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2010-04-10 12:44:00
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

ATG wrote:

Looking back, it was the spike in gas cost that really pushed the economy over the edge. Maybe it revealed that few had more than $500.00 or so per month that they could absorb without defaulting on cc payments and such.

I remember pumping that gas @ $4.85.00 per gallon thinking, how fuck are we now, how fuck are we now, how fucked are we now, we are surely fucked now.


The fact that banks aren't doing anything meaningful in regards to loan mods for the millions of upsidedown homes, the commodity bubbling and the general unease most people feel means there will be no quick exit from this hell.


Again, taking it all in it is hard to see how this is anything but a harvest of wealth, designed to set the middle class back and down and further consolidate the power and money into the hands of the few.


I would say that at best we are in the middle stage of this financial debacle. All signs do point to further calamity and hardship, meaning this could just be the beginning.


koinkydink that it all seems to be gathering speed as we near 2012.

At the least, I expect our various world governments to use the panic and fear associated with the current climate of collapse and impending doom to expand their police powers.
Again with more doom and gloom and misinformation. You're good at both. For someone to spend an extra $500 a month on gas, they would have to use 250 gallons per month or 8 1/3 gallons per day. Since the average car gets 20 or so mpg, they would have to be driving 167 miles per day. Do you think the average person drives 167 miles per day? The answer is no, they drive an average of 33 miles per day. That comes out to an increase of $99 a month with a $2 increase in fuel prices. Is $99 a month going to bankrupt you?

An extra $2 per gallon of gas is not going to bankrupt people. What pushed the idiots into foreclosure was having 'big eyes' and thinking they were upper middle class when they really weren't.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-04-10 12:45:50)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-10 12:53:26
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina
If anything, the more gas increases in price, the more willing people are to focus on better fuel economy and alternatives to oil.
2010-04-10 13:02:38
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England
Average American drives 12,000 miles per year.
This is 32.9 miles per day.
In 2007, the average mpg of cars in America was 22.5.
Assuming this, the average American consumes 533.3 gallons of gas per year.
At the current average gasoline price of $2.82 this comes out to be $1503.90 per year.
If the price were to rise to $4.00 per gallon, the cost would be $2133.20 per year.
The increase is $630 per year, $52.50 per month, and $1.73 per day.
If the price were to rise to $6.00 per gallon, the cost would be $3199.80 per year.
The increase is $1695.90 per year, $141.32 per month, and $4.65 per day.

For gas prices to increase to your mythic $500 per month, gas would have to cost $11.22 per gallon. This would be about four times what we currently pay.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-10 13:03:44
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

If anything, the more gas increases in price, the more willing people are to focus on better fuel economy and alternatives to oil.
Pointless. Better fuel economy, sure, alternatives to oil? Why? Oil is cheap. A whole lot cheaper than any of the alternatives. Basically, talk of higher fuel prices is just a scare tactic used by the media to sell advertising. It gets you to tune in. Even if fuel prices do rise, the impact on a persons wallet can be measured in dollar menu items per day.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-04-10 13:08:46)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-10 13:09:06
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6815|Global Command
Southern Cal bra. Lifted trucks, 13-20 mpg, hummers bummers and 5 mph. I do 70-150 miles every godforesaken day.
It is the nature of living here.

So what ye will. I talk to people here. I know my market and my reality and it is not the same everywhere.
2010-04-10 13:09:56
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

ATG wrote:

Southern Cal bra. Lifted trucks, 13-20 mpg, hummers bummers and 5 mph. I do 70-150 miles every godforesaken day.
It is the nature of living here.

So what ye will. I talk to people here. I know my market and my reality and it is not the same everywhere.
So you made bad decisions is what you are saying. Gotcha.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-10 13:50:20
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|6280|Truthistan

JohnG@lt wrote:

Average American drives 12,000 miles per year.
This is 32.9 miles per day.
In 2007, the average mpg of cars in America was 22.5.
Assuming this, the average American consumes 533.3 gallons of gas per year.
At the current average gasoline price of $2.82 this comes out to be $1503.90 per year.
If the price were to rise to $4.00 per gallon, the cost would be $2133.20 per year.
The increase is $630 per year, $52.50 per month, and $1.73 per day.
If the price were to rise to $6.00 per gallon, the cost would be $3199.80 per year.
The increase is $1695.90 per year, $141.32 per month, and $4.65 per day.

For gas prices to increase to your mythic $500 per month, gas would have to cost $11.22 per gallon. This would be about four times what we currently pay.
There's a little problem with your analysis

you say "If the price were to rise to $4.00 per gallon, the cost would be $2133.20 per year." as if everyone out there has "$2133.20" to spare and here are few points where you are wrong.

1. not everyone has $2133 to spare in fact median incomes have been flat and falling since 1998. So not everyone out there has the extra money to hand over to speculators.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Household_income_65_to_05.png

2. you assume that the higher price of gas only relates to commuting. That's wrong too. Higher gas prices filter through the economy and cause higher prices for every consumer good including food and utilities because business pass their costs along and I bet businesses exceed that 33 mile per day average. So that argument is incorrect.

3. if you want to look at a correlation look at the fall in the rate of savings between 2005 and 2008... seems to correlate to the rise in oil and gasoline. and since we know that that is "Average" savings per houshold we know that there are people who don't have any savings at all so when prices rise suddenly and incomes are flat then its people who get screwed.
https://www.bea.gov/BRIEFRM/saving.gif

I wish I knew where this attitude was coming from and this BS idea that its the average persons fault. Why should policy be set which we know results in harm to the average person and harm to the overall economy. Anyway your analysis doesn't resemble anything that looks like reality for the majority of people. Electricity and refining products should all be treated as regulated utilities because all these comapnies are doing is offering a service. The idea that these services/utilties should be commoditized is the greatest folly this country has ever engaged in. IMO we need to get rid of the idiots who think that "privatization" of all things and unregulated markets in all things is the solution... all that does is distort and wreck the economy

Last edited by Diesel_dyk (2010-04-10 14:03:19)

2010-04-10 13:57:49
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

If anything, the more gas increases in price, the more willing people are to focus on better fuel economy and alternatives to oil.
Pointless. Better fuel economy, sure, alternatives to oil? Why? Oil is cheap. A whole lot cheaper than any of the alternatives. Basically, talk of higher fuel prices is just a scare tactic used by the media to sell advertising. It gets you to tune in. Even if fuel prices do rise, the impact on a persons wallet can be measured in dollar menu items per day.
You're assuming a rather high elasticity in the demand for oil.  It probably is more elastic than many other goods, but...  people are opening up to alternatives.

Besides, I thought all you free market types were focused on innovation.  If anything, the possibility of more choices for consumers should be something you support not denigrate.
2010-04-10 16:26:40
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Diesel_dyk wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Average American drives 12,000 miles per year.
This is 32.9 miles per day.
In 2007, the average mpg of cars in America was 22.5.
Assuming this, the average American consumes 533.3 gallons of gas per year.
At the current average gasoline price of $2.82 this comes out to be $1503.90 per year.
If the price were to rise to $4.00 per gallon, the cost would be $2133.20 per year.
The increase is $630 per year, $52.50 per month, and $1.73 per day.
If the price were to rise to $6.00 per gallon, the cost would be $3199.80 per year.
The increase is $1695.90 per year, $141.32 per month, and $4.65 per day.

For gas prices to increase to your mythic $500 per month, gas would have to cost $11.22 per gallon. This would be about four times what we currently pay.
There's a little problem with your analysis

you say "If the price were to rise to $4.00 per gallon, the cost would be $2133.20 per year." as if everyone out there has "$2133.20" to spare and here are few points where you are wrong.

1. not everyone has $2133 to spare in fact median incomes have been flat and falling since 1998. So not everyone out there has the extra money to hand over to speculators.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … _to_05.png

2. you assume that the higher price of gas only relates to commuting. That's wrong too. Higher gas prices filter through the economy and cause higher prices for every consumer good including food and utilities because business pass their costs along and I bet businesses exceed that 33 mile per day average. So that argument is incorrect.

3. if you want to look at a correlation look at the fall in the rate of savings between 2005 and 2008... seems to correlate to the rise in oil and gasoline. and since we know that that is "Average" savings per houshold we know that there are people who don't have any savings at all so when prices rise suddenly and incomes are flat then its people who get screwed.
http://www.bea.gov/BRIEFRM/saving.gif

I wish I knew where this attitude was coming from and this BS idea that its the average persons fault. Why should policy be set which we know results in harm to the average person and harm to the overall economy. Anyway your analysis doesn't resemble anything that looks like reality for the majority of people. Electricity and refining products should all be treated as regulated utilities because all these comapnies are doing is offering a service. The idea that these services/utilties should be commoditized is the greatest folly this country has ever engaged in. IMO we need to get rid of the idiots who think that "privatization" of all things and unregulated markets in all things is the solution... all that does is distort and wreck the economy
Learn to read.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-10 16:27:10
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7002
Higher oil prices... inflation and new taxes to pay for healthcare and other entitlement programs.
Work hard,half the country is counting on you.
Love is the answer
2010-04-10 16:30:47
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

If anything, the more gas increases in price, the more willing people are to focus on better fuel economy and alternatives to oil.
Pointless. Better fuel economy, sure, alternatives to oil? Why? Oil is cheap. A whole lot cheaper than any of the alternatives. Basically, talk of higher fuel prices is just a scare tactic used by the media to sell advertising. It gets you to tune in. Even if fuel prices do rise, the impact on a persons wallet can be measured in dollar menu items per day.
You're assuming a rather high elasticity in the demand for oil.  It probably is more elastic than many other goods, but...  people are opening up to alternatives.

Besides, I thought all you free market types were focused on innovation.  If anything, the possibility of more choices for consumers should be something you support not denigrate.
I do support them fully. They're the reason I chose to go into electrical engineering. I'm just sick of hearing about wind and solar and fusion being the solution when clearly they aren't. Burning fossil fuels happens to be the cheapest source of energy that man has ever. You get more 'bang for your buck'. I don't live in a fantasy world where subsidies and other garbage can force ethanol or wind or whatever else to be competitive in the long term. They end up being like crop subsidies that cause prices of food to be higher for everyone instead of what they were intended to do.

I have an idealistic side to me that wants to invent a new battery or harness a new energy source and revolutionize the world. It's tempered by the fact that I don't live in a dream world and understand the basic premises of economics. Unless I can bring it to market at a competitive price, there's no point.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-10 17:15:47
Chou
Member
+737|7076
Another staged event in political structure.
2010-04-10 19:15:10
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6834|San Diego, CA, USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

Average American drives 12,000 miles per year.
This is 32.9 miles per day.
In 2007, the average mpg of cars in America was 22.5.
Assuming this, the average American consumes 533.3 gallons of gas per year.
At the current average gasoline price of $2.82 this comes out to be $1503.90 per year.
If the price were to rise to $4.00 per gallon, the cost would be $2133.20 per year.
The increase is $630 per year, $52.50 per month, and $1.73 per day.
If the price were to rise to $6.00 per gallon, the cost would be $3199.80 per year.
The increase is $1695.90 per year, $141.32 per month, and $4.65 per day.

For gas prices to increase to your mythic $500 per month, gas would have to cost $11.22 per gallon. This would be about four times what we currently pay.
Your math is correct, but I think ATG was talking about the aggregate total costs.  Its not just the transportation costs that increase its everything else too (i.e. the cost to ship goods/food, the increased 'fuel fees' for services, etc...).



If the cost of gasoline goes to $4/gallon that probably means diesel is going to be $4.50-$5.00 and jet fuel $7-$8.

Diesel and Jet fuel is used by businesses more who then, with increase costs of doing business, either cut costs to absorb it or pass the cost to the consumers.

Assuming businesses are "to the bone" after this recession - already with stagnant employee wages (they actually went down last month year-over-year), and high unemployment (9.7%, near 20% underemployed), businesses will probably have to pass the costs to the consumer.

So unlike the last up-tick in price where businesses had some 'fluff room' to absorb some of the cost increases in fuel, this time it stands to reason that the costs would be more apparent to the consumers more quickly and more noticeably.
2010-04-10 23:34:23
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

JohnG@lt wrote:

It's all about controlling your choices.
lol such bullshit. You still have a fuckin choice and obviously people still drive.

not much choice in the US I beleiev when it comes to public transport? AT least i the UK they HAVE a semi-functioning public transport system.

$4 a gallon is fuck all. Stop bitching.
2010-04-11 00:00:35
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7002

ruisleipa wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

It's all about controlling your choices.
lol such bullshit. You still have a fuckin choice and obviously people still drive.

not much choice in the US I beleiev when it comes to public transport? AT least i the UK they HAVE a semi-functioning public transport system.

$4 a gallon is fuck all. Stop bitching.
Go look at the map and population density of the UK. Now look at the US. Besides a few Major cities, good luck with an efficient public transportation system. For a lot of people, time is money.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-04-11 00:02:55
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

Cybargs wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

It's all about controlling your choices.
lol such bullshit. You still have a fuckin choice and obviously people still drive.

not much choice in the US I beleiev when it comes to public transport? AT least i the UK they HAVE a semi-functioning public transport system.

$4 a gallon is fuck all. Stop bitching.
Go look at the map and population density of the UK. Now look at the US. Besides a few Major cities, good luck with an efficient public transportation system. For a lot of people, time is money.
yeah I know the arguments...was just pointing out tat when it comes to 'choice' in trasnport there's not much in the US and more in European countries for example, so Galt's stupid comment about 'controlling your choices' was just bullshit.

Although I was talking about in cities - local bus/metro networks etc, so I don't agree that the pop desnity os too low in the US, that's just a bit of a lame duck argument imo...

$4 a gallon is still fuck all though.

Last edited by ruisleipa (2010-04-11 00:04:06)

2010-04-11 00:07:42
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7002

ruisleipa wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:


lol such bullshit. You still have a fuckin choice and obviously people still drive.

not much choice in the US I beleiev when it comes to public transport? AT least i the UK they HAVE a semi-functioning public transport system.

$4 a gallon is fuck all. Stop bitching.
Go look at the map and population density of the UK. Now look at the US. Besides a few Major cities, good luck with an efficient public transportation system. For a lot of people, time is money.
yeah I know the arguments...was just pointing out tat when it comes to 'choice' in trasnport there's not much in the US and more in European countries for example, so Galt's stupid comment about 'controlling your choices' was just bullshit.

Although I was talking about in cities - local bus/metro networks etc, so I don't agree that the pop desnity os too low in the US, that's just a bit of a lame duck argument imo...

$4 a gallon is still fuck all though.
Gas tax in US is still pretty high I think. You Euro's sit right near a HUGE oil deposit yet get high gas prices. Maybe you guys should revolt or some shit. Everything in Europe is fucking expensive compared to US lulz.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-04-11 00:08:26
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

Cybargs wrote:

Gas tax in US is still pretty high I think. You Euro's sit right near a HUGE oil deposit yet get high gas prices. Maybe you guys should revolt or some shit. Everything in Europe is fucking expensive compared to US lulz.
true.

bicycles tbh...
2010-04-11 00:12:07
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7002

ruisleipa wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Gas tax in US is still pretty high I think. You Euro's sit right near a HUGE oil deposit yet get high gas prices. Maybe you guys should revolt or some shit. Everything in Europe is fucking expensive compared to US lulz.
true.

bicycles tbh...
It can work in Europe because population density is mega high compared to US. Even for Major US cities, A LOT of people live in the suburbs and drive to the cities. Public transport is sometimes full of homeless people and annoying youth.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-04-11 00:18:19
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|6280|Truthistan

JohnG@lt wrote:

Diesel_dyk wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Average American drives 12,000 miles per year.
This is 32.9 miles per day.
In 2007, the average mpg of cars in America was 22.5.
Assuming this, the average American consumes 533.3 gallons of gas per year.
At the current average gasoline price of $2.82 this comes out to be $1503.90 per year.
If the price were to rise to $4.00 per gallon, the cost would be $2133.20 per year.
The increase is $630 per year, $52.50 per month, and $1.73 per day.
If the price were to rise to $6.00 per gallon, the cost would be $3199.80 per year.
The increase is $1695.90 per year, $141.32 per month, and $4.65 per day.

For gas prices to increase to your mythic $500 per month, gas would have to cost $11.22 per gallon. This would be about four times what we currently pay.
There's a little problem with your analysis

you say "If the price were to rise to $4.00 per gallon, the cost would be $2133.20 per year." as if everyone out there has "$2133.20" to spare and here are few points where you are wrong.

1. not everyone has $2133 to spare in fact median incomes have been flat and falling since 1998. So not everyone out there has the extra money to hand over to speculators.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … _to_05.png

2. you assume that the higher price of gas only relates to commuting. That's wrong too. Higher gas prices filter through the economy and cause higher prices for every consumer good including food and utilities because business pass their costs along and I bet businesses exceed that 33 mile per day average. So that argument is incorrect.

3. if you want to look at a correlation look at the fall in the rate of savings between 2005 and 2008... seems to correlate to the rise in oil and gasoline. and since we know that that is "Average" savings per houshold we know that there are people who don't have any savings at all so when prices rise suddenly and incomes are flat then its people who get screwed.
http://www.bea.gov/BRIEFRM/saving.gif

I wish I knew where this attitude was coming from and this BS idea that its the average persons fault. Why should policy be set which we know results in harm to the average person and harm to the overall economy. Anyway your analysis doesn't resemble anything that looks like reality for the majority of people. Electricity and refining products should all be treated as regulated utilities because all these comapnies are doing is offering a service. The idea that these services/utilties should be commoditized is the greatest folly this country has ever engaged in. IMO we need to get rid of the idiots who think that "privatization" of all things and unregulated markets in all things is the solution... all that does is distort and wreck the economy
Learn to read.
Learn to read

Here's more food for thought. I going to blend your numbers with the stats in those graphs
You say the extra cost of the increase in gas prices results in $2133 more per year being absorb by consumers. We'll use your $2133, its much higher than that given the multiplier type effect that gas has on other prices but $2133 will work
So if we take the drop in saving during the time of the rise in gasoline prices to be 1.5% of income and the drop in savings is related the rise in gasoline, then that means that people stopped saving approximately $690 per year to cover the increase in the cost of fuel. By your numbers that means that $1443 per person for 300 million people was paid from other sources which would be cuts in consumer spending. That would be approximately $432,900,000,000 in consumer spending that was redirected to pay speculators... to me those figures are starting to approach the amounts under TARP. I know that those figures are robust but given that the 2133 is too low and 300 million people multiplier is too high, so the $432 billion really isn't that far off. $2133 doesn't sound that bad until you consider it in the aggregate and realize that it is paying for something that does not add value to the economy. That's was a 400 billion dollar hit to the economy and the economy can't afford another hit like that one.

anyway here's another graph for you
https://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist_chart/A103600001m.jpg
It pretty much shows gasoline consumption falling off a cliff as the prices rose in 2008.... so falling demand should mean that prices should fall but they aren't, but we are supposed to have a free market place and supply and demand should dictate a fall in prices, but they aren't??!!.... pretty tough to reconcile free market rationales when the marketized good you are talking about is controlled through a quota system, is subject to artificial supply reductions and is traded through a talk-shop casino. By definition gasoline is not being traded in a free market.

Anyway IMO I'm doing pretty good for someone you think is illiterate.

Last edited by Diesel_dyk (2010-04-11 01:39:25)

2010-04-11 00:19:36
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7002
OPEC has a huge role controlling oil prices. What I've heard Saudi oil doesn't need to be refined as much as other oil due to it's good quality.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-04-11 06:30:04
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX

Diesel_dyk wrote:

It pretty much shows gasoline consumption falling off a cliff as the prices rose in 2008.... so falling demand should mean that prices should fall but they aren't, but we are supposed to have a free market place and supply and demand should dictate a fall in prices, but they aren't??!!.... pretty tough to reconcile free market rationales when the marketized good you are talking about is controlled through a quota system, is subject to artificial supply reductions and is traded through a talk-shop casino. By definition gasoline is not being traded in a free market.
Theres futures trading, conflict in the ME and the available supply is falling - hence the price is affected.
Fuck Israel
2010-04-11 07:50:36
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

Diesel_dyk wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Diesel_dyk wrote:


There's a little problem with your analysis

you say "If the price were to rise to $4.00 per gallon, the cost would be $2133.20 per year." as if everyone out there has "$2133.20" to spare and here are few points where you are wrong.

1. not everyone has $2133 to spare in fact median incomes have been flat and falling since 1998. So not everyone out there has the extra money to hand over to speculators.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … _to_05.png

2. you assume that the higher price of gas only relates to commuting. That's wrong too. Higher gas prices filter through the economy and cause higher prices for every consumer good including food and utilities because business pass their costs along and I bet businesses exceed that 33 mile per day average. So that argument is incorrect.

3. if you want to look at a correlation look at the fall in the rate of savings between 2005 and 2008... seems to correlate to the rise in oil and gasoline. and since we know that that is "Average" savings per houshold we know that there are people who don't have any savings at all so when prices rise suddenly and incomes are flat then its people who get screwed.
http://www.bea.gov/BRIEFRM/saving.gif

I wish I knew where this attitude was coming from and this BS idea that its the average persons fault. Why should policy be set which we know results in harm to the average person and harm to the overall economy. Anyway your analysis doesn't resemble anything that looks like reality for the majority of people. Electricity and refining products should all be treated as regulated utilities because all these comapnies are doing is offering a service. The idea that these services/utilties should be commoditized is the greatest folly this country has ever engaged in. IMO we need to get rid of the idiots who think that "privatization" of all things and unregulated markets in all things is the solution... all that does is distort and wreck the economy
Learn to read.
Learn to read

Here's more food for thought. I going to blend your numbers with the stats in those graphs
You say the extra cost of the increase in gas prices results in $2133 more per year being absorb by consumers. We'll use your $2133, its much higher than that given the multiplier type effect that gas has on other prices but $2133 will work
So if we take the drop in saving during the time of the rise in gasoline prices to be 1.5% of income and the drop in savings is related the rise in gasoline, then that means that people stopped saving approximately $690 per year to cover the increase in the cost of fuel. By your numbers that means that $1443 per person for 300 million people was paid from other sources which would be cuts in consumer spending. That would be approximately $432,900,000,000 in consumer spending that was redirected to pay speculators... to me those figures are starting to approach the amounts under TARP. I know that those figures are robust but given that the 2133 is too low and 300 million people multiplier is too high, so the $432 billion really isn't that far off. $2133 doesn't sound that bad until you consider it in the aggregate and realize that it is paying for something that does not add value to the economy. That's was a 400 billion dollar hit to the economy and the economy can't afford another hit like that one.

anyway here's another graph for you
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist_ … 00001m.jpg
It pretty much shows gasoline consumption falling off a cliff as the prices rose in 2008.... so falling demand should mean that prices should fall but they aren't, but we are supposed to have a free market place and supply and demand should dictate a fall in prices, but they aren't??!!.... pretty tough to reconcile free market rationales when the marketized good you are talking about is controlled through a quota system, is subject to artificial supply reductions and is traded through a talk-shop casino. By definition gasoline is not being traded in a free market.

Anyway IMO I'm doing pretty good for someone you think is illiterate.
No, it was an increase of $630 a year, not $2133. There's a huge difference between the two and this is why I told you to learn to read.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-04-11 10:13:37
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

I do support them fully. They're the reason I chose to go into electrical engineering. I'm just sick of hearing about wind and solar and fusion being the solution when clearly they aren't. Burning fossil fuels happens to be the cheapest source of energy that man has ever. You get more 'bang for your buck'. I don't live in a fantasy world where subsidies and other garbage can force ethanol or wind or whatever else to be competitive in the long term. They end up being like crop subsidies that cause prices of food to be higher for everyone instead of what they were intended to do.

I have an idealistic side to me that wants to invent a new battery or harness a new energy source and revolutionize the world. It's tempered by the fact that I don't live in a dream world and understand the basic premises of economics. Unless I can bring it to market at a competitive price, there's no point.
Well, you do realize that the only way that gasoline became feasible for transportation use was through subsidies, right?

We literally subsidized oil exploration and the cost of installing gas stations throughout the country via tax breaks.

Even today, there are tax breaks for oil exploration, even though there is no need for them now.
2010-04-11 10:15:29
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6691|North Carolina

Cybargs wrote:

OPEC has a huge role controlling oil prices. What I've heard Saudi oil doesn't need to be refined as much as other oil due to it's good quality.
True...  nationalized oil companies like Saudi Aramco manipulate prices and supply even more than speculators and private companies like Exxon.

 

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