They prohibit the cement because Hamas siphons it off for their own uses, that's why. The aid was taken up to Gaza and rejected. Again, to make a point. You'd do more for people with food, water and medical supplies than cement, which if they'd replaced with the three aformentioned types, would have meant more to go around.CameronPoe wrote:
You really think? The aid included Israeli-prohibited cargo such as cement, so no, it wouldn't have gone through. Israel did have cordial relations with Turkey - so you can add one more country to the hate list as a result. This is more damaging than you imagine. Israel is isolated in the middle east in a fairly barren country with limited resources. They had been negotiating an oil and water pipeline from Turkey. They can now kiss that goodbye.M.O.A.B wrote:
Israel knows just about everybody hates them regardless of what they do and it hasn't changed them in the past. And its not going to drop the blockade either. So lives lost for nothing really. The aid could have gone through and nine people would still be alive, but no, a point had to be made.CameronPoe wrote:
They elected to put themselves in that situation and at heavy cost won an impressive and badly needed PR victory over Israel.
Yeah tell that to those who've been living in tents for over a year. Did you get an empathy/rationality bypass?M.O.A.B wrote:
They prohibit the cement because Hamas siphons it off for their own uses, that's why. The aid was taken up to Gaza and rejected. Again, to make a point. You'd do more for people with food, water and medical supplies than cement, which if they'd replaced with the three aformentioned types, would have meant more to go around.
Nope. 99% of the buildings I saw in the middle east were either made of cinder block or mud brick.CameronPoe wrote:
Are you deliberately being facetious? I did have some measure of respect for your debating thus far.JohnG@lt wrote:
So? Most of the buildings in the region are made from mud brick anyway.
Besides, all the Gazans have to do to have the blockade removed is have Hamas capitulate and to behave thereafter. You know, the type of behavior that any one of us would expect out of their neighboring country.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Well John, I've been in Palestine and they build modern houses there, fyi. It's a bit hard to make Hamas capitulate when they are no better than Israel, strangling the Gazans to death for political ends and stomping out all resistance down the barrel of an AK. What are they gonna rise up with - sticks and iron bars? We know how that ends...JohnG@lt wrote:
Nope. 99% of the buildings I saw in the middle east were either made of cinder block or mud brick.CameronPoe wrote:
Are you deliberately being facetious? I did have some measure of respect for your debating thus far.JohnG@lt wrote:
So? Most of the buildings in the region are made from mud brick anyway.
Besides, all the Gazans have to do to have the blockade removed is have Hamas capitulate and to behave thereafter. You know, the type of behavior that any one of us would expect out of their neighboring country.
Okay, so we give them some cement, an apartment goes up, Hamas sticks a rocket launcher on top and an airstrike takes it out. Hamas couldn't give a monkeys how many Pals are killed or displaced or how many suffer as long as they can make Israel look bad. The blockade is up because of them, it wasn't put up for any old reason. In a war you cut off your enemy's supply chains and thus limit their ability to fight. You don't sit there and smile at them and ask them to be nice. Until Hamas decides what its doing is a complete waste of time this isn't going anywhere. Israel is acting out of its own interests in security, because if it wasn't you could be seeing in Israeli towns what you see in Iraqi ones.CameronPoe wrote:
Yeah tell that to those who've been living in tents for over a year. Did you get an empathy/rationality bypass?M.O.A.B wrote:
They prohibit the cement because Hamas siphons it off for their own uses, that's why. The aid was taken up to Gaza and rejected. Again, to make a point. You'd do more for people with food, water and medical supplies than cement, which if they'd replaced with the three aformentioned types, would have meant more to go around.
OK so we give them no cement and they live in tents? We don't disagree on Hamas incidentally. Israel is helping Hamas by prolonging this blockade. How dysfunctional will this next generation of young people be growing up in these conditions? It's recipe 101 for extremism. Israel is COLLECTIVELY PUNISHING A CIVILIAN POPULATION. That is not a valid military action, contravenes the Geneva convention and, as mentioned, is counter-productive. All they simply need to do is check the chains of supply for weapons but let everything else in, same goes for Egypt. They're just being tyrannical. Bethlehem in 2003 was bad enough, I can't imagine what it must be like in Gaza right now.M.O.A.B wrote:
Okay, so we give them some cement, an apartment goes up, Hamas sticks a rocket launcher on top and an airstrike takes it out. Hamas couldn't give a monkeys how many Pals are killed or displaced or how many suffer as long as they can make Israel look bad. The blockade is up because of them, it wasn't put up for any old reason. In a war you cut off your enemy's supply chains and thus limit their ability to fight. You don't sit there and smile at them and ask them to be nice. Until Hamas decides what its doing is a complete waste of time this isn't going anywhere. Israel is acting out of its own interests in security, because if it wasn't you could be seeing in Israeli towns what you see in Iraqi ones.CameronPoe wrote:
Yeah tell that to those who've been living in tents for over a year. Did you get an empathy/rationality bypass?M.O.A.B wrote:
They prohibit the cement because Hamas siphons it off for their own uses, that's why. The aid was taken up to Gaza and rejected. Again, to make a point. You'd do more for people with food, water and medical supplies than cement, which if they'd replaced with the three aformentioned types, would have meant more to go around.
GG reading comprehension. I was backing up Trotsky; he said it was piracy and is correct. I didn't say anything about defending themselves.JohnG@lt wrote:
And since when does 'international law' usurp a countries right to defend itself?ghettoperson wrote:
And once more Godwins Law is proven. Since you can't win the argument with logic, you may as well just call everyone Hitler loving anti-semites. Honestly Galt, for someone who comes off as being smart you can be unbelievably stupid sometimes.JohnG@lt wrote:
How on earth is it piracy?
And how else would you inspect a ship and force it to change course? Should they have fired a shot over the bow instead? What happens if they ignore the shot? Do you sink the ship then? Sinking the ship would cause far more loss of life than the six people who died, no?
People are acting absolutely retarded about this whole thing. The anti-semites are coming out of the fucking woodwork and hiding behind the 'Palestinian Rights' cause. It's alluded to constantly on this forum: "Jews own the banks" "Jews got the bailouts" "Jews own our politicians". Christ sakes, these are the same fucking arguments that Hitler made! I really don't understand it at all. I had a lot of Jewish friends growing up and even dated a Jewish girl in high school for three years. Sure, they're clannish and have customs different from 'normal' people but who cares? Italians are weird too. So are the Irish and Mexicans and everyone else. Fuck, lets all gang up on the super minority because they do well for themselves in life and because they have a different religion from ours.
Shit. If anything, people should aspire to mimicing Jewish culture if anything. It's a culture that inspires hard work, doing well in school, and... get this... humility. Instead, people have embraced black culture which is the exact opposite. No wonder this country has gone to shit.
And FYI, no matter who it is who seizes it, capturing a boat without the proper authority is piracy.
At least now any troops that board know that the hippies will be on their best behaviour, unlike last time.
Nothing like poking the bear.
Reminds me of the idiots that chain themselves to trees in order to stop logging.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Surely it wouldn't be classed as piracy if the blockade of Gaza was legal...ghettoperson wrote:
GG reading comprehension. I was backing up Trotsky; he said it was piracy and is correct. I didn't say anything about defending themselves.JohnG@lt wrote:
And since when does 'international law' usurp a countries right to defend itself?ghettoperson wrote:
And once more Godwins Law is proven. Since you can't win the argument with logic, you may as well just call everyone Hitler loving anti-semites. Honestly Galt, for someone who comes off as being smart you can be unbelievably stupid sometimes.
And FYI, no matter who it is who seizes it, capturing a boat without the proper authority is piracy.
I'm pretty sure you're allowed to do these things to enforce blockades.
Of course that's beside the point, because the blockade isn't even remotely legal.
Who so? I don't see the connection.JohnG@lt wrote:
Reminds me of the idiots that chain themselves to trees in order to stop logging.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2010-06-03 12:09:10)
Daring someone to take their life so they can martyr themselves for their cause.CameronPoe wrote:
Who so? I don't see the connection.JohnG@lt wrote:
Reminds me of the idiots that chain themselves to trees in order to stop logging.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I'm pretty sure they expect not to be killed. Especially with streaming live video.JohnG@lt wrote:
Daring someone to take their life so they can martyr themselves for their cause.
Yeah, running a blockade is the safest thing in the world to doCameronPoe wrote:
I'm pretty sure they expect not to be killed. Especially with streaming live video.JohnG@lt wrote:
Daring someone to take their life so they can martyr themselves for their cause.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Well someone has to attempt it, in the name of human decency. The beauty of this one is that they may be sailing to Gaza via Egyptian territorial waters - an 'early' move might have additional repercussions for Hosni 'The Cunt' Mubarak.JohnG@lt wrote:
Yeah, running a blockade is the safest thing in the world to doCameronPoe wrote:
I'm pretty sure they expect not to be killed. Especially with streaming live video.JohnG@lt wrote:
Daring someone to take their life so they can martyr themselves for their cause.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2010-06-03 12:16:34)
See? Now this is what I don't get. Gaza elected Hamas to rule them, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Electing Hamas led directly to the invasion of and occupation of Gaza. Why on earth should anyone feel vaguely sorry for the people living there? They did it to themselves.CameronPoe wrote:
Well someone has to attempt it, in the name of human decency. The beauty of this one is that they may be sailing to Gaza via Egyptian territorial waters - an 'early' move might have additional repercussions for Hosni 'The Cunt' Mubarak.JohnG@lt wrote:
Yeah, running a blockade is the safest thing in the world to doCameronPoe wrote:
I'm pretty sure they expect not to be killed. Especially with streaming live video.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
The best approach would be to pressure the Arab nations into disarming Hamas completely, then the blockade would fall.CameronPoe wrote:
Well someone has to attempt it, in the name of human decency. The beauty of this one is that they may be sailing to Gaza via Egyptian territorial waters - an 'early' move might have additional repercussions for Hosni 'The Cunt' Mubarak.JohnG@lt wrote:
Yeah, running a blockade is the safest thing in the world to doCameronPoe wrote:
I'm pretty sure they expect not to be killed. Especially with streaming live video.
Steaming into a military force that frankly doesn't piss about with its threats its not the smartest way to go about earning any kind of freedom or rights for the Pals, it just fans the flames and incites hatred when things kick off.
Why don't they take the aid shipments through the usual overland checkpoints, or the usual ports?
In case you hadn't noticed Hamas violently overcame all political opposition (mainly Fatah) in stamping their authoritarian rule on Gaza. A majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas, like in American politics, you have two options, bad and worse. Fatah had been steeped in corruption, financial and otherwise, for ages and the Palestinian swing vote voted in protest for Hamas. Little did they know what they had let themselves in for. Many voted for them because yes, they do hold to Hamas' ideals but it was Fatah crepulence that was the real culprit. The swing vote fucked it up for everyone. I feel deeply sorry for the Palestinians because Israel created all this. It created millions of refugees. It created Hamas. It was helped in no small part by the Brits and the wider international community but ultimately Zionist settlers to British mandate Palestine created almost every facet of this shitfest we see before us today. I never wished ill on the American people when they voted in that dangerous drooling idiot with blood on his hands George W. Bush. Nor do I wish ill on Israelis simply because they are Israeli. That would be irrational. If your position held then I would see no problem in Iraqis extracting their pound of blood from any American that came within arms reach 'because they had it coming'. Now that's ludicrous.JohnG@lt wrote:
See? Now this is what I don't get. Gaza elected Hamas to rule them, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Electing Hamas led directly to the invasion of and occupation of Gaza. Why on earth should anyone feel vaguely sorry for the people living there? They did it to themselves.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2010-06-03 12:32:34)
And where would the Israelis who were born there go now? Israel is their home. It would be just like if South Africa had kicked out all the white people who lived there as soon as Mandella took power.CameronPoe wrote:
In case you hadn't noticed Gaza violently overcame all political opposition (mainly Fatah) in stamping their authoritarian rule on Gaza. A majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas, like in American politics, you have two options, bad and worse. Fatah had been steeped in corruption, financial and otherwise, for ages and the Palestinian swing vote voted in protest for Hamas. Little did they know what they had let themselves in for. Many voted for them because yes, they do hold to Hamas' ideals but it was Fatah crepulence that was the real culprit. The swing vote fucked it up for everyone. I feel deeply sorry for the Palestinians because Israel created all this. It created millions of refugees. It created Hamas. It was helped in no small part by the Brits and the wider international community but ultimately Zionist settlers to British mandate Palestine created almost every facet of this shitfest we see before us today. I never wished ill on the American people when they voted in that dangerous drooling idiot with blood on his hands George W. Bush. Nor do I wish ill on Israelis simply because they are Israeli. That would be irrational. If your position held then I would see no problem in Iraqis extracting their pound of blood from any American that came within arms reach 'because they had it coming'. Now that's ludicrous.JohnG@lt wrote:
See? Now this is what I don't get. Gaza elected Hamas to rule them, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Electing Hamas led directly to the invasion of and occupation of Gaza. Why on earth should anyone feel vaguely sorry for the people living there? They did it to themselves.
Israel is not going away.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Because that would be seen as legitimising the blockade and Israel's illegal actions and all thatrdx-fx wrote:
Why don't they take the aid shipments through the usual overland checkpoints, or the usual ports?
You think the Arabs would be any better at disarming them than anyone else? What the action does is make Israel look terrible in the global media, which has win written all over it. Ultimately, Egypt should open their border with Gaza and then Israel becomes irrelevant.M.O.A.B wrote:
The best approach would be to pressure the Arab nations into disarming Hamas completely, then the blockade would fall.
Steaming into a military force that frankly doesn't piss about with its threats its not the smartest way to go about earning any kind of freedom or rights for the Pals, it just fans the flames and incites hatred when things kick off.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2010-06-03 12:34:37)
Fail. I never said anything about disbanding Israel. Israel debate mistake 101. Israel is an unfortunate reality and the mess has to be dealt with in a reasonable manner. Those born there are prisoners of their forefathers mistakes. A two state solution along 67 borders has to be the outcome.JohnG@lt wrote:
And where would the Israelis who were born there go now? Israel is their home. It would be just like if South Africa had kicked out all the white people who lived there as soon as Mandella took power.
Israel is not going away.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2010-06-03 12:37:25)