Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England
One of the constant criticisms of Barack Obama's first year is that he's making us "more like Europe." But that's hard to define and lacks broad political appeal. Until now.

Any U.S. politician purporting to run the presidency of the United States should be asked why the economic policies he or she is proposing won't take us where Europe arrived this week.

In an astounding moment, to avoid the failure of little, indulgent, profligate Greece, the European Union this week pledged nearly $1 trillion to inject green blood into Europe's economic vampires.

For Americans, this has been a two-week cram course in what not to be if you hope to have a vibrant future. What was once an unfocused criticism of Mr. Obama and the Democrats, that they are nudging America toward a European-style social-market economy, came to awful life in the panicked, stricken faces of Europe's leadership: Merkel, Sarkozy, Brown, Papandreou. They look like that because Europe has just seen the bond-market devil.

The bond market is a good bargain—if you live more or less within your means. The Europeans, however, pushed a good bargain into a Faustian bargain, which the world calls a sovereign debt crisis.

In the German legend, Faust was a scholar who sold his soul to the devil many years hence in return for a life now of intellectual brilliance and physical comfort. In our version of the legend, Europe's governments told the devil that, more than anything, they wanted a life of social protection and income fairness no matter the cost. Life was good. A fortnight ago, the bond devil arrived and asked for his money.

In the U.S., the Obama White House and the Democrats have decided to wage politics into November by positioning the Republicans as the party of obstruction, which won't vote for things the nation "needs," such as ObamaCare. Some Republicans voting against these proposals seem to understand, as do their most ardent supporters, that they are opposing such ideas and policies because the Democrats have pushed far beyond the traditional centrist comfort zone of most Americans. A Democratic Party whose current budget takes U.S. spending from a recent average of about 21% of GDP up to 25% is outside that comfort zone. It's headed toward the euro zone.

After Europe's abject humiliation, the chance is at hand for the Republicans to do some useful self-definition. They should make clear to the American people that the GOP is "The We're Not Europe Party." Their Democratic opposition could not attempt such a claim because they do not wish to.

The state of Europe can be summed up in one word: stagnation. Jean-Claude Trichet, the European Central Bank president who just agreed to monetize the debt that Europeans can't or won't pay, noted in a 2006 speech that "over the period from 1996 to 2005, euro area output grew on average 1.3 percentage points less than in the U.S., and the gap appears to be persistent."

Angus Maddison, the eminent European historian of world economic development who died days before Europe's debt crisis, wrote in 2001: "The most disturbing aspect of West European performance since 1973 has been the staggering rise in unemployment. In 1994-8 the average level was nearly 11% of the labor force. This is higher than the depressed years of the 1930s."

Stagnation isn't death. Economies don't die. Greece proves that. They slow down. Europe's low growth rates allow its populations to pretend that real, productive work is being done somewhere by someone. But new jobs are created slowly, if at all. Younger workers lose heart.

Economic stagnation is a kind of purgatory. Once there, it's not clear how you get out. The economist Douglass North, in his 1993 Nobel Prize acceptance speech, said that one of the vexing problems of his discipline is, "Why do economies once on a path of growth or stagnation tend to persist?" Japan also seems unable to free itself from stagnation.

The antidote to stagnation is economic growth. Not just growth, but strong growth. A 4% growth rate, which Europe will never see again, pays social dividends innumerably greater than 2.5% growth. Which path are we on?

Barack Obama would never say it is his intention to make the U.S. go stagnant by suppressing wealth creation in return for a Faustian deal on social equity. But his health system required an astonishing array of new taxes on growth industries. He is raising taxes on incomes, dividends, capital gains and interest. His energy reform requires massive taxes. His government revels in "keeping a boot on the neck" of a struggling private firm. Wall Street's business is being criminalized.

Economic stagnation arrives like a slow poison. Look at the floundering United Kingdom, whose failed prime minister, Gordon Brown, said on leaving, "I tried to make the country fairer." Maybe there's a more important goal.

A We're-Not-Europe Party would promise the American people to avoid and oppose any policy that makes us more like them and less like us.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 … inion_main

Pretty much sums up everything I've ever said within economic discussions here. Nice editorial.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-05-12 21:47:03)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6768|PNW

All well and fine, but the Republican party doesn't really seem to be interested in campaigning as hard as it can. They just sit back and go "oh, the Democrats have fucked up now, we got this one in the bag" and then act shocked when their asses are handed to them in the next election.
mikkel
Member
+383|6597
It seems like the author is unable to decide whether it is Greece or Europe in general which is facing an economic crisis. The author also seems to forget about the vastly more significant display of economic immaturity that took place in the U.S. I don't suppose that whoever wrote this would find it reasonable to apply the situation of the near-bankrupt California as an image befitting the U.S. economy as a whole.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6577|the dank(super) side of Oregon
Wall Street's business is being criminalized.
oh no.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6102|eXtreme to the maX
1.3% behind the US isn't stagnation, its just slower, the level of consumption and immigration is lower in europe too.
Relentless increase in consumption reaches a limit, Europe just got there first.

I don't see how propping up the merchant banks instead of letting them fail is communism either.

The euro will probably collapse, Germany isn't going to bail out the rest of europe forever,the editorial is just neo-con claptrap.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England

mikkel wrote:

It seems like the author is unable to decide whether it is Greece or Europe in general which is facing an economic crisis. The author also seems to forget about the vastly more significant display of economic immaturity that took place in the U.S. I don't suppose that whoever wrote this would find it reasonable to apply the situation of the near-bankrupt California as an image befitting the U.S. economy as a whole.
Two things. One, it instantly makes the debt issue not an issue belonging solely to Greece, but instead forces the rest of you to foot the bill for their profligate spending. If you had one bad neighbor in your neighborhood who spent far too much money, lived well outside of his means and ended up deep in debt if someone came by your home and told you that you now had to help him out with his debt would you be ok with that or would you tell them to fuck off? I would do the latter personally.

Secondly, it is an expansion of the power of the ECB and the EU central government. This is just another step on the path to complete federalization. Some might be in favor of this because it effectively kills nationalism and future wars. The tradeoff is that you have an ever smaller voice in how your government is run. The further up the chain you get, the larger the disconnect between the politicians that are supposed to represent you and the population he or she serves. You will get lost in the din and be powerless (unless, of course, you are wealthy). Government expansion is never something anyone should want.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

1.3% behind the US isn't stagnation, its just slower, the level of consumption and immigration is lower in europe too.
Relentless increase in consumption reaches a limit, Europe just got there first.

I don't see how propping up the merchant banks instead of letting them fail is communism either.

The euro will probably collapse, Germany isn't going to bail out the rest of europe forever,the editorial is just neo-con claptrap.
I'm not lowing and I'm not going to argue semantics with you for endless pages, but using the word neo-con as a catchall phrase for anything you don't like makes you look childish. The entire article is written from a libertarian perspective and has fuck all to do with the neo-cons. Smaller government, free markets, you have a problem with both of these things, yes?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6645

Europe is doing fine, it's just Greece that's having problems.
jord
Member
+2,382|6674|The North, beyond the wall.
Why do Americans insist on trying to alienate everyone, even their few allies?


I'm just gonna go ahead and take up ramm/russ posting cause they're left I think.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England

ghettoperson wrote:

Europe is doing fine, it's just Greece that's having problems.
Yes, but the ECB made it a problem for the rest of you by making you subsidize their debt.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England

jord wrote:

Why do Americans insist on trying to alienate everyone, even their few allies?


I'm just gonna go ahead and take up ramm/russ posting cause they're left I think.
I'm not bashing Europe as a whole, I'm bashing those who blithely think that a federalized EU government will solve any of Europes problems. The people who want it are naive sheep who think it will somehow lead to no wars and a socialist utopia on Earth.

jord, all I'm doing is imploring countries like the UK to keep their Pound, and keep their sovereignty. Fuck the EU.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
jord
Member
+2,382|6674|The North, beyond the wall.

JohnG@lt wrote:

jord wrote:

Why do Americans insist on trying to alienate everyone, even their few allies?


I'm just gonna go ahead and take up ramm/russ posting cause they're left I think.
I'm not bashing Europe as a whole, I'm bashing those who blithely think that a federalized EU government will solve any of Europes problems. The people who want it are naive sheep who think it will somehow lead to no wars and a socialist utopia on Earth.

jord, all I'm doing is imploring countries like the UK to keep their Pound, and keep their sovereignty. Fuck the EU.
Well I pretty much agree and playing devils advocate with ruis type opinions is shit. I think we still pay £40 mil a day to be part of the EU...

GO UKIP, oh too late.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6102|eXtreme to the maX
Federalised european govt is totaly wrong, its never gone well and it will end badly, pretty soon I think.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
mr.hrundi
Wurstwassereis
+68|6433|Germany
Some of this has to do with different ways of how "a good life" for society should be reached. Americans think that everybody should do this by his own means, by creating a very open economic structure in which everybody can reach his goals. Hence the bigger growth in economy. Europeans think that not everybody has the ability to reach this "good life" by own strength, so actions have to be taken to help these people. These actions cost money that can't be invested then into economy, therefore the growth is lower.

Thinking that the Euro will fail is probably wrong. Now it may seem that it lost in value (about 0.10$), but seen on a scale since its introduction, it's still going strong (started at 0.96 $, is now at 1.24$)
RDMC
Enemy Wheelbarrow Spotted..!!
+736|6561|Area 51

ghettoperson wrote:

Europe is doing fine, it's just Greece that's having problems.
And Ireland, Spain and Italy if I am not mistaken.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England

mr.hrundi wrote:

Some of this has to do with different ways of how "a good life" for society should be reached. Americans think that everybody should do this by his own means, by creating a very open economic structure in which everybody can reach his goals. Hence the bigger growth in economy. Europeans think that not everybody has the ability to reach this "good life" by own strength, so actions have to be taken to help these people. These actions cost money that can't be invested then into economy, therefore the growth is lower.

Thinking that the Euro will fail is probably wrong. Now it may seem that it lost in value (about 0.10$), but seen on a scale since its introduction, it's still going strong (started at 0.96 $, is now at 1.24$)
Yes, but it peaked at $1.59 and was $1.50 as little as six months ago. Your currency has lost 22% of it's value in the space of six months. That is hardly insignificant.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-05-13 08:38:26)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England

RDMC wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Europe is doing fine, it's just Greece that's having problems.
And Ireland, Spain and Italy if I am not mistaken.
And Portugal. France has ridiculous unemployment rates and a very pissed off class of young urbanites as well.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
JahManRed
wank
+646|6624|IRELAND

JohnG@lt wrote:

RDMC wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Europe is doing fine, it's just Greece that's having problems.
And Ireland, Spain and Italy if I am not mistaken.
And Portugal. France has ridiculous unemployment rates and a very pissed off class of young urbanites as well.
Kind of like the US, or any developed country in these times. We are all prity fucked.

The US will end up like Europe and Europe is already like US when it comes to media, consumables etc. Nearly the same anyway.
People need to pull their heads out of their ass and see that this is all heading to a one world government.

The people in power are joining countries together in unions. Then when they are in place it will be much easier to merge them into one. Especially if their policies, health care etc is broadly similar.

EU+The Americano+the soon to be Asian union+league of African nations=one world government.

With only South America the only area not planned for unification. Madness when you think that a nutter like Chavez could save us all from oppression some day.

Last edited by JahManRed (2010-05-13 10:17:52)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6102|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

mr.hrundi wrote:

Some of this has to do with different ways of how "a good life" for society should be reached. Americans think that everybody should do this by his own means, by creating a very open economic structure in which everybody can reach his goals. Hence the bigger growth in economy. Europeans think that not everybody has the ability to reach this "good life" by own strength, so actions have to be taken to help these people. These actions cost money that can't be invested then into economy, therefore the growth is lower.

Thinking that the Euro will fail is probably wrong. Now it may seem that it lost in value (about 0.10$), but seen on a scale since its introduction, it's still going strong (started at 0.96 $, is now at 1.24$)
Yes, but it peaked at $1.59 and was $1.50 as little as six months ago. Your currency has lost 22% of it's value in the space of six months. That is hardly insignificant.
And your currency dropped from A$1.33 to A$1.07 = 24% drop over the last year.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-05-13 19:43:16)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6401|North Carolina

mikkel wrote:

It seems like the author is unable to decide whether it is Greece or Europe in general which is facing an economic crisis. The author also seems to forget about the vastly more significant display of economic immaturity that took place in the U.S. I don't suppose that whoever wrote this would find it reasonable to apply the situation of the near-bankrupt California as an image befitting the U.S. economy as a whole.
Agreed.  But the Wall Street Journal is usually a waste of print to begin with.  They have so many plutocratic lackeys it's disgusting.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6712

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

mr.hrundi wrote:

Some of this has to do with different ways of how "a good life" for society should be reached. Americans think that everybody should do this by his own means, by creating a very open economic structure in which everybody can reach his goals. Hence the bigger growth in economy. Europeans think that not everybody has the ability to reach this "good life" by own strength, so actions have to be taken to help these people. These actions cost money that can't be invested then into economy, therefore the growth is lower.

Thinking that the Euro will fail is probably wrong. Now it may seem that it lost in value (about 0.10$), but seen on a scale since its introduction, it's still going strong (started at 0.96 $, is now at 1.24$)
Yes, but it peaked at $1.59 and was $1.50 as little as six months ago. Your currency has lost 22% of it's value in the space of six months. That is hardly insignificant.
And your currency dropped from A$1.33 to A$1.07 = 24% drop over the last year.
Lower value in currency is good for exports no?
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6102|eXtreme to the maX
Yeah of course, but JG doesn't see it that way - or maybe its just when it applies to the Euro....
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yeah of course, but JG doesn't see it that way - or maybe its just when it applies to the Euro....
I do see it that way but it's not the way the Euros see things. The ECB has made it it's goal to maintain a value well above the Dollar for the Euro.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6102|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yeah of course, but JG doesn't see it that way - or maybe its just when it applies to the Euro....
I do see it that way but it's not the way the Euros see things. The ECB has made it it's goal to maintain a value well above the Dollar for the Euro.
Seems you're wrong, again.
“The primary objective of the ECB’s monetary policy is to maintain price stability. The ECB aims at inflation rates of below, but close to, 2% over the medium term.”
http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/10/t … lued-euro/

Flexible exchange rates
The ECB targets interest rates rather than exchange rates and in general does not intervene on the foreign exchange rate markets, because of the implications of the Mundell-Fleming Model which suggest that a central bank cannot maintain interest rate and exchange rate targets simultaneously because increasing the money supply results in a depreciation of the currency. In the years following the Single European Act, the EU has liberalised its capital markets, and as the ECB has chosen monetary autonomy, the exchange rate regime of the euro is flexible, or floating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro#Exchange_rates

Do you know anything at all about finance?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5354|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yeah of course, but JG doesn't see it that way - or maybe its just when it applies to the Euro....
I do see it that way but it's not the way the Euros see things. The ECB has made it it's goal to maintain a value well above the Dollar for the Euro.
Seems you're wrong, again.
“The primary objective of the ECB’s monetary policy is to maintain price stability. The ECB aims at inflation rates of below, but close to, 2% over the medium term.”
http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/10/t … lued-euro/

Flexible exchange rates
The ECB targets interest rates rather than exchange rates and in general does not intervene on the foreign exchange rate markets, because of the implications of the Mundell-Fleming Model which suggest that a central bank cannot maintain interest rate and exchange rate targets simultaneously because increasing the money supply results in a depreciation of the currency. In the years following the Single European Act, the EU has liberalised its capital markets, and as the ECB has chosen monetary autonomy, the exchange rate regime of the euro is flexible, or floating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro#Exchange_rates

Do you know anything at all about finance?
Yes, do you know anything you haven't wikipedia'd?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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