BF2S Forums The General Election - UK

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

At this point who is the threat?

Instability in Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain. If we had no military, what would stop Russia from using it's military? Civil wars are also brewing in places like France with their large unemployed underclass and ghettos.

And how is America having a big military likely to prevent that?

We're reviled for it, but we're expected to be the worlds police force. If we suddenly hung up our hat there would be a power vacuum. All sorts of nasty things could happen.

Cybargs wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

And how is America having a big military likely to prevent that?

We're reviled for it, but we're expected to be the worlds police force. If we suddenly hung up our hat there would be a power vacuum. All sorts of nasty things could happen.

Funny, everyone is still bitching about the American military when Europe can't even handle shit in Kosovo.

The handwringing in Germany is pretty sad and disgusting right now too. They've got troops dying in Afghanistan but their government is denying them heavy weapons because they feel it would send the 'wrong message'. They're there to drink beer and hand out humanitarian packages to small children after all.

Mekstizzle wrote:

That's cost most of Europe probably didn't even care, it was the US that was leading the whole "intervene in the conflict, bomb the bad guys, go NATO" thing. The difference isn't ability it's desire.

So you're cool with ethnic cleansing/genocide as long as it doesn't effect you personally then?

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-04-18 07:36:05)

Mekstizzle wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

That's cost most of Europe probably didn't even care, it was the US that was leading the whole "intervene in the conflict, bomb the bad guys, go NATO" thing. The difference isn't ability it's desire.

So you're cool with ethnic cleansing/genocide as long as it doesn't effect you personally then?

See, that's the thing. The US sees itself as the world police and expects its European allies to toe that line. What the reality is, is that considering the history of Europe there's much less desire for it to be so interventionist and the world police, but Americans and such think they are, but they want the US to deal with everything, so they're ungrateful and they're cowards and such.

Thing about Kosovo and Bosnia it was a European problem... And they didn't even bothered to solve something in their own backyard. You can bet your ass if today there were mass killings by the government in lets say Panama, US would've gone right in.

Cybargs wrote:

Thing about Kosovo and Bosnia it was a European problem...

There's that mindset of something automatically becoming a problem simply because it is. People have been led to believe that suddenly everything is their problem and it's their right to solve those problems by any means

People really think that European countries were begging the US to get involved? Please... the USA sees opportunities like this and jumps in and takes control and orders everyone else to get involved, in order to cement its own status. That's the kind of country it is. It's not the reluctant superhero, far from it. This is just another example of the BS propoganda people are fed when it comes to the US/Europe.

Mekstizzle wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Thing about Kosovo and Bosnia it was a European problem...

There's that mindset of something automatically becoming a problem simply because it is. People have been led to believe that suddenly everything is their problem and it's their right to solve those problems by any means

People really think that European countries were begging the US to get involved? Please... the USA sees opportunities like this and jumps in and takes control and orders everyone else to get involved, in order to cement its own status. That's the kind of country it is. It's not the reluctant superhero, far from it. This is just another example of the BS propoganda people are fed when it comes to the US/Europe.

Took them long enough time to stop a genocide from happening in their own backyard. What happened to never again? European nations only stepped in once the US went in. Self interest for US to show its mighty military power? Nah. European nations always seem like they don't want to step into any conflict at all. Even when it's fucking genocide.

Cybargs wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Thing about Kosovo and Bosnia it was a European problem...

There's that mindset of something automatically becoming a problem simply because it is. People have been led to believe that suddenly everything is their problem and it's their right to solve those problems by any means

People really think that European countries were begging the US to get involved? Please... the USA sees opportunities like this and jumps in and takes control and orders everyone else to get involved, in order to cement its own status. That's the kind of country it is. It's not the reluctant superhero, far from it. This is just another example of the BS propoganda people are fed when it comes to the US/Europe.

Took them long enough time to stop a genocide from happening in their own backyard. What happened to never again? European nations only stepped in once the US went in. Self interest for US to show its mighty military power? Nah. European nations always seem like they don't want to step into any conflict at all. Even when it's fucking genocide.

Of course it's self interest. In a post-cold war world like that you know how much brownie points the US gets from managing to successfully intervene in a conflict in Eastern Europe like that. There's been loads of genocides before Yugoslavia, how many of them did the US get involved in. It's not as simple as "Genocide = US involvement", despite what they want you to think.

Cybargs wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Thing about Kosovo and Bosnia it was a European problem...

There's that mindset of something automatically becoming a problem simply because it is. People have been led to believe that suddenly everything is their problem and it's their right to solve those problems by any means

People really think that European countries were begging the US to get involved? Please... the USA sees opportunities like this and jumps in and takes control and orders everyone else to get involved, in order to cement its own status. That's the kind of country it is. It's not the reluctant superhero, far from it. This is just another example of the BS propoganda people are fed when it comes to the US/Europe.

Took them long enough time to stop a genocide from happening in their own backyard. What happened to never again? European nations only stepped in once the US went in. Self interest for US to show its mighty military power? Nah. European nations always seem like they don't want to step into any conflict at all. Even when it's fucking genocide.

Could be that 2000 years of near constant conflict puts a dampner on things like that v0v. also meks post just owned the kosovo discussion.

jord wrote:

The only reason any Government does anything is for self interest. No government can claim otherwise, especially the US.

Fixed.

We're no more self-serving than anyone else.  We're just more powerful than everyone else right now, so it stands out more.

Mekstizzle wrote:

Except you try and get other countries onboard to help your own interests, when it doesn't work out, out comes the propoganda, sanctions, all that.

True, but again, that's not unique to America.  Other countries in similar positions of power have done the equivalent throughout history.

I'm not saying it's right, but it does come with the territory.

Turquoise wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Except you try and get other countries onboard to help your own interests, when it doesn't work out, out comes the propoganda, sanctions, all that.

True, but again, that's not unique to America.  Other countries in similar positions of power have done the equivalent throughout history.

I'm not saying it's right, but it does come with the territory.

True.. all countries are looking out for their geopolitical interest. We've just got a bigger boot, and therefor we are less discreet.

Cybargs wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Took them long enough time to stop a genocide from happening in their own backyard. What happened to never again? European nations only stepped in once the US went in. Self interest for US to show its mighty military power? Nah. European nations always seem like they don't want to step into any conflict at all. Even when it's fucking genocide.

As far as I remember it, as soon as there was a UN resolution to enforce, there was a NATO response - not a US response, a NATO response (granted about 60% of that was from the US).

That's exactly how these things are supposed to be dealt with.

US was the one who brought it up first. UNSC takes a LONG ass time to get involved. You not only need 9 votes for a clause or a resolution to pass, but you better pray no P5 vetos the thing.

That's simply not true.

Which is why the first resolution, 713, praises the way the European community had been dealing with the situation there. It was tabled by several members of the SC, not just the US - in fact I'm not even sure the US was one of the countries who brought it to the table.

You want to provide some evidence to support your claims?

11 Bravo wrote:

sure thing bert...go ask all the muslims who were slaughtered...oh wait.

So who do you think brought SC resolutions 713, 781 and 816 to the table?