Ruis, you may be surprised, but most Americans live nice peaceful lives, even the 80 million or so gun owners.
No, I'm not surprised at all. It's just the US gun culture is so totally different and frankly a bit weird for me is all, especially when it comes to actually carrying pistols on the streets...just weird.
krazed wrote:
well, would you risk trying to rob someone if there's a good chance they're just going to shoot you?
yeah exactly my point - I'd imagine the deterrent effect would be higher if you could see someone had a gun, wouldn't it?
The mystery of it all is better. If everyone who carried a gun had it in plain sight, then you could easily tell who wasn't carrying a gun. Criminals are just gonna go after someone else. That's not deterring crime; maybe away from yourself, but not in the bigger picture.
It's on it's way to Governor Jan Brewer who is expected to sign it. It would become law later this year.
Arizona Citizens Defense League wrote:
SB 1108 eliminates the prohibition and penalties for law-abiding adults who carry a concealed weapon without a permit, while increasing the penalties for criminals who carry a concealed weapon.
The concealed weapons (CCW) permit is NOT eliminated. A CCW permit is still required for carrying a concealed weapon into restaurants that serve alcohol, when traveling to states that recognize Arizona’s permit, and for streamlining firearms purchases.
The absence of a training mandate to carry concealed without a permit is a non-issue. Only 2% of Arizona's population has a CCW permit and no permit is required for the remaining 98% to carry "openly." Twelve states, all of which Arizona recognizes permits from, have no training requirements for obtaining a CCW permit. Two of those, Indiana and Pennsylvania, have issued close to 1,000,000 permits combined. There is no evidence that the minuscule misuse rate among permit holders with training is different than those who are not trained.
A practical purpose of having an armed citizenry is crime deterrence. Concealed carry has external, third-party benefits, in that criminals must assume that anyone they come across may be armed. Research has shown that liberalizing concealed carry laws increases the crime deterrence effect more than any other public policy method available. The current system of training, paper-work, background checks, etc., all at great cost to the law-abiding, serves to depress the population of armed citizens and reduce the crime deterrence effect. The larger the population of law abiding citizens that can carry concealed, the greater that deterrent effect.
Im jealous that you can now walk into your local shop and buy a pistol. I certainly hope you do so once its signed.
Maybe you can clearify, do they still do a federal background check? isnt it vermont that doesnt have to do the brady check they just do a state-wide check?
Why would you want to carry a concealed weapon as opposed to one out in the open, as then people can't see you're carrying sot here's no deterent effect, right?
If I ever go back to the USA I don't think I'll be visiting Arizona now!
The deterrent is not knowing who might be carrying so it forces would be criminals to assume that everyone is carrying. Carrying out in the open just scares people and makes them uncomfortable.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough." -Frederick Bastiat
Im jealous that you can now walk into your local shop and buy a pistol. I certainly hope you do so once its signed.
Maybe you can clearify, do they still do a federal background check? isnt it vermont that doesnt have to do the brady check they just do a state-wide check?
As far as I know all gun dealers are required to do a background check, unless you have a valid license that required a background check (like a concealed weapons permit).
This bill doesn't change how firearms are purchased, only how you can carry them. With this new bill AZ will still require a background check, unless you have a CCW permit. If you have a CCW permit you still have to complete the purchase form, but the dealer doesn't have to call in for the check. It makes the purchase that much quicker, plus if you buy from out-of-state many local dealers (the one you pick it up from) charge less for transfers if you have a CCW, because they don't have to make that call.
Buying firearms has always been easy here: - Go to gun shop - Find one you like - Fill out the purchase form (ATF 4473) - Pay - Walk out happy No waiting period, total time required 5-20 minutes
Private party sales are also legal. No background checks, bill of sales, etc. required. It's wise to verify that they are an Arizona resident by looking at their license though.
Last edited by west-phoenix-az (2010-04-09 09:35:40)
Im jealous that you can now walk into your local shop and buy a pistol. I certainly hope you do so once its signed.
Maybe you can clearify, do they still do a federal background check? isnt it vermont that doesnt have to do the brady check they just do a state-wide check?
As far as I know all gun dealers are required to do a background check, unless you have a valid license that required a background check (like a concealed weapons permit).
With this new bill AZ will still require a background check, unless you have a CCW permit. If you have a CCW permit you still have to complete the purchase form, but the dealer doesn't have to call in for the check. It makes the purchase that much quicker, plus if you buy from out-of-state many local dealers (the one you pick it up from) charge less for transfers if you have a CCW, because they don't have to make that call.
Buying firearms has always been easy here: - Go to gun shop - Find one you like - Fill out the purchase form (ATF 4473) - Pay - Walk out happy No waiting period, total time required 5-20 minutes
Private party sales are also legal. No background checks, bill of sales, etc. required. It's wise to verify that they are an Arizona resident by looking at their license though.
Sounds groovy, but I like cool down periods myself. Even the NRA is in favor of them.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough." -Frederick Bastiat
Ruis, you may be surprised, but most Americans live nice peaceful lives, even the 80 million or so gun owners.
No, I'm not surprised at all. It's just the US gun culture is so totally different and frankly a bit weird for me is all, especially when it comes to actually carrying pistols on the streets...just weird.
krazed wrote:
well, would you risk trying to rob someone if there's a good chance they're just going to shoot you?
yeah exactly my point - I'd imagine the deterrent effect would be higher if you could see someone had a gun, wouldn't it?
not really, then it would just mark the people who don't have one as targets
this way nobody knows who has what
there could be nobody around with a CCW, or the 10 people in line behind you could all have one... if you were a criminal going to rob the place, would you risk it?
Sounds groovy, but I like cool down periods myself. Even the NRA is in favor of them.
I canceled my NRA membership last year, because they've been doing too many things I disagree with. I'd rather send my money to other pro-gun organizations.
I don't like the "cool down" period. What if someone suddenly falls into a situation in which they believe they need a firearm immediately to protect themselves? Example: Woman breaks up with her boyfriend. He starts making threats and she's scared of him. She can get a restraining order and call the police, but they are not going to sit outside her door 24/7. Why should she, a law-abiding citizen in fear of her life, have to wait X-days to complete the purchase? She shouldn't.
Plus here in AZ all she has to do is get online or pick up a newspaper and buy off a private party. No background check or waiting period required. So what's the point of requiring a "cool down" period if you can go buy one legally without waiting?
Private party sales shouldn't require a dealers involvement either. Free people should be able to sell and trade their firearms as they please without the added costs or hassles involved with dealers.
Sounds groovy, but I like cool down periods myself. Even the NRA is in favor of them.
I canceled my NRA membership last year, because they've been doing too many things I disagree with. I'd rather send my money to other pro-gun organizations.
I don't like the "cool down" period. What if someone suddenly falls into a situation in which they believe they need a firearm immediately to protect themselves? Example: Woman breaks up with her boyfriend. He starts making threats and she's scared of him. She can get a restraining order and call the police, but they are not going to sit outside her door 24/7. Why should she, a law-abiding citizen in fear of her life, have to wait X-days to complete the purchase? She shouldn't.
Plus here in AZ all she has to do is get online or pick up a newspaper and buy off a private party. No background check or waiting period required. So what's the point of requiring a "cool down" period if you can go buy one legally without waiting?
Private party sales shouldn't require a dealers involvement either. Free people should be able to sell and trade their firearms as they please without the added costs or hassles involved with dealers.
Fair enough. I guess it's rather rare for a guy to get in a bar fight, walk to a gun shop, purchase a weapon, and walk back. That's the kind of scenario that cooldown periods are meant to prevent.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough." -Frederick Bastiat
Fair enough. I guess it's rather rare for a guy to get in a bar fight, walk to a gun shop, purchase a weapon, and walk back. That's the kind of scenario that cooldown periods are meant to prevent.
Yeah, or someone who got fired or catches their wife cheating. I really don't think it happens much. If their mind thinks, "I need a gun", they probably already have one or know where to get one anyway.
I just wonder how one goes about concealed carrying when you're wearing just, say, a t-shirt and jeans.
They carry it in their garter belt. Guns are for fearful pussies
Here comes the thunder down under, we're natural wonders Night falls when we leave all you feel is the hunger Sunrises of people all shapes and sizes Dig on the decade and realize it's funky No matter this rude boy still got that swagger My ears have heard all these crews but we're badder Interracial, special, positive beings I am I be a cool awakening It's getting hectic the metrics the body electric Everybody in worn out blue jeans or tacky dresses This is the city we've reached we've come to Go unrecognized on the corner or make moves All the lights are red all the poets are dead A familiar nightmare appears in my head Times are a changin' myself I'm rearrangin' Dream eight-thousand-five-twelve all blazin' Born to act out, Paranoid with a gat Born to act out, Think you know where it's at Born to act out, But you're lookin' like a sissy Born to act out, Guns are for pussies I'm not from Philly but some say I'm a blunt That's just the way I am and no I'm not going to front And yes I took a trip to find out about the ways of big City seedy bars and drugs that make you feel shitty Pretty older women in skirts conversation frisky Stinking cigarettes and plenty of bourbon whiskey Sad classical music on the jukebox of doom Hollywood Blvd. Barfly frolic room Tomb of lost souls some beyond salvage Some just having fun opening steam valvage I was one becoming the other hellbent to discover Had to pull up the reigns or else smother Take it brother all the way and then you're scared Don't want to be unprepared You're getting paranoid, And then guns are shared You guys think you're hard, But you're in fear of getting harmed I fear no man and I am unarmed
Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-04-09 10:09:37)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough." -Frederick Bastiat
Fair enough. I guess it's rather rare for a guy to get in a bar fight, walk to a gun shop, purchase a weapon, and walk back. That's the kind of scenario that cooldown periods are meant to prevent.
Yeah, or someone who got fired or catches their wife cheating. I really don't think it happens much. If their mind thinks, "I need a gun", they probably already have one or know where to get one anyway.
it's one of those things that it works in some cases... but is really really bad in others
Here comes the thunder down under, we're natural wonders Night falls when we leave all you feel is the hunger Sunrises of people all shapes and sizes Dig on the decade and realize it's funky No matter this rude boy still got that swagger My ears have heard all these crews but we're badder Interracial, special, positive beings I am I be a cool awakening It's getting hectic the metrics the body electric Everybody in worn out blue jeans or tacky dresses This is the city we've reached we've come to Go unrecognized on the corner or make moves All the lights are red all the poets are dead A familiar nightmare appears in my head Times are a changin' myself I'm rearrangin' Dream eight-thousand-five-twelve all blazin' Born to act out, Paranoid with a gat Born to act out, Think you know where it's at Born to act out, But you're lookin' like a sissy Born to act out, Guns are for pussies I'm not from Philly but some say I'm a blunt That's just the way I am and no I'm not going to front And yes I took a trip to find out about the ways of big City seedy bars and drugs that make you feel shitty Pretty older women in skirts conversation frisky Stinking cigarettes and plenty of bourbon whiskey Sad classical music on the jukebox of doom Hollywood Blvd. Barfly frolic room Tomb of lost souls some beyond salvage Some just having fun opening steam valvage I was one becoming the other hellbent to discover Had to pull up the reigns or else smother Take it brother all the way and then you're scared Don't want to be unprepared You're getting paranoid, And then guns are shared You guys think you're hard, But you're in fear of getting harmed I fear no man and I am unarmed
They're for pussies until you live on a border town:
I use a blackhawk inside waist holster for my PPS .... its somewhat comfy and no-one knows
side note : I hate that they call it " cool down period " - with just drivers license to verify that you're 18 I can walk in wal-mart and pick up a shotgun or rifle
Private party sales shouldn't require a dealers involvement either. Free people should be able to sell and trade their firearms as they please without the added costs or hassles involved with dealers.
And thus legally bought firearms find their way to villains.
Im jealous that you can now walk into your local shop and buy a pistol. I certainly hope you do so once its signed.
Maybe you can clearify, do they still do a federal background check? isnt it vermont that doesnt have to do the brady check they just do a state-wide check?
As far as I know all gun dealers are required to do a background check, unless you have a valid license that required a background check (like a concealed weapons permit).
This bill doesn't change how firearms are purchased, only how you can carry them. With this new bill AZ will still require a background check, unless you have a CCW permit. If you have a CCW permit you still have to complete the purchase form, but the dealer doesn't have to call in for the check. It makes the purchase that much quicker, plus if you buy from out-of-state many local dealers (the one you pick it up from) charge less for transfers if you have a CCW, because they don't have to make that call.
Buying firearms has always been easy here: - Go to gun shop - Find one you like - Fill out the purchase form (ATF 4473) - Pay - Walk out happy No waiting period, total time required 5-20 minutes
Private party sales are also legal. No background checks, bill of sales, etc. required. It's wise to verify that they are an Arizona resident by looking at their license though.
Wait, so if I'm a non-citizen but a resident or an international student, I can get a gun in the US?
