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2010-04-20 02:16:16
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6396|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

I am a firm believer that once a person does time, they've served their debt to society and should get a fresh start. I didn't always hold this opinion but after watching my uncle struggle through life after he did time I can fully understand why people would turn back to crime to get by, they have no other choice.
Recidivism is very high, and the consequences of a child being raped or murdered appalling, hence they need to be watched.

Sex offences, esp paedophilia, seem to be compulsive, many of them just don't understand what they are doing is unacceptable, or their 'urges' get the better of them. Trying to convince their intellectual side not to reoffend just doesn't seem to work.
For some of them so much planning goes into it, sometimes decades of work, there is no question that it wasn't preplanned and no question that there must have been some point at which they could have reconsidered their actions.

That and for 99% of the population sex crimes seem totally abhorrent and unfathomable, whereas most others even the average person could conceive a situation where they could end up doing it, including murder.

For almost all other offences I agree, unless the offender has psychological problems for example and is too dumb to understand why they are in prison.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-04-20 02:23:47)

Fuck Israel
2010-04-20 02:22:13
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5469|Sydney
If they are such a concern they should have (and do have) a 24/7 monitor bracelet, curfews and very frequent checks with their parole officer. If they make one wrong move they're sent back inside.

I can't see how it benefits society to have a register for offenders for anyone to access. It breeds a society based on fear.
2010-04-20 03:06:29
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7007
Drop a ton of porn at their house and make sure they fap 4 times a day. I doubt they'd have any urges to fuck.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-04-20 06:42:25
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


If they want to be a victim for life that's their own damn problem. Most of us get over the bad shit that happens in our life and move on. If they are somehow missing that piece of the evolutionary puzzle, fuck 'em. If a woman has been raped, she's been raped exactly one time in her life, it doesn't continue on a daily basis for the rest of her life. If she's remembering the crap that's happened to her so vividly and so often that it impacts her daily life, maybe she should stop seeing the shrinks that are fucking with her mind for a pay day.
I see, so fuck the person that is traumatized, fuck understanding, and compassion for what they have to go through. and coddle the person that committed the crime with sympathy, understanding and forgivness..

All of you preach how we are shaped by our environment, apparently unless you are a victim, then you should just shake it off and move on, you are not expected to carry what has happened to you as something that shaped your life. You excuse a criminal and condemn the victim.
Who's being coddled you thick bastard? They've served time. The slate is supposed to be wiped clean afterwards, not carried around with them for the rest of their life.
You didn't address what I said...."you thick bastard"

and you have made your position quite clear...The victim should get over being raped, and the rapist should get to maintain a normal life as soon as his time is up. If there is a bastard here, you are it.
2010-04-20 06:50:49
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6396|eXtreme to the maX

lowing wrote:

and you have made your position quite clear...The victim should get over being raped, and the rapist should get to maintain a normal life as soon as his time is up.
If a person is a real ongoing risk to the community then I'm fine with keeping them in prison, keeping them on a register and monitoring them, or tattoing their foreheads, whichever works best. If they'd prefer prison to one of the last too thats fine too.
Fuck Israel
2010-04-20 07:09:40
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6986|NJ

Ilocano wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

If they want to be a victim for life that's their own damn problem. Most of us get over the bad shit that happens in our life and move on. If they are somehow missing that piece of the evolutionary puzzle, fuck 'em. If a woman has been raped, she's been raped exactly one time in her life, it doesn't continue on a daily basis for the rest of her life. If she's remembering the crap that's happened to her so vividly and so often that it impacts her daily life, maybe she should stop seeing the shrinks that are fucking with her mind for a pay day.
So, after said rapists served his/her time, you would forgive him/her after raping your wife/sister/daughter?  No further punishment?

DesertFox- wrote:

Ilocano, as long as I'm beating the drum for being fair here, I suppose I would be referring to anyone where the sentence given is not a lifetime of punishment.
Wait, so rapists and murderers qualify?
Lots of post going to comment on this one though..

If someone raped my wife/sister/daughter I'd kill him. But then what? What should be my punishment, I took the law into my own hands, tracked him down through the registry and murdered him. What then? Who's the victim now?

Also I think that the OP was talking more about the 18/16 sex offender thing and peeing in public. Not just for Rape And pedophilia but for the "Minor" sex crimes that end you up on a watch list.

Also our prison and justice system is fucked, it's not only blind, but deaf and dumb as well. But that's what happens when you have prosecutors who care more about a win then proper justice.

Also with the watch lists, you might end up having a witch hunt against someone who didn't do anything. I was watching a show on tv about a woman who was going around posting signs that a sex offender was in the neighborhood, then while riding her high horse she took a stand and rode up to one..

Woman
"You're a convicted sex offender and I'm going to inform everyone in the neighborhood if you didn't. So did you?"
Kid probably about 19
"I did my two years and I did inform everyone in the neighborhood"
Woman
"Ok well I"m going to make sure, what did you do?"
Kid
"I was 17 having sex with my 16 year old girlfriend"
Woman
"OHHHH"

Last edited by cpt.fass1 (2010-04-20 07:16:48)

2010-04-20 08:09:50
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6421|North Tonawanda, NY

cpt.fass1 wrote:

If someone raped my wife/sister/daughter I'd kill him. But then what? What should be my punishment, I took the law into my own hands, tracked him down through the registry and murdered him. What then? Who's the victim now?
This is a little off topic, but...

You should be punished as anyone else.  You murdered someone.  It's not that you killed the guy in a fit of rage immediately after the fact...no, you tracked the guy down after he served his sentence and then killed him.  If I were on the jury, I would understand why you did it...then send you off you jail.
2010-04-20 08:18:38
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5469|Sydney
Yeah. You can justify your motives in any way you like, but at the end of the day the cold hard fact is it would be premeditated murder.
2010-04-20 08:31:39
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6986|NJ
OK? and your point is?

Seriously I'd rather rely on my own friends and family to protect me then a government that is more interested in milking money out of people. You want a legal system that works? Make it so it's not a judge and a law written on paper and pass it to the victims, you'll have tons of people thinking more about their crimes then you do now. Our legal system is broken beyond repair, we have innocents and minor felons in jail for no reason, and it's on the backs of the American people.
2010-04-20 09:55:21
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6958

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Also I think that the OP was talking more about the 18/16 sex offender thing and peeing in public. Not just for Rape And pedophilia but for the "Minor" sex crimes that end you up on a watch list.

Also our prison and justice system is fucked, it's not only blind, but deaf and dumb as well. But that's what happens when you have prosecutors who care more about a win then proper justice.

Also with the watch lists, you might end up having a witch hunt against someone who didn't do anything. I was watching a show on tv about a woman who was going around posting signs that a sex offender was in the neighborhood, then while riding her high horse she took a stand and rode up to one..

Woman
"You're a convicted sex offender and I'm going to inform everyone in the neighborhood if you didn't. So did you?"
Kid probably about 19
"I did my two years and I did inform everyone in the neighborhood"
Woman
"Ok well I"m going to make sure, what did you do?"
Kid
"I was 17 having sex with my 16 year old girlfriend"
Woman
"OHHHH"
The sex offender registry should include details of the offense.

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Also our prison and justice system is fucked, it's not only blind, but deaf and dumb as well. But that's what happens when you have prosecutors who care more about a win then proper justice.
You've got to trust the Jury process.  I've served as Jury on criminal cases.  On my last case, hands down, we didn't believe the testimony of the arresting officers.

Last edited by Ilocano (2010-04-20 10:00:05)

2010-04-20 10:59:52
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

and you have made your position quite clear...The victim should get over being raped, and the rapist should get to maintain a normal life as soon as his time is up.
If a person is a real ongoing risk to the community then I'm fine with keeping them in prison, keeping them on a register and monitoring them, or tattoing their foreheads, whichever works best. If they'd prefer prison to one of the last too thats fine too.
and where exactly can you buy the crystal ball that will determine who is an "on going risk"?

I am leaning toward anyone capable of rape in the first place will be quite capable of rape in the second place.

and the last inescapable point. A criminal should be allowed to get over the consequences of his crime only if his victim can.
2010-04-20 11:35:23
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6421|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

and where exactly can you buy the crystal ball that will determine who is an "on going risk"?

I am leaning toward anyone capable of rape in the first place will be quite capable of rape in the second place.

and the last inescapable point. A criminal should be allowed to get over the consequences of his crime only if his victim can.
So just keep everyone in jail!  Obviously, they committed a crime initially (or they wouldn't be there, right?) and they can clearly commit it again!  We need to think of the children and keep the streets safe!

If the criminal has paid their debt to society, then thats that.  They paid the debt.  I don't pity the fact that their jail term is on public record, and anyone motivated enough to find it can do so.  I do object to the registry, since it implies that the debt paid to society was not enough.  Dump the registry, and revamp the punishments if that's what is needed.  And about the victims--the criminal justice system prosecutes people for crime against *the people* (aka, society), not just one person.  I feel for the victim, it sucks...but the debt paid by the criminal has little to do with them in particular, or their ability to recover.  Besides, manslaughter charges get you out of prison in a few years--that victim can never recover.  They're dead!  Your argument doesn't hold water.
2010-04-20 11:58:03
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

and where exactly can you buy the crystal ball that will determine who is an "on going risk"?

I am leaning toward anyone capable of rape in the first place will be quite capable of rape in the second place.

and the last inescapable point. A criminal should be allowed to get over the consequences of his crime only if his victim can.
So just keep everyone in jail!  Obviously, they committed a crime initially (or they wouldn't be there, right?) and they can clearly commit it again!  We need to think of the children and keep the streets safe!

If the criminal has paid their debt to society, then thats that.  They paid the debt.  I don't pity the fact that their jail term is on public record, and anyone motivated enough to find it can do so.  I do object to the registry, since it implies that the debt paid to society was not enough.  Dump the registry, and revamp the punishments if that's what is needed.  And about the victims--the criminal justice system prosecutes people for crime against *the people* (aka, society), not just one person.  I feel for the victim, it sucks...but the debt paid by the criminal has little to do with them in particular, or their ability to recover.  Besides, manslaughter charges get you out of prison in a few years--that victim can never recover.  They're dead!  Your argument doesn't hold water.
Actually my argument does hold water..... Violent crime and violent criminals should be monitored. How many repeat offenders are out there? How many rapes and murders have been committed by criminals that have "paid their debt to society"? A revamp is required I agree, and part of that over haul should be keeping tabs on all voilent criminals, and keeping people informed on their whereabouts. If that is too much for the criminal, I highly suggest ya don't become a criminal.
2010-04-20 12:11:26
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6421|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

Actually my argument does hold water..... Violent crime and violent criminals should be monitored. How many repeat offenders are out there? How many rapes and murders have been committed by criminals that have "paid their debt to society"? A revamp is required I agree, and part of that over haul should be keeping tabs on all voilent criminals, and keeping people informed on their whereabouts. If that is too much for the criminal, I highly suggest ya don't become a criminal.
What about three strikes laws...Is that not enough for ya?  You can't keep tabs on everyone, and its not worth trying to spend the money trying...since its destined to fail.  It's a question of balance.  I don't support registries like what you propose because they completely invade people's civil rights.  Do the crime, do the time...but that time should not be boundless.  There are ways to deal with repeat offenders, so maybe those should be used before we start passing new laws that are increasingly draconian.

It's sad that people would accept this treatment of their fellow citizens after they've paid their debt to society.
2010-04-20 12:24:20
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France

SenorToenails wrote:

It's sad that people would accept this treatment of their fellow citizens after they've paid their debt to society.
Fuck that. 

Is the pedo's sentence equal to the six year old's sentence?
2010-04-20 12:35:12
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6421|North Tonawanda, NY

Pug wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

It's sad that people would accept this treatment of their fellow citizens after they've paid their debt to society.
Fuck that. 

Is the pedo's sentence equal to the six year old's sentence?
Then fix the pedo's sentence.  It's really that simple.  It sucks for the kid, but if you can't trust the guy out of prison (and people obviously don't, or there wouldn't be a registry), then don't let him out!

And seriously, killers can get out of jail while they are still breathing.  Is that equal to their victim's sentence?

Last edited by SenorToenails (2010-04-20 12:36:07)

2010-04-20 12:37:36
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

Actually my argument does hold water..... Violent crime and violent criminals should be monitored. How many repeat offenders are out there? How many rapes and murders have been committed by criminals that have "paid their debt to society"? A revamp is required I agree, and part of that over haul should be keeping tabs on all voilent criminals, and keeping people informed on their whereabouts. If that is too much for the criminal, I highly suggest ya don't become a criminal.
What about three strikes laws...Is that not enough for ya?  You can't keep tabs on everyone, and its not worth trying to spend the money trying...since its destined to fail.  It's a question of balance.  I don't support registries like what you propose because they completely invade people's civil rights.  Do the crime, do the time...but that time should not be boundless.  There are ways to deal with repeat offenders, so maybe those should be used before we start passing new laws that are increasingly draconian.

It's sad that people would accept this treatment of their fellow citizens after they've paid their debt to society.
Coupla thoughts, violent criminals are not my fellow citizens. sorry

Are you willing to have your wife daughter or mother be the second or third "strike" to ensure a quality life for violent criminals? Get back with me on that.

Don't have to keep tabs on everyone, only violent criminals.....

Fuck violent criminals civil rights. I do not support the rights of violent criminals especially over the rights of their victims.


It is sad that people would accept concern for violent criminals over concern for their victims.

Last edited by lowing (2010-04-20 12:42:33)

2010-04-20 12:39:21
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France
No, I think that the deal is...

...IF pedo gets out, pedo gets registered.

It's already a compromise.

So pedo has a shitty life.  Boo frickin hoo
2010-04-20 12:44:06
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France

SenorToenails wrote:

And seriously, killers can get out of jail while they are still breathing.  Is that equal to their victim's sentence?
Well, do you want me to answer that?


Ummm...how many people are whining about convicted murderers not getting a job and not being treated fairly?

boo frickin hoo
2010-04-20 12:52:32
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6421|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

Coupla thoughts, violent criminals are not my fellow citizens. sorry
Well, once they are out...they kind of are.  Too bad.

lowing wrote:

Are you willing to have your wife daughter or mother be the second or third "strike"? Get back with me on that.
And no, I obviously wouldn't want anyone I know to be the victim of violent crime (or any crime for that matter), but trouncing upon the rights of other people is just not right.  You want me to give up my objectivity, and it won't work.


lowing wrote:

Don't have to keep tabs on everyone, only violent criminals.....
When I said 'everyone', I thought you'd get the implication that I meant violent criminals.  They were the subject of the conversation, afterall...

lowing wrote:

Fuck violent criminals civil rights. I do not support the rights of violent criminals especially over the rights of their victims.


It is sad that people would accept concern for violent criminals over concern for their victims.
Of course, you probably think I'm being ridiculous for saying that criminals deserve rights, but they are still people.  Pay your debt, get on with life.  It's way too easy for people to say 'Fuck that guy, he's a criminal'.  Yea, he is.  But he will ALWAYS be one unless given the opportunity to straighten out.

Pug wrote:

Well, do you want me to answer that?


Ummm...how many people are whining about convicted murderers not getting a job and not being treated fairly?

boo frickin hoo
Murderers don't have a registry.  Why is that?  Maybe because you can't ram that kind of shit down people's throats unless it has a big fat 'THINK OF THE CHILDREN' note attached to it?  If it can't be justified without some BS logic, then it shouldn't be justified at all.  Singling out sex offenders as some special breed of criminal that deserve to be shit upon for the rest of their lives is wrong!  Why not just give a life sentence?  Other criminals have to deal with the fact that they broke the law...but they aren't practically paraded around like these guys are.
2010-04-20 13:02:43
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

SenorToenails wrote:

lowing wrote:

Coupla thoughts, violent criminals are not my fellow citizens. sorry
Well, once they are out...they kind of are.  Too bad.

lowing wrote:

Are you willing to have your wife daughter or mother be the second or third "strike"? Get back with me on that.
And no, I obviously wouldn't want anyone I know to be the victim of violent crime (or any crime for that matter), but trouncing upon the rights of other people is just not right.  You want me to give up my objectivity, and it won't work.


lowing wrote:

Don't have to keep tabs on everyone, only violent criminals.....
When I said 'everyone', I thought you'd get the implication that I meant violent criminals.  They were the subject of the conversation, afterall...

lowing wrote:

Fuck violent criminals civil rights. I do not support the rights of violent criminals especially over the rights of their victims.


It is sad that people would accept concern for violent criminals over concern for their victims.
Of course, you probably think I'm being ridiculous for saying that criminals deserve rights, but they are still people.  Pay your debt, get on with life.  It's way too easy for people to say 'Fuck that guy, he's a criminal'.  Yea, he is.  But he will ALWAYS be one unless given the opportunity to straighten out.

Pug wrote:

Well, do you want me to answer that?


Ummm...how many people are whining about convicted murderers not getting a job and not being treated fairly?

boo frickin hoo
Murderers don't have a registry.  Why is that?  Maybe because you can't ram that kind of shit down people's throats unless it has a big fat 'THINK OF THE CHILDREN' note attached to it?  If it can't be justified without some BS logic, then it shouldn't be justified at all.  Singling out sex offenders as some special breed of criminal that deserve to be shit upon for the rest of their lives is wrong!  Why not just give a life sentence?  Other criminals have to deal with the fact that they broke the law...but they aren't practically paraded around like these guys are.
Actually no they are not, a violent criminals life is not recognized like those of law abiding citizens..too bad

Ok no, so you are fine with "3 strikes", just as long as the second or third strike is not someone you know....Although I appreciate the honesty, it is non the less, a rediculous opinion, and does not support your argument at all.

The govt can keep tabs on all citizens right now, is it too much to put an "*" next to all violent criminals?

I am not interested in second, let alone third chances for people that have devistated someone elses life..sorry
2010-04-20 13:12:52
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6421|North Tonawanda, NY

lowing wrote:

Actually no they are not, a violent criminals life is not recognized like those of law abiding citizens..too bad
Not to be pedantic, but I said 'citizen' in the same way that you used it to refer to a group that contains violent criminals in this message.

lowing wrote:

Ok no, so you are fine with "3 strikes", just as long as the second or third strike is not someone you know....Although I appreciate the honesty, it is non the less, a rediculous opinion, and does not support your argument at all.
I didn't say that at all, and you know it.  I said I hoped no one was the first, second, or third strike.  I guess next time I will be more verbose.  The problem with a registry and living with a lifetime of punishment for the possibility of being a repeat offender is being punished for a thought crime.  That's insane.

lowing wrote:

The govt can keep tabs on all citizens right now, is it too much to put an "*" next to all violent criminals?
And I don't want any of that.  At all.  Keeping tabs on it's citizens is NOT the role of government.  In fact, it's the other way around.  How misguided are we in this country?

lowing wrote:

I am not interested in second, let alone third chances for people that have devistated someone elses life..sorry
Well, where do you draw the line for a life being devastated?  From the sounds of it, you'd probably rather have them in prison for life.  If that's the case, just say so.  It would probably be cheaper.
2010-04-20 13:17:13
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France

SenorToenails wrote:

Murderers don't have a registry.  Why is that?  Maybe because you can't ram that kind of shit down people's throats unless it has a big fat 'THINK OF THE CHILDREN' note attached to it?  If it can't be justified without some BS logic, then it shouldn't be justified at all.  Singling out sex offenders as some special breed of criminal that deserve to be shit upon for the rest of their lives is wrong!  Why not just give a life sentence?  Other criminals have to deal with the fact that they broke the law...but they aren't practically paraded around like these guys are.
ummm....there's a violent crimes and sex offenders registry in most states.

this new information might have some impact on your argument.
2010-04-20 13:17:48
Ilocano
buuuurrrrrrppppp.......
+341|6958

We seem to have some would be pedo's and/or violent criminals in this thread, or acquainted to one.

Who here has kids and does not support this sexual offender registry?
2010-04-20 13:22:05
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6421|North Tonawanda, NY

Pug wrote:

ummm....there's a violent crimes and sex offenders registry in most states.

this new information might have some impact on your argument.
Which states have a violent criminals registry?  There isn't in New York.

Ilocano wrote:

We seem to have some would be pedo's and/or violent criminals in this thread, or acquainted to one.
Who here has kids and does not support this sexual offender registry?
I don't know any violent or sexual offenders, nor am I one.  I just really don't like the idea of treating people like dirt for the rest of their lives.

 

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