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2006-04-26 18:35:20
KillerKane0
Member
+53|6903|Calgary, Alberta
We should include Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller as one of the great commanders.  He was an extraordinary leader - one of those natural born kinds that are treasured.  However, there are plenty of other fine Marine Corps leaders.  I'd throw in:

Smedley Butler (2 Medals of Honor!),
Arthur Vandegrift (won MoH for leading the 1st Marine Div against a powerful Japanese force on Guadalcanal), David Shoup (won MoH after piecing together the 2nd Marine Div on Tarawa, later an excellent and influential Commandant 1959-63)
Walter "Brute" Krulak (Marine Commander in Vietnam who knew guerilla warfare.)
Alfred M. Grey Jr (Commandant 1987-91 - returned the USMC to its war-fighting origins; first act was to send every Marine officer a reading list and expected them to work with it.)
James Matthis (led USMC into Afghanistan after 9/11, then TF Tarawa into Iraq; said it was 'fun to shoot people' but also gave the motto: "No better friend, no worse enemy".

I like to say that if you find yourself fighting the USMC, take a moment to understand the seriousness of your situation.  It means that things couldn't be worse for your side.  Sure, you may kill or wound a few of them - but not as many as you will lose.  But if survival isn't one of your priorities, go right ahead.  However, God (Allah) does not give special credit for being killed by the Marine Corps. 

That said, if you're fighting the 82nd Airborne Division instead of the Marines, your situation did not improve.
2006-04-26 19:23:11
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6902
Adolph Hitler

We couldnt beat germany without him...jk
2006-04-26 19:55:24
KillerKane0
Member
+53|6903|Calgary, Alberta
Hitler, are you crazy?  The man was a maniac!  Want to know how good he was?  Well the world had to wage the largest and costliest war in human history to get rid of him.  That settles it for me.  You deserved your -1 karma.

Someone mentioned Vo Nguyen Giap - a very good choice.  the man who beat the French and the Americans (even though the cost was extremely heavy). 

Keep in mind that we shouldn't equate respect for command abilities with support for their ideologies.
2006-04-26 21:28:48
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6902
Hitler helped the allies more then he did germany, i guess you didnt understand my post dumbass.  -1 right back at ya
2006-04-26 21:33:47
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6902

KillerKane0 wrote:

Wazap, fellow BF2 cannon fodder.

I'm going to throw out a new topic for debate.

Name your favorite military commanders by nation and/or war, and why.

My choices:

American Revolution = George Washington
(turned the tide at Trenton by sheer will alone, then won the whole thing at Yorktown with help from the French army and fleet.  Only won two battles but they were the ones that counted the most.)

War of 1812 = Andrew Jackson (Decided to remain within his fortifications so he could use an entire British army for target practice at New Orleans.)

Mexican-American War = Winfield Scott (cut his supply lines between Vera Cruz and Mexico City; even the Duke of Wellington said it was mad, but it worked.)

American Civil War =
-Lee, for whipping McLellan's larger force during the Seven Days, and keeping Confederate hopes alive far longer than they otherwise would have. 

-Grant, for pulling together the Union Army into a war-winning force.  Sherman helped a lot too - rarely have two commanders ever had such an excellent rapport.

World War I: Arthur Currie and John Monash, for creating the excellent Canadian and Australia/New Zealand Corps which spearheaded the drive against Germany in 1917-1918.

WWII: Patton, for whipping his 3rd Army around the German flanks in Normandy (he used blitzkrieg against the Nazis in ways they could only dream about); for having the foresight to predict a German counterattack in the Ardennes, and halting and redirecting his army from east to north to counter it; and for crossing the Rhine with barely a shot fired.  Montgomery, who was a very able commander, couldnt touch Patton.

-Slim, the master, for rebuilding his shattered Anglo-Indian army from defeat into spectacular if costly, victory at Imphal and Kohima; and especially when he led the Japanese to believe he would cross the Irriwaddy at one point, yet he crossed at another, turning their retreat into a full-blown route. 

Korea: MacArthur, for landing at Inch'on where the North Koreans (and everyone else) said it couldn't be done, and pushing them back to the Yalu. 

Vietnam: Fred Weyand, for having the foresight to keep sizeable reserves ready to defeat the Tet Offensive in and around Saigon.  General Krulak of the Marine Corps also deserves merit for outstanding leadership in the North - he could outthink his enemy.  What a pity they did not succeed but it wasn't their fault.

Gulf War II: soldier-scholar David Patraeus of the 101st Airborne Division.  He held a meeting with two other generals during a mortar barrage.  They showed little reaction as the bombs dropped around them, until they came a little too close - but then they drew their pistols and charged at the Iraqis.  On top of it all, the guy has a PhD from Princeton.  Amazing. 

Your thoughts.
and winfield scott was a terrible fucking commander during the civil war do your research and why you got the mexican-american and civil war, you canadian.
2006-04-26 21:56:41
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6902
hitler still had the final say over everything.  Nothing was allowed without his aproval
2006-04-27 00:13:30
Rosse_modest
Member
+76|7034|Antwerp, Flanders

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

hitler still had the final say over everything.  Nothing was allowed without his aproval
Indeed. Some of his generals may have been very talented, but their potential was stunted or even blatantly wasted because of Hitler's decisions were often extremely... questionable. Guess that's what you can expect from a corporal (at least I think that was his military rank before he became führer).
2006-04-27 00:15:47
KillerKane0
Member
+53|6903|Calgary, Alberta
Hitler did actually take command of all German forces, but his abilities were negligible if not counterproductive.
He would berate and humiliate his generals into succumbing to his whims, which became worse after the victories in Poland and France.  Later on, when the war turned against Germany, he blamed them for the disaster.

But to say that he helped the Allies by his incompetence is disgraceful and pathetic.  He did everything in his power to kill as many people as possible - Jews, Poles, Soviet prisoners, Allied soldiers - it made no difference.  If anything, his stubbornness delayed the inevitable and took many more lives than necessary.  Getting rid of him was one of the great justices of the world, and God bless the Allies for doing what it took to win. 

I am not Canadian - I am Albertan.  We are different from the Canadian race in that we honor our people and treat them with respect.  Winfield Scott is on that list because he led American troops in three wars.  Scott's brilliance came during the Mexico City campaign when he risked it all by cutting his supply lines.   His influence over the Civil War was limited to forming the Anaconda strategy, which Lincoln adopted as Union strategy.  Arguably he was a better commander than McLellan but that's not saying much.
2006-04-27 00:35:13
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6902
In speaking in military terms, hitler helped the allies by his lack of competance.  For some reason you thought I was defending hitler


And I disagree,  if hitler was a better commander the war would have lasted longer and more people would have died.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2006-04-27 00:36:58)

2006-04-27 13:14:33
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|7016|MA, USA
Julius Agricola.  Read Tacitus - The Agricola.  At Battle of Mons Graupius, killed 10,000 of the opposition (which outnumbered him) while losing only hundreds of his own troops.  During my tenure in the UK several Scottish friends were fond of saying the Romans didn't conquer Scotland...but it ain't so.  Agricola Conquered it, and the Emperor threw it away.  Politicians taking the sacrifices of the soldiers lightly...still happens today.

Whoever said North Vietnamese Gen. Giap:  Strongly disagree with that.  His victory was purely political, and had nothing to do with military ability.

Wm Westmoreland (quoted in wiki) wrote:

Of course, he [Giap] was a formidable adversary...Let me also say that Giap was trained in small-unit, guerilla tactics, but he persisted in waging a big-unit war with terrible losses to his own men. By his own admission, by early 1969, I think, he had lost, what, a half million soldiers? He reported this. Now such a disregard for human life may make a formidable adversary, but it does not make a military genius. An American commander losing men like that would hardly have lasted more than a few weeks.
I'm not a huge Westmoreland fan, but he definately has a point here.
2006-04-27 14:51:34
strangelove
HOBO SPIRIT
+77|6878|the side hatch

whittsend wrote:

Julius Agricola.  Read Tacitus - The Agricola.  At Battle of Mons Graupius, killed 10,000 of the opposition (which outnumbered him) while losing only hundreds of his own troops.  During my tenure in the UK several Scottish friends were fond of saying the Romans didn't conquer Scotland...but it ain't so.  Agricola Conquered it, and the Emperor threw it away.  Politicians taking the sacrifices of the soldiers lightly...still happens today.

Whoever said North Vietnamese Gen. Giap:  Strongly disagree with that.  His victory was purely political, and had nothing to do with military ability.

Wm Westmoreland (quoted in wiki) wrote:

Of course, he [Giap] was a formidable adversary...Let me also say that Giap was trained in small-unit, guerilla tactics, but he persisted in waging a big-unit war with terrible losses to his own men. By his own admission, by early 1969, I think, he had lost, what, a half million soldiers? He reported this. Now such a disregard for human life may make a formidable adversary, but it does not make a military genius. An American commander losing men like that would hardly have lasted more than a few weeks.
I'm not a huge Westmoreland fan, but he definately has a point here.
and yet he defeated a far superior force (master of the phyrric victory?)...i placed him in my "honorable mentions" not on my list proper for the reasons you listed...i do not think he deserves a place among the greatest military commanders ever however i do think his accomplishments warrent a mention in a discussion about such

Hitler's poor political choices greatly hindered the success of his military commanders...can't fight a war on two fronts, and he should have learned from Napoleon what a bad idea wintering an army in Russia is

and certainly, i think everyone here has been pretty good about judging the commanders by their military prowess and not their ideologies...although a good part of Saladin's reputation rests on the mercy he showed in victory
2006-04-27 14:54:13
Naughty_Om
Im Ron Burgundy?
+355|6891|USA
Hitler won the war for the allies. if he hadnt did a double front and not back stabbed the soviet union so soon, he would have succesfully obliterated the western front and then he could have gone and REALLY obliterated the USSR. good thing he was multitasking.
2006-04-28 04:47:25
jamiecracker
Member
+17|7005|Wollongong,Australia

scouseclarky wrote:

i respect the fact that anzacs fought well during ww1 but im british and a former soldier as are the last 14 generations of my family who have all served in the millitary. so i would have to say that you have both overlooked the fact that a hell of a lot of british soldiers died in ww1 some alongside the anzacs at golipoli many due to stupid officers which is still a problem today. there were more victoria crosses awarded to british soldiers than any other comenwealth army. the youngest being a boy cornwall a 16 year old sailer who despite being wounded and the rest of wis gun crew killd stood at his post for 5 hours refusing to seek medical aid till after the battle 30 mins after the order to cease fire was given he died. i say he deserves a mention
mate iam pretty sure that most of the people out there know that you poms lost a hell of a lot of guys in both world wars and i dont think the guys were knocking your countries losses, i think they were trying to get across that the commonwealth troops that fought in WW1 done a hell of a job and that they were well known for their braveryand larakinism(?)
2006-04-28 05:07:03
Jepeto87
Member
+38|6943|Dublin
What about Mainstein? Why has has no one mentioned him! tut tut tut

Maybe someone has I just didnt see it! lol..

Cheers.
2006-04-28 06:16:23
HisInfernalDeath
Member
+23|6982|Belgium

strangelove wrote:

i would like to add in no particular order...

the french revolution (and post revolution): Napoleon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon
for his astute employment of military basics

WW2: Rommel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel
for his expert empoyment of Armored warfare which was new at the time

from ancient China: Sun Wu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu
for composing the seminal "The Art of War"

from ancient rome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar
if, for nothing else, but for having the biggest balls in history...master of tactics and imaginative scope

from the ancient mogolian steppes: Genghis Kahn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis
for being able to organize a relativly unimportant group of peasants from an insignificant place into one of the worlds most conquering forces

from ancient macedon:Alexander the Great
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander
for being able to conquer the entire known world before he was 30 years old

from the 12th century middle east: Saladin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin
for growing up a Kurd in an Arab-dominated world and becoming the most reknowned military leader from the muslim world

honorable mention
William Tecumseh Sherman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman

Charlemagne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne

Geronimo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geronimo

Cetshwayo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetshwayo
I love the line in your sig, +1 karma dude !

 

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