Leave It , after 1.20 Mashtuur becomes the only map without vehicle whoring ...
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Poll
Changes?
| Make it more accurate | 20% | 20% - 58 | ||||
| Make it more powerful | 25% | 25% - 74 | ||||
| (above) both | 38% | 38% - 111 | ||||
| Leave it | 6% | 6% - 20 | ||||
| Making it more powerful will unbalance the game... | 6% | 6% - 20 | ||||
| N3rF IT!!1!! | 1% | 1% - 4 | ||||
| Total: 287 | ||||||
The two things they did to nerf the black hawk was to reduce its armour and to remove the splash damage from the guns. In addition, they made the engineers repair speed to helicopters much lower.
If you've seen what the miniguns do with direct hits to the turrets of APCs, they destroy them just as fast as they ever did. Versus infantry, direct hits with the miniguns still do just as much damage.
Personally, I think they could bring back the exposive rounds for the minigun (maybe not quite as big a blast radius as before) as long as they kept the reduced helicopter armour and in-flight repair speed. Accuraccy would then not be an issue.
In the pre-1.2 days, it was easy to hit the black hawk with two AT rockets, only to have it fly off before you could reload the third. Same sort of thing with .50 cal fire from the vodniks. Now, a couple of AT troops and/or a vodnik can take down a black hawk in seconds, with engineers repairing in-flight or not.
I'd like to see the hawks flying around with a full crew again... I miss the six kills from shooting them down!
If you've seen what the miniguns do with direct hits to the turrets of APCs, they destroy them just as fast as they ever did. Versus infantry, direct hits with the miniguns still do just as much damage.
Personally, I think they could bring back the exposive rounds for the minigun (maybe not quite as big a blast radius as before) as long as they kept the reduced helicopter armour and in-flight repair speed. Accuraccy would then not be an issue.
In the pre-1.2 days, it was easy to hit the black hawk with two AT rockets, only to have it fly off before you could reload the third. Same sort of thing with .50 cal fire from the vodniks. Now, a couple of AT troops and/or a vodnik can take down a black hawk in seconds, with engineers repairing in-flight or not.
I'd like to see the hawks flying around with a full crew again... I miss the six kills from shooting them down!
Mid-as-well bring back the accuracy and power before the nerf.
It will still be easly shot down, give it a little defense!
It will still be easly shot down, give it a little defense!
Its not that the blackhawk was too powerful and that was unbalancing the gameplay, it was that the mec chopper and china chopper guns blow fuckign ass and needed to be made more powerefull not more piss poor. The whole point of a blackhawk is to dominate the skies and be used as a transport vehicle. Now if I have some dickhead in a z10 or cobra on the side of my blackhawk my gunner can probably take off 5 percent of that choppers health before he goes hot and im eating 8 missles of doom.SaladForks wrote:
I voted for accuracy, actually. Adding power would bring it back to its old self, and totally unbalance the normal gameplay, like Mashuur for example. However, it's not that great at all as it is, so I say improve something that wont make it totally unfair but atleast add some good to it.
maybe so, but it shouldn't work like being hit with a nerf gun.Naughty_Om wrote:
guys, who cares what it does in RL, we are talking about the game. not how bad you would be obliterated if hit by it in real life.
Exactly. It's not about how it works in real life, it's about how useless it is in game. It would have been more effective if they simply mounted an M60 on the Black Hawk (or even an M249, as found laying around the maps), and it would be less frustrating than having an obviously heavily neutered gun...Naughty_Om wrote:
guys, who cares what it does in RL, we are talking about the game. not how bad you would be obliterated if hit by it in real life.
I agree with 137 Csi, the Black Hawk needs to rule again. It is just the way it should be. Now that AA is a nightmare, it would be less amazing, but still make your fear the sound of its guns. When I heard a heli, I used to look around and duck for cover or lay still. Now I just run around or shoot at it for fun.
Make it more powerful. However, do NOT give it APC-like splash damage.
While on the subject of APCs, I think a gun is a tee powerful when I notice my damage meter going down.
However, it is, I agree, a bit useless now. On the other hand, so were the other choppers.
Solution?
Juice 'em all up!
While on the subject of APCs, I think a gun is a tee powerful when I notice my damage meter going down.
However, it is, I agree, a bit useless now. On the other hand, so were the other choppers.
Solution?
Juice 'em all up!
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
give it splash damage
if I change the accuracy and the fire power, then you have to improve both at MEC / chinese transport (!) choppers...
Improving transport choppers will ruin gameplay on Mashtuur again ... now this map is among my favourites , and during 1.0-.1.12 I hated It .
On every ather map improved transport choppers will be ok , but on Mashtuur they will be like hell for attacking troops , even worse then attack chopper ..
On every ather map improved transport choppers will be ok , but on Mashtuur they will be like hell for attacking troops , even worse then attack chopper ..
there was a guy running around the US carrier on Wake, i jumped into the blackhawk, switched to the Minigun, and shot at him point blank (or at least i thought it was) untill the gun overheated, he turned around, and blew my brains out :(
It has very good Accuracy in my opinion, but it needs a little more power, right now i could run up to someone and poke them to death with a toothpick and have more success then if i was trying to kill him with the Minigun lmao... j/k, but you get my point.
my 2 cents worth.
It has very good Accuracy in my opinion, but it needs a little more power, right now i could run up to someone and poke them to death with a toothpick and have more success then if i was trying to kill him with the Minigun lmao... j/k, but you get my point.
my 2 cents worth.
Last edited by -=]V[-i-n-i-o-n=- (2006-04-29 04:42:51)
its overpowered in real life so why not in BF2?
Ever heared about balance ?engineer wrote:
its overpowered in real life so why not in BF2?
Speaking about "real-life" , why , for exapmple , SVD doesn't have 95 damage while fireing same caliber (7.62) ammo with M24 and L96A1 ? BALANCE .
screw balance! i want a sopmod m4a1 for spec ops that have a silencer, 4x acog scope, an m203 ooh i also want the f15 to be teh best plane since its NEVER been shot down and j10 to be crap since its a copy cat version of eurofighter and f16.Longbow wrote:
Ever heared about balance ?engineer wrote:
its overpowered in real life so why not in BF2?
Speaking about "real-life" , why , for exapmple , SVD doesn't have 95 damage while fireing same caliber (7.62) ammo with M24 and L96A1 ? BALANCE .
all said btw sometimes guns can have more power even though they use the same caliber... just depends how they are designed
Guys if you want real life...you do realise we would all be dying in like 2 hits with almost any gun. The snipers will make a hole in you. Jets and Tanks would practicly destroy buildings.
Last edited by MuseSeeker (2006-04-29 05:58:25)
It's not balance when you nerf something beyond a useful point. How is that "balancing" the minigun? I'ts nerfing it so let's get that straight. The reason it was nerfed was because of whiners, not for balance and obviously not because of realism or a shred of it. I wish EA/Dice never touched a damn thing from the original game that was released, and instead spent their time fixing bugs and making new maps. Balance would be fixing the other two mounted guns for the other tubs.Longbow wrote:
Ever heared about balance ?engineer wrote:
its overpowered in real life so why not in BF2?
Speaking about "real-life" , why , for exapmple , SVD doesn't have 95 damage while fireing same caliber (7.62) ammo with M24 and L96A1 ? BALANCE .
If we apply the whine = balance notion, we would be in danger of nerfing everything people like to whine about. Omg nerf the jets I can't hit them. Omg nerf the tanks and apcs they kill too many people. They need to be balanced so I can get as many kills on foot as they can!!! OMG the mobile AA is used to kill infantry, make it so they can only shoot up! OMG nerf the support guns they kill too many people when they prone!!1 OMG c4 keeps blowing... you get my point.
You have to admit, even with all the "balance = whine" issues the game was a lot of fun and nothing prevented you from being the one in the hawk, or the c4 tosser or this or that. It's just everyone whined and they nerfed it, meanwhile players who tolerated or enjoyed those activities of course didn't speak out because nobody expected the nerf bat like that.
Sadly, it only took a small community of forum users to whine about it (it wasn't this community I can gather that), and EA raped the shit out of numerous things in the game. Meanwhile there is thousands of players who play this game, and none of them spoke out until the nerf-bat came in swinging, and now we have a new game to deal with - that's fine, but everyone misses something from the old days.
no, more like 4 hits... 2 hits u can still live (if u dont die of shock that is)MuseSeeker wrote:
Guys if you want real life...you do realise we would all be dying in like 2 hits with almost any gun. The snipers will make a hole in you. Jets and Tanks would practicly destroy buildings.
if u want realism, go play americas army then u can whine about the m16a2s keep jamming and the aks are overpowered and the SF training is too hard etc etc... AA wont give a shit thats what i love about AA, the dev team doesnt give a shit to whiner, if they say SF training is too hard, they reply w/ : not every1 is cut out to be a SF soldier
gotta agree to be honest it was like an attack chopper which was bad newsNaughty_Om wrote:
guys.... the bhawk was lame before IT WAS AN ATTACK chopper before... now it serves its purpose... transport.
i say leave it.
NERF IT.
Really either make anti-air more realistic.. If 1 RPG can make a Heli unflyable then a stinger should all but bring it down. Seriously it should have 93% dmg after one hit and almost impossible to fly. So short of doing that nerf the hell out of it.
Same for planes why should a Plane take 3 stingers to kill? Not to mention it can still do 6G turns with 93% dmg on em. One hit on a plane should force the plane to do less than 1G turns. If I have to sit next to a ammo box for almost 2 mins to get a full heal why should a plane in 3 passes be totally fixed? Rearmed in 1 pass? I have to sit next to ammo box for 45-90 secs to get 5 c-4 packs but a plane reloads 6 stingers in 2 secs? Make em land to fix and rearm!!!
BF2 DICE are plane lovers. Stop making the planes uber. Is it anywonder all the losers who can't really play the game (ie score) fly?
Really either make anti-air more realistic.. If 1 RPG can make a Heli unflyable then a stinger should all but bring it down. Seriously it should have 93% dmg after one hit and almost impossible to fly. So short of doing that nerf the hell out of it.
Same for planes why should a Plane take 3 stingers to kill? Not to mention it can still do 6G turns with 93% dmg on em. One hit on a plane should force the plane to do less than 1G turns. If I have to sit next to a ammo box for almost 2 mins to get a full heal why should a plane in 3 passes be totally fixed? Rearmed in 1 pass? I have to sit next to ammo box for 45-90 secs to get 5 c-4 packs but a plane reloads 6 stingers in 2 secs? Make em land to fix and rearm!!!
BF2 DICE are plane lovers. Stop making the planes uber. Is it anywonder all the losers who can't really play the game (ie score) fly?
While I agree the current state of transport heli weapons being bullshit, don't you think it's better for all of them to be ineffective than to let one side to have a huge anti-infantry (and anti-vehicle) advantage? I agree they should have made the other guns better, but I'm glad they did something about the balance.[CANADA]_Zenmaster wrote:
It's not balance when you nerf something beyond a useful point. How is that "balancing" the minigun? I'ts nerfing it so let's get that straight. The reason it was nerfed was because of whiners, not for balance and obviously not because of realism or a shred of it. I wish EA/Dice never touched a damn thing from the original game that was released, and instead spent their time fixing bugs and making new maps. Balance would be fixing the other two mounted guns for the other tubs.
I'm curious as to what effect there would be to setting the ROF on the minigun up to something around 3000 RPM on performance. I'd like to theorize that the minigun originally had the splash damage that I complained about a while ago because DICE figured out that a ROF at 3000 or so could seriously degrade performance because of all the bullets that would need to be calcluated. Their solution would then be to give it a tame (900 RPM) rate of fire but give each bullet an area of effect to simulate the thousands of missing bullets.
They should make all the transport chopper guns on par with the miniguns pre-patch 1.2. I really like the idea of using the blackhawk as a gunship, and truely it can't compare to the attack heli even with pre - 1.2 miniguns, because it doesn't have rockets and tv missiles, and it takes at least 3 people to cover a 240 degree area whereas the Cobra takes 2 to cover about 270 degrees with much stronger weapons.
I was on wake the other day in a BH with a clanmember piloting. We were at the west side of North Base hovering stead on the other side of the buildings. There were 5 or so guys back there. After hovering for 5 minutes and not hitting A SINGLE GUY trying to unload that minigun, I was tired of it. The thing is now USELESS, almost WORSE than the guns on MEC and China transports. I probably could actually hit people with those guns, but the minigun... It's useless now unless the chopper is totally still. I was sitting on a mounted heavy machinegun and the little infantry with small arms were doing more damage to me, in fact I was almost shot out of the turret, down to 3 or 4 bars. At the very least put the splash damage back to where it was, I never got a single hit and thats just bull. So upgrade MEC and China choppers. Give them a heavier gun with a splash of its own, maybe a little like the Mi-28's gun, so it would be kind of like the current gun but with splash (although not quite as much as the Mi-28 obviously)
It's just stupid when the miniguns are more useless than a SAW pre-1.2
I was on wake the other day in a BH with a clanmember piloting. We were at the west side of North Base hovering stead on the other side of the buildings. There were 5 or so guys back there. After hovering for 5 minutes and not hitting A SINGLE GUY trying to unload that minigun, I was tired of it. The thing is now USELESS, almost WORSE than the guns on MEC and China transports. I probably could actually hit people with those guns, but the minigun... It's useless now unless the chopper is totally still. I was sitting on a mounted heavy machinegun and the little infantry with small arms were doing more damage to me, in fact I was almost shot out of the turret, down to 3 or 4 bars. At the very least put the splash damage back to where it was, I never got a single hit and thats just bull. So upgrade MEC and China choppers. Give them a heavier gun with a splash of its own, maybe a little like the Mi-28's gun, so it would be kind of like the current gun but with splash (although not quite as much as the Mi-28 obviously)
It's just stupid when the miniguns are more useless than a SAW pre-1.2
I say put it back to how it was. I was trying to shoot this enemy guy climbing a ladder - point blank! I shot at him and shot at him and NOTHING HAPPNED! I had to get out and chuck a grenade on top of the roof, (I'm getting really good at throwing the grenade a short but accurate distance too, it's just like playig Worms.)
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
It wouldn't be that much of an extra load to calculate, but it would be a problem with the network code to account for 50 bullets/sec, and it wouldn't be friendly to servers, bandwidth, or people with modest connections. I think the best solution would be to treat weapons like machine guns shooting their bullets not individually, but basically as a cone.deject wrote:
I'm curious as to what effect there would be to setting the ROF on the minigun up to something around 3000 RPM on performance. I'd like to theorize that the minigun originally had the splash damage that I complained about a while ago because DICE figured out that a ROF at 3000 or so could seriously degrade performance because of all the bullets that would need to be calcluated. Their solution would then be to give it a tame (900 RPM) rate of fire but give each bullet an area of effect to simulate the thousands of missing bullets.
Imagine a cone projected from the muzzle of the weapon, projecting on to infinity, through the player models, through terrain, buildings, trees, whatever. You wouldn't determine if an individual bullet triggered a hitbox, as it happens now, but you'd determine the probability of hitting a players' hitbox depending on the area of the cone the player' hitboxes occupies. The angle of the cone could be determined by recoil and deviation, so the longer you hold the trigger down, the larger the cone becomes, decreasing the probability of a hit, because bullets hits would be calculated via a Gaussian distribution function.
So, basically, the only thing that would have to be communicated to a server via a client would be the direction the gun faces, and how long it's been fired. The server would figure out the rest, and either score a hit, or not, and put bullet mark decals on walls, vehicles, bullet splashes on water and dust poofies on terrain, and a couple tracer rounds here and there, so the MG fire would be visible... Plus, it would be very easy to balance the effect of machine guns by simply tweaking a few server side parameters, and I think it would be less CPU intensive than what happens now!
I agree, my point was that I felt the solution was to improve the other choppers weapons. The bhawk was fun and now it just plain sucks.deject wrote:
While I agree the current state of transport heli weapons being bullshit, don't you think it's better for all of them to be ineffective than to let one side to have a huge anti-infantry (and anti-vehicle) advantage? I agree they should have made the other guns better, but I'm glad they did something about the balance.[CANADA]_Zenmaster wrote:
It's not balance when you nerf something beyond a useful point. How is that "balancing" the minigun? I'ts nerfing it so let's get that straight. The reason it was nerfed was because of whiners, not for balance and obviously not because of realism or a shred of it. I wish EA/Dice never touched a damn thing from the original game that was released, and instead spent their time fixing bugs and making new maps. Balance would be fixing the other two mounted guns for the other tubs.
I'm curious as to what effect there would be to setting the ROF on the minigun up to something around 3000 RPM on performance. I'd like to theorize that the minigun originally had the splash damage that I complained about a while ago because DICE figured out that a ROF at 3000 or so could seriously degrade performance because of all the bullets that would need to be calcluated. Their solution would then be to give it a tame (900 RPM) rate of fire but give each bullet an area of effect to simulate the thousands of missing bullets.
This current solution isn't horrible, you can still transport in the Bhawk true, but its suffered so many nerfs: from engineer repairing nerfed twice, hps nerfed once, aa lock improved, damage increased from aa, damage increased from vehicles, damage increased from small arms, further more any use other then transport and miniguns, eg nade spamming, and c4 tossing out the back has been singled out in the ROE further gimping the chopper.
While I agree, the other choppers didn't have a hay day like this and it was a powerful force, that doesn't mean its unfair. Jets are powerful, tanks are powerful, apcs are powerful, shit even jeeps are powerful if you use them right. It would take an experienced team in the Bhawk now to own like it used to simply due to all these nerfs, but nobody can find out what it would be like in terms of balance, because they nerfed the guns along with everything else. Remeber pre-1.2 people still got shot down a lot when the pilot wasn't great and the engineer bumbuddies in the back were not spawning or being retarded. In the new patch, I doubt you could rape like it used to for any length of time.
At anyrate, I am not totally pissed off about the patch, but the nerfing of the hawk really took away any chance USMC had on wake. The Bhawk could cap the airfield, and proceed to punish the Chinese into next week, and it felt like final justice after getting spawn raped on the carrier like no other. Now, the J10s are even more potent and the USMC team is even more horrible nerfed, that taking USMC on Wake is a 99% a guaranteed loss...Before these changes, whenever I played Wake as USMC all I needed was one good gunner and that would always turn the tables - you'd eat 5-6 deaths in the Bhawk getting the airfield and some other flags, but then justice would prevail. Now you might as well just sit there clicking the suicide button over and over on the carrier.
Othermaps, the BHawk isn't as noticeable barring mashtuur, which is probably why everyone wanted it nerfed - not many could use it properly on Wake. The better solution would be to give USMC a no-gun BHawk on mashtuur instead of gimping something everyone loved to use, I don't know anyone who will deny it was fun getting in those days, but on the recieving end, so many whiners who refuse to take AT and down it...so they complain and EA nerfs it.
And yea, I agree the ROF was gimped because 3000rpm = network lag and overkill cpu usage, and the splash was the simple solution to that. The simple fix to it was turn the splash off and leave a totally useless gun. Frankly, I wouldn't expect anything else from Dice and their history of shit-cake patches. The fact that you can't play old versions in ranked mode is quite frusterating...at least that would have left some choice for those who wanted a mix.
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