's saying nothing of the fact that it would be a demographic death knell for the 'racial purity' of their nation (now where have I heard that kind of terminology...). Israel is terrified of a single state solution, hence why they pulled out of Gaza. Absorbing 1.5 million Gazan Arabs breeding much faster than them was not an appetising thought. Seriously, a single state solution is ludicrous. It would be great for the Palestinians, but no: ludicrous.

PS To rephrase, I actually enjoyed Israel and the Jewish culture - it's not really Israel I dislike: more like Zionism, settler mentality and their government/military.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2010-06-03 12:49:47)

rdx-fx
...
+955|6753

Mekstizzle wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Why don't they take the aid shipments through the usual overland checkpoints, or the usual ports?
Because that would be seen as legitimising the blockade and Israel's illegal actions and all that
So, we're right back to using the Palestinian civilians as pawns on a political chessboard, rather than actually helping them?

If they actually gave a damn about the Palestinians, they'd send the aid through whatever channel would allow it to most efficiently get to the Palestinian civilians.  Fuck the politics, fuck the media grandstanding - get the food, medicine, and life-sustaining essentials to the civilians. And fuck Hamas, and their funding from other Arab states - they are just using the Palestinians as a disposable proxy pawn.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5520|London, England

rdx-fx wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Why don't they take the aid shipments through the usual overland checkpoints, or the usual ports?
Because that would be seen as legitimising the blockade and Israel's illegal actions and all that
So, we're right back to using the Palestinian civilians as pawns on a political chessboard, rather than actually helping them?

If they actually gave a damn about the Palestinians, they'd send the aid through whatever channel would allow it to most efficiently get to the Palestinian civilians.  Fuck the politics, fuck the media grandstanding - get the food, medicine, and life-sustaining essentials to the civilians. And fuck Hamas, and their funding from other Arab states - they are just using the Palestinians as a disposable proxy pawn.
100% correct. No one gives a fuck about the Palestinians, especially other Arab nations. Palestinians are viewed as dogs among the rest of the Arab population. They're equivalent to our white trash.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6315|what

JohnG@lt wrote:

100% correct. No one gives a fuck about the Palestinians, especially other Arab nations. Palestinians are viewed as dogs among the rest of the Arab population. They're equivalent to our white trash.
That doesn't make Israeli's actions right.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6783|London, England

rdx-fx wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Why don't they take the aid shipments through the usual overland checkpoints, or the usual ports?
Because that would be seen as legitimising the blockade and Israel's illegal actions and all that
So, we're right back to using the Palestinian civilians as pawns on a political chessboard, rather than actually helping them?

If they actually gave a damn about the Palestinians, they'd send the aid through whatever channel would allow it to most efficiently get to the Palestinian civilians.  Fuck the politics, fuck the media grandstanding - get the food, medicine, and life-sustaining essentials to the civilians. And fuck Hamas, and their funding from other Arab states - they are just using the Palestinians as a disposable proxy pawn.
Because you're thinking of the Palestinians short term, for them maybe it's more long term than that, there's more to it than simply handing out aid. No doubt there's still political wrangling and all that nonsense too.

Nothing you said justifies Israels actions whatsoever, I don't know your angle.

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2010-06-03 13:44:30)

Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6783|London, England
I don't really even see how wanting the Israeli blockade removed on Gaza and such is using the Palestinians as political pawns. It's in their interest to have the blockade removed more than anyone elses really. Like I said, there's no use legitimising the blockade by going through the Israeli channels. That doesn't help anyone in the long term. Of course this flotilla was a political message, and trolling, and Israel easily fell for it, and it all worked. But that doesn't really take away anything from the issues at hand...

But yeah, I think it's stupid how Egypt decides to join the Israeli's in strangling Gaza. Israel can strangle Gaza all it wants but they should be able to look to Egypt for assistance, and Israel shouldn't be allowed to control Gaza's airspace/seaspace, that's illegal too. By all means close the land borders and put up giant walls between Israel/Gaza but I think controlling the airspace/seaspace is rather illegal.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5520|London, England

Mekstizzle wrote:

I don't really even see how wanting the Israeli blockade removed on Gaza and such is using the Palestinians as political pawns. It's in their interest to have the blockade removed more than anyone elses really. Like I said, there's no use legitimising the blockade by going through the Israeli channels. That doesn't help anyone in the long term. Of course this flotilla was a political message, and trolling, and Israel easily fell for it, and it all worked. But that doesn't really take away anything from the issues at hand...

But yeah, I think it's stupid how Egypt decides to join the Israeli's in strangling Gaza. Israel can strangle Gaza all it wants but they should be able to look to Egypt for assistance, and Israel shouldn't be allowed to control Gaza's airspace/seaspace, that's illegal too. By all means close the land borders and put up giant walls between Israel/Gaza but I think controlling the airspace/seaspace is rather illegal.
Naval blockade is one of the oldest strategies in the book. It's also been the prevailing strategy for Great Britain throughout it's history so a Brit denouncing a naval blockade is kind of... farcical.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6783|London, England
Nice, I suppose you're gonna hate on me for disliking beheadings and hangings too because Britain did that all the time also. These are different times

Have you got anything worthy to say besides something dumb like that, that still doesn't justify Israel's actions and it doesn't really say anything about the actions of the flotilla either
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6811

Galt, are you drunk? I've never seen such dubious debating from you. You're normally a bastion of logic and facts in the disorganised mess that is D&ST!
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6928|UK

CameronPoe wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Sounds more like a dick move tbh.

Essentially putting people into a dangerous situation with lives at stake just to show up Israel.
They elected to put themselves in that situation and at heavy cost won an impressive and badly needed PR victory over Israel. Personally with respect to the last boat, the Irish vessel the MV Rachel Corrie, I hope that the diplomatic pressure brought to bear on Israel by our prime minister will mean that they actually get to fully discharge their cargo as planned.
Now your supporting martyrdom? Why doesn't that surprise me...

The organizers knew all to well that this was going to happen. They purposely sacrificed peoples lives to get a PR victory. Criticising these people is not pro-Israeli - it's a duty to anyone with principles and morality.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6268|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

So? Most of the buildings in the region are made from mud brick anyway.
Your ignorance knows no bounds.
Suggest you look into the subject before you write about it.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-06-03 18:41:50)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6681|Πάϊ

FEOS wrote:

Under international law, a sovereign nation can legally enforce sanctions and blockade another with whom it is engaged in a hostile action. Hamas-governed Gaza would qualify as such, would it not?
Hostile action is a pretty vague term... and anyway tbh I wouldn't claim to be a connoisseur of international law. It just seems to me that Israel is using the law only where it suits them, while at the same time it quite openly and provocatively proceeds to ignore it when it doesn't. In the case of the Gaza strip it just seems unfair that 2 million people be kept hostages for the actions of a few.

FEOS wrote:

Those activists were given an opportunity to offload their supplies elsewhere and transport said supplies overland to Gaza. They refused and instead chose to run the blockade to make a political point. When you run a blockade, you will get boarded by those who are operating the blockade. That's sort of the point of the blockade. When you attack the people who board (who you knew would board because you purposefully ran the blockade), you now open yourself up to response from those people. It's not like the Israelis came in with guns blazing. The activists attacked first.
They were in international waters. There can be no blockade in international waters. That's sort of the point of them being international. Unless of course you're Israel and you can fuck with international law as you damn well please because you know that no action will be taken against you.

FEOS wrote:

Israel could certainly have figured out a way to stop the ships without resorting to the tactics they did. Perhaps dispersing the crowds on deck with CS first, or some other non-lethal means to keep them away from the boarding party if they were bound and determined to board. Certainly heavy-handed.
Yeah, and also the activists could have refrained from attacking the soldiers boarding their boats... But apparently some people don't know when to stop when they know they're right. In a sense though, I do understand why this had to make the news. But certainly not with bloodshed.

FEOS wrote:

Israel has not signed the NPT. Iran has. What's the double standard?
The double standard is that Iran is being sanctioned for the fourth time I think for their nuclear program, and sure enough they'd be sanctioned - or it would be met with even harsher treatment - regardless whether they'd signed the NPT or not. On the other hand Israel is under no pressure whatsoever to drop that ridiculous stance of neither admitting nor denying the existence of their nuclear arsenal. And don't anyone tell me that Israel is a more reliable government and that sort of crap because the whole story with South Africa proves exactly the opposite.
ƒ³
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6315|what

An apartheid South Africa, at that time too.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6268|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

It's alluded to constantly on this forum: "Jews own the banks" "Jews got the bailouts" "Jews own our politicians".
Where exactly?
The anti-semites are coming out of the fucking woodwork and hiding behind the 'Palestinian Rights' cause.
Gotta hate those anti-semites.

https://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/Dilbert_X/08_full_600.jpg

https://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj256/Dilbert_X/14_full_600.jpg
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6486|New Haven, CT

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

It's alluded to constantly on this forum: "Jews own the banks" "Jews got the bailouts" "Jews own our politicians".
Where exactly?
The anti-semites are coming out of the fucking woodwork and hiding behind the 'Palestinian Rights' cause.
Gotta hate those anti-semites.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj25 … ll_600.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj25 … ll_600.jpg
I'm sure you're intelligent enough to recognize the fallacy undermining your rebuttal, so I'll save myself the hassle of enumerating it.
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5399|Cleveland, Ohio

CameronPoe wrote:

PS To rephrase, I actually enjoyed Israel and the Jewish culture - it's not really Israel I dislike: more like Zionism, settler mentality and their government/military.
the government is the people.  that is a very stupid statement and is not true....well it cant be true.  your bias is unbelievable and is beyond transparent.

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2010-06-04 12:43:23)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6573|'Murka

oug wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Under international law, a sovereign nation can legally enforce sanctions and blockade another with whom it is engaged in a hostile action. Hamas-governed Gaza would qualify as such, would it not?
Hostile action is a pretty vague term... and anyway tbh I wouldn't claim to be a connoisseur of international law. It just seems to me that Israel is using the law only where it suits them, while at the same time it quite openly and provocatively proceeds to ignore it when it doesn't. In the case of the Gaza strip it just seems unfair that 2 million people be kept hostages for the actions of a few.
That's the thing about the law: all countries use it to their advantage. Who would ever use it to their own disadvantage?

The bottomline is that, just like those who scream about the Geneva Conventions, it would appear there are plenty who scream "illegal" WRT this blockade who apparently haven't bothered to actually, I don't know, read the applicable law involved.

oug wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Those activists were given an opportunity to offload their supplies elsewhere and transport said supplies overland to Gaza. They refused and instead chose to run the blockade to make a political point. When you run a blockade, you will get boarded by those who are operating the blockade. That's sort of the point of the blockade. When you attack the people who board (who you knew would board because you purposefully ran the blockade), you now open yourself up to response from those people. It's not like the Israelis came in with guns blazing. The activists attacked first.
They were in international waters. There can be no blockade in international waters. That's sort of the point of them being international. Unless of course you're Israel and you can fuck with international law as you damn well please because you know that no action will be taken against you.
If the blockade zone has been defined, it doesn't matter if it's international waters (see Cuban Missile Crisis).

oug wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Israel could certainly have figured out a way to stop the ships without resorting to the tactics they did. Perhaps dispersing the crowds on deck with CS first, or some other non-lethal means to keep them away from the boarding party if they were bound and determined to board. Certainly heavy-handed.
Yeah, and also the activists could have refrained from attacking the soldiers boarding their boats... But apparently some people don't know when to stop when they know they're right. In a sense though, I do understand why this had to make the news. But certainly not with bloodshed.
So there is wrongdoing and blame to go around...but unfortunately, all the reporting has been one-sided. At least all the reporting I've seen, anyway.

oug wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Israel has not signed the NPT. Iran has. What's the double standard?
The double standard is that Iran is being sanctioned for the fourth time I think for their nuclear program, and sure enough they'd be sanctioned - or it would be met with even harsher treatment - regardless whether they'd signed the NPT or not. On the other hand Israel is under no pressure whatsoever to drop that ridiculous stance of neither admitting nor denying the existence of their nuclear arsenal. And don't anyone tell me that Israel is a more reliable government and that sort of crap because the whole story with South Africa proves exactly the opposite.
If Iran hadn't signed the NPT, I don't think they would be under the same sort of pressure they are under today. The "problem" for them is, they did. Just as with North Korea, they did. Then they withdrew from it. Israel never signed it, so were never bound by it. It's a different dynamic and a different standard.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6937|Moscow, Russia

FEOS wrote:

If Iran hadn't signed the NPT, I don't think they would be under the same sort of pressure they are under today.
you are deluding yourself.

FEOS wrote:

The "problem" for them is, they did. Just as with North Korea, they did. Then they withdrew from it. Israel never signed it, so were never bound by it. It's a different dynamic and a different standard.
no it's not. it is only that way according to those who use it to push their own agenda.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6486|New Haven, CT

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

If Iran hadn't signed the NPT, I don't think they would be under the same sort of pressure they are under today.
you are deluding yourself.

FEOS wrote:

The "problem" for them is, they did. Just as with North Korea, they did. Then they withdrew from it. Israel never signed it, so were never bound by it. It's a different dynamic and a different standard.
no it's not. it is only that way according to those who use it to push their own agenda.
Does your state controlled media ever say anything positive about the United States or is it still mired in delusions of Russia's Cold War grandeur?
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6937|Moscow, Russia

nukchebi0 wrote:

Does your state controlled media ever say anything positive about the United States or is it still mired in delusions of Russia's Cold War grandeur?
depends on the media. why?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6486|New Haven, CT

Shahter wrote:

nukchebi0 wrote:

Does your state controlled media ever say anything positive about the United States or is it still mired in delusions of Russia's Cold War grandeur?
depends on the media. why?
You sound indoctrinated.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6573|'Murka

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

If Iran hadn't signed the NPT, I don't think they would be under the same sort of pressure they are under today.
you are deluding yourself.
ORLY?

India.

Pakistan.

QED.

Shahter wrote:

FEOS wrote:

The "problem" for them is, they did. Just as with North Korea, they did. Then they withdrew from it. Israel never signed it, so were never bound by it. It's a different dynamic and a different standard.
no it's not. it is only that way according to those who use it to push their own agenda.
No. It's that way according to how this thing called "international law" works. Look it up.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6783|London, England
I recall heavy sanctions being placed in India/Pakistan specifically after the 1998 tests (and I think Bush signed a nuclear deal in 2008 with India which ended it too), for Israel I don't think there's been anything not even a word from the UN either. Probably because of the policy of ambiguity, whereas India and Pakistan have declared that they have nukes and have carried out tests, Israel is all "maybe, maybe not" and the world is content with that (whereas if another country tried that policy of ambiguity most likely it would be hit by sanctions and such)

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2010-06-04 04:37:59)

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