Who owns a significant portion of the financial institutions in this country? Who were the ones bailed out? Hmmm???...blademaster wrote:
yea U.S. is more loyal to Israel than to its own citizens thanks to the Jewish lobby
Ok so let me get this straight. You are willing to believe that the men on the ships upon seeing armed commandos coming down from helicopters armed themselves with cuttlery and attacked fully armed men. That makes sense to you? How about this: the IDF needed to say they were attacked with something and since there were no guns aboard...M.O.A.B wrote:
I suggest you go and read a little closer, because I haven't said anywhere that Israel is in the right, just like the flotilla. What I have pointed out are the bits you can't seem to comprehend. First off, many of those involved in the flotilla were armed with knives, hammers, clubs and prepared to attack and brutally, hardly a peaceful selection; second, the food and medical aid was going to be passed on anyway but that was turned down; third, the commandos were carrying paintball guns with real weapons as a backup. The second they hit the deck they were being clubbed, and I sincerely doubt those doing the clubbing would have stopped before they killed them. If someone was beating me with a metal pole with an apparent intent to kill and I had a gun, I'd use it.
Israel isn't in the right for engaging the flotilla and the flotilla isn't in the right for being provocative. Its pretty obvious that when Israel say's its going to intercept you, they're going to intercept you. So the way I look at it is like this: The flotilla was offered to have its cargo transferred without issue, minus the cement (which isn't a bare necessity to begin with when compared to food or medical supplies), rejected the offer and decided to steam on knowing pretty much full well what was going to happen.
But all that is nothing compared to commandos armed with paintball guns! Oh boy that's a first! I bet it was RAP4s, they're awsm!
ƒ³
israel allows humanitarian aid to be brought to gaza (738000 t in 2009 + more than 100 mio liters diesel for the power plant in gaza). the initiators of the convoy said that the ships contained 15000 t relief supplies. that's about the same amount of relief supplies that got from israel to gaza in one week in may 2010 (fuel, gas, food, hygiene products and medical supplies).
10000 patients from gaza got medical treatment in israel.
initiators of the convoy announced they would break the "blocade" of gaza. israelis warned them. they said the convoy should ship to ashdod, where the cargo could be checked and then brought to gaza by truck.
à propos initiators of the convoy. one of them is the islamist turkish organisation insani yardim vakfi who funds hamas and openly calls israel, the uk and the usa enemies
obviously, there were about 40 persons on board of the ships who were ready for violent actions, three of them are said to be willing to die as martyrs by fighting israeli forces
oh, and why were there gas masks, night vision goggles and bullet proof vests on board of the ships?
10000 patients from gaza got medical treatment in israel.
initiators of the convoy announced they would break the "blocade" of gaza. israelis warned them. they said the convoy should ship to ashdod, where the cargo could be checked and then brought to gaza by truck.
à propos initiators of the convoy. one of them is the islamist turkish organisation insani yardim vakfi who funds hamas and openly calls israel, the uk and the usa enemies
obviously, there were about 40 persons on board of the ships who were ready for violent actions, three of them are said to be willing to die as martyrs by fighting israeli forces
oh, and why were there gas masks, night vision goggles and bullet proof vests on board of the ships?
But its still 1/4 of what they need.cl4u53w1t2 wrote:
israel allows humanitarian aid to be brought to gaza (738000 t in 2009 + more than 100 mio liters diesel for the power plant in gaza). the initiators of the convoy said that the ships contained 15000 t relief supplies. that's about the same amount of relief supplies that got from israel to gaza in one week in may 2010 (fuel, gas, food, hygiene products and medical supplies).
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Did anyone post this yet?
Activists threw stun grenades
New Israel Defense Forces footage shows attacks before soldiers boarded the ship ... (via http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/ )
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177261
and this:
Turkey, Israel near clash after terror cell exposed on flotilla
(DEBKAfile) The Turkish terror activists refused to answer questions, but by Tuesday nightfall, a few admitted to being members of IHH and its ties with al-Qaida ...
http://www.debka.com/article/8827/
Activists threw stun grenades
New Israel Defense Forces footage shows attacks before soldiers boarded the ship ... (via http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/ )
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177261
and this:
Turkey, Israel near clash after terror cell exposed on flotilla
(DEBKAfile) The Turkish terror activists refused to answer questions, but by Tuesday nightfall, a few admitted to being members of IHH and its ties with al-Qaida ...
http://www.debka.com/article/8827/
Tags: Israel Obama Pro-Hamas flotilla Turkey
hmmm....
wow. just read it all. that is one of the most awful pieces of "journalism" i've seen in quite some time.
hmmm....
wow. just read it all. that is one of the most awful pieces of "journalism" i've seen in quite some time.
Last edited by Spark (2010-06-02 18:56:28)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Anyone consider the fact that when things went pear shaped the commandos could have simply jumped off the boat? No, handguns it was...
Why should they be expected to jump off the boat if they encountered open hostility?
oug you can actually see in the videos the first guy who dropped onto the deck immediately set upon, you can also see quite clearly the outline of paintball guns, there is also testimony from some of the activists who thought their boat was being shot until they noticed they were paintballs.oug wrote:
Ok so let me get this straight. You are willing to believe that the men on the ships upon seeing armed commandos coming down from helicopters armed themselves with cuttlery and attacked fully armed men. That makes sense to you? How about this: the IDF needed to say they were attacked with something and since there were no guns aboard...M.O.A.B wrote:
I suggest you go and read a little closer, because I haven't said anywhere that Israel is in the right, just like the flotilla. What I have pointed out are the bits you can't seem to comprehend. First off, many of those involved in the flotilla were armed with knives, hammers, clubs and prepared to attack and brutally, hardly a peaceful selection; second, the food and medical aid was going to be passed on anyway but that was turned down; third, the commandos were carrying paintball guns with real weapons as a backup. The second they hit the deck they were being clubbed, and I sincerely doubt those doing the clubbing would have stopped before they killed them. If someone was beating me with a metal pole with an apparent intent to kill and I had a gun, I'd use it.
Israel isn't in the right for engaging the flotilla and the flotilla isn't in the right for being provocative. Its pretty obvious that when Israel say's its going to intercept you, they're going to intercept you. So the way I look at it is like this: The flotilla was offered to have its cargo transferred without issue, minus the cement (which isn't a bare necessity to begin with when compared to food or medical supplies), rejected the offer and decided to steam on knowing pretty much full well what was going to happen.
But all that is nothing compared to commandos armed with paintball guns! Oh boy that's a first! I bet it was RAP4s, they're awsm!
Paintballs? This just gets more and more bizarre.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Yes... brilliant idea. Jump over the side of a large boat with its engines on. Welcome to a good chance of being sucked into the propellers.CameronPoe wrote:
Anyone consider the fact that when things went pear shaped the commandos could have simply jumped off the boat? No, handguns it was...
Doesn't make sense because it was, quite frankly, a stupid thing to do. Doesn't change the fact that they were actively waiting for them on the deck with weapons at the ready.oug wrote:
Ok so let me get this straight. You are willing to believe that the men on the ships upon seeing armed commandos coming down from helicopters armed themselves with cuttlery and attacked fully armed men. That makes sense to you? How about this: the IDF needed to say they were attacked with something and since there were no guns aboard...M.O.A.B wrote:
I suggest you go and read a little closer, because I haven't said anywhere that Israel is in the right, just like the flotilla. What I have pointed out are the bits you can't seem to comprehend. First off, many of those involved in the flotilla were armed with knives, hammers, clubs and prepared to attack and brutally, hardly a peaceful selection; second, the food and medical aid was going to be passed on anyway but that was turned down; third, the commandos were carrying paintball guns with real weapons as a backup. The second they hit the deck they were being clubbed, and I sincerely doubt those doing the clubbing would have stopped before they killed them. If someone was beating me with a metal pole with an apparent intent to kill and I had a gun, I'd use it.
Israel isn't in the right for engaging the flotilla and the flotilla isn't in the right for being provocative. Its pretty obvious that when Israel say's its going to intercept you, they're going to intercept you. So the way I look at it is like this: The flotilla was offered to have its cargo transferred without issue, minus the cement (which isn't a bare necessity to begin with when compared to food or medical supplies), rejected the offer and decided to steam on knowing pretty much full well what was going to happen.
But all that is nothing compared to commandos armed with paintball guns! Oh boy that's a first! I bet it was RAP4s, they're awsm!
Or if you still don't believe it, watch this.
A sidearm is for defence and that's what they used it for.CameronPoe wrote:
Anyone consider the fact that when things went pear shaped the commandos could have simply jumped off the boat? No, handguns it was...
Anyone here seen any footage from the journalists who were part of the aid convoy?
No.
Wonder why...
No.
Wonder why...
LOL! Blocking a cargo/cruise ship. Yeah that's a new one....cl4u53w1t2 wrote:
i'm very pro-israel so your nazi reference failsm3thod wrote:
go invade poland nazi wankstain
& next time sign your karma insults you pussy.
however, i don't have a one sided view. i admit that israel overreacted and used disproportional force (they could have stopped the ships by blocking them or, as a last resort, by destroying the steering gear)
oh, and i don't have to sign my karma insults. you definitely know it's from me, ranjid
Destroying the steering on a cargo/cruise ship whilst its within close distance to others, again brilliant idea, that couldn't end badly.
Under international law, a sovereign nation can legally enforce sanctions and blockade another with whom it is engaged in a hostile action. Hamas-governed Gaza would qualify as such, would it not?oug wrote:
The Israelis are running an illegal blockade on the Gaza strip
Those activists were given an opportunity to offload their supplies elsewhere and transport said supplies overland to Gaza. They refused and instead chose to run the blockade to make a political point. When you run a blockade, you will get boarded by those who are operating the blockade. That's sort of the point of the blockade. When you attack the people who board (who you knew would board because you purposefully ran the blockade), you now open yourself up to response from those people. It's not like the Israelis came in with guns blazing. The activists attacked first.oug wrote:
and when activists from Turkey, Greece and other neutral countries try to bring in supplies for the 2 million people who are made to suffer, they get boarded while still in international waters by IDF commandos, they get shot at because they were supposedly armed with cuttlery and then they are illegally held in Israel.
Israel could certainly have figured out a way to stop the ships without resorting to the tactics they did. Perhaps dispersing the crowds on deck with CS first, or some other non-lethal means to keep them away from the boarding party if they were bound and determined to board. Certainly heavy-handed.oug wrote:
I mean what the fuck must happen for you to agree that Israel is wrong here?
Israel has not signed the NPT. Iran has. What's the double standard?oug wrote:
Yes actually you're in luck. Recently Vanunu was imprisoned yet again for 3 months and it made the news. What didn't make the news AGAIN was the double standards with which the international community is handling the issue of nuclear weapons of Iran and Israel.M.O.A.B wrote:
By the way, got any evidence of Israel manipulating all of western media? Considering some of their own news outlets voice condemnation at times without issue.
The explanation I've seen for cement is that it is used to build rocket bodies and bunkers that are used by Hamas for military purposes.Dilbert_X wrote:
I'd like the Israelis to explain why they are blockading cement and 75% of the food the Gazans need.
Would like to see the source that shows the Israelis are keeping out 75% of the food the Gazans need.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
I've yet to see a boat that propels itself forward by sucking water in. The commandos were at the rear of the boat.Vilham wrote:
Yes... brilliant idea. Jump over the side of a large boat with its engines on. Welcome to a good chance of being sucked into the propellers.CameronPoe wrote:
Anyone consider the fact that when things went pear shaped the commandos could have simply jumped off the boat? No, handguns it was...
Ok Cameron, you go swimming near the back of a cruise ship. See you when you get back.
Remind me to shoot someone the next time I end up being accosted outside a nightclub... Apologist much? They chose to kill when there were other options. Period.M.O.A.B wrote:
A sidearm is for defence and that's what they used it for.CameronPoe wrote:
Anyone consider the fact that when things went pear shaped the commandos could have simply jumped off the boat? No, handguns it was...
Cruise ship? This wasn't the QE2. And boats don't suck water from behind unless of course they're magical boats. PerhAps that's why the commando that did go overboard WASN'T killed...Vilham wrote:
Ok Cameron, you go swimming near the back of a cruise ship. See you when you get back.
Its a different situation and you know it. You've got people with knives and steel bars going full out on you. They weren't holding back that much is clear. You have a paintball gun and a pistol. A paintball hurts for a few seconds, then goes away. Its a mild deterrent. If somebody started driving a knife into me and my only chance of survival was to shoot them, I would, and so would you.CameronPoe wrote:
Remind me to shoot someone the next time I end up being accosted outside a nightclub... Apologist much? They chose to kill when there were other options. Period.M.O.A.B wrote:
A sidearm is for defence and that's what they used it for.CameronPoe wrote:
Anyone consider the fact that when things went pear shaped the commandos could have simply jumped off the boat? No, handguns it was...
There are so many reasons not to jump off a large ship, the fact that this is at night and 100km out at sea aggravates those reasons. Indeed boats don't suck water from behind, they draw it in from in front of the prop. This produces a force that draws water down the side and under the hull, if you jump over the side of a large ship you have a good chance of getting drawn into that. The force of that also creates a vortex behind the prop that is under the surface of the water, dragging you under the water. The soldier that did get thrown overboard is either one of those currently injured or very lucky.CameronPoe wrote:
Cruise ship? This wasn't the QE2. And boats don't suck water from behind unless of course they're magical boats. PerhAps that's why the commando that did go overboard WASN'T killed...Vilham wrote:
Ok Cameron, you go swimming near the back of a cruise ship. See you when you get back.
To put it simply jumping off the boat in their situation was not the ideal solution.
It was not their only chance of survival. And better planning could have made for an entirely different situation. Not that I think they were right to engage in piracy in the first place.M.O.A.B wrote:
Its a different situation and you know it. You've got people with knives and steel bars going full out on you. They weren't holding back that much is clear. You have a paintball gun and a pistol. A paintball hurts for a few seconds, then goes away. Its a mild deterrent. If somebody started driving a knife into me and my only chance of survival was to shoot them, I would, and so would you.CameronPoe wrote:
Remind me to shoot someone the next time I end up being accosted outside a nightclub... Apologist much? They chose to kill when there were other options. Period.M.O.A.B wrote:
A sidearm is for defence and that's what they used it for.
What else could they have done then? You've got what, fifteen people mobbing you with weapons, striking and stabbing you wherever they can. Bailing over the side for a thirty-to-fifty foot fall into cold water, on top of the injuries you already have, is not something I would try.CameronPoe wrote:
It was not their only chance of survival. And better planning could have made for an entirely different situation. Not that I think they were right to engage in piracy in the first place.M.O.A.B wrote:
Its a different situation and you know it. You've got people with knives and steel bars going full out on you. They weren't holding back that much is clear. You have a paintball gun and a pistol. A paintball hurts for a few seconds, then goes away. Its a mild deterrent. If somebody started driving a knife into me and my only chance of survival was to shoot them, I would, and so would you.CameronPoe wrote:
Remind me to shoot someone the next time I end up being accosted outside a nightclub... Apologist much? They chose to kill when there were other options. Period.
Regardless of what the Israeli response to this was, whether you think it right or wrong, the flotilla is just as much for blame for taking what is a blantantly provactive approach. This wasn't soley a humanitarian mission, it was a political one. They went in there with everything short of firearms like the anarchists you see at protest rallies, the ones who turn up to face off with the police, and responded exactly like they say the Israelis do, with unprovoked violence. Hypocritical much?
Besides that, the Israelis trucked up the supplies and Hamas turned them away as a protest. What's the point of that? It makes Hamas look all defiant, but at the same time they're rejecting the very thing they complain about not having enough of.
Here's a little food for thought as well.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w … 142977.ece
Sounds less and less like a peacefully delivery the more you hear about it.
Times wrote:
The activists tied the rope used by the soldiers to a railing on the ship, in the hope of bringing down the helicopter, officials said — forcing the commander to cut the rope and leave four commandos on the deck below.
We're expected to believe that an aid flotilla posed such a serious threat to a fully armed commando IDF unit with helicopter support that is was necessary to shoot a dozen or so activists who somehow managed to have stun grenades at the ready and wrestle guns away from highly trained specialists?
That the activists were able to almost bring down a chopper?
Get real.
That the activists were able to almost bring down a chopper?
Get real.
There's what, three commandos on deck when they first get mobbed? Being highly trained doesn't mean you can shrug off a crowd, or that you can prevent your gun being snatched away while someone's driving a pipe into your head. I wouldn't be surprised at how easy it would be to get a hold of stun grenades either.AussieReaper wrote:
We're expected to believe that an aid flotilla posed such a serious threat to a fully armed commando IDF unit with helicopter support that is was necessary to shoot a dozen or so activists who somehow managed to have stun grenades at the ready and wrestle guns away from highly trained specialists?
That the activists were able to almost bring down a chopper?
Get real.
As for the helicopter, they intended to bring it down if they could, it didn't say they almost did.