BF2S Forums Is partition/balkanisation sometimes the only way?

I am sure the millions of africans who don't want to die feel the same way Cam

CameronPoe wrote:

I've long held the belief that Africa needs to have its international aid abolished and its borders redrawn by a couple of centuries of civil/tribal/ethnic war. There are way too many arbitrary borders on the map of Africa. There are also way too many suppressed nations inside Russia and China.

A long winded response incoming-----

The idea of 'cutting off all of their aid and letting them kill each other until they are peaceful' has to be one of the dumbest views on African i can imagine.

If you really cared about the people of Africa you would understand how completely insane your plan would be.

Africa has about 1 billion people living in it currently, In Rwanda they were able to kill about a million in a few weeks. So they have a huge amount of people and a great ability to wipe each other out. So lets say in about a year they can maybe kill off 100 million people, who will eventually be replaced. Than they constantly kill off hundreds of millions of people every year for the next few centuries until they maybe are all united one single government or can agree on peace.

That has to be the most coldly naive idealism you can imagine. To risk billions of lives in the hope that maybe they can fix things. It has never happened, hell you don't even have total peace within Europe and you guys being the "superior culture" and all have been going at it just as long as the Africans. If you really cared about the people of Africa you would mind the 'table scraps foreign aid' they receive that prevents them from totally unleashing hell on each other.

Furthermore, I can't see why you, an Irishman living thousands of miles away from from Africa and not even in the least affected by what goes on there, would care so much about Africa as to want to have their entire map redrawn with blood. The only reason I could find is so that you don't have to put up with the occasional 'wtf news' that comes out of Africa every so often, which would make you as much of a narcissistic sociopath as people say I am.

Personally, I can totally live with the idea of less than a dime worth of my paycheck going to feed some starving kids in Africa or to some Warlord so he doesn't go around raping and raiding the locals.

Turquoise wrote:

I support splitting various nations into smaller parts -- including this one.

Worked for the Roman Empire didn't it?

Marlo Stanfield wrote:

A long winded response incoming-----

The idea of 'cutting off all of their aid and letting them kill each other until they are peaceful' has to be one of the dumbest views on African i can imagine.

If you really cared about the people of Africa you would understand how completely insane your plan would be.

Africa has about 1 billion people living in it currently, In Rwanda they were able to kill about a million in a few weeks. So they have a huge amount of people and a great ability to wipe each other out. So lets say in about a year they can maybe kill off 100 million people, who will eventually be replaced. Than they constantly kill off hundreds of millions of people every year for the next few centuries until they maybe are all united one single government or can agree on peace.

That has to be the most coldly naive idealism you can imagine. To risk billions of lives in the hope that maybe they can fix things. It has never happened, hell you don't even have total peace within Europe and you guys being the "superior culture" and all have been going at it just as long as the Africans. If you really cared about the people of Africa you would mind the 'table scraps foreign aid' they receive that prevents them from totally unleashing hell on each other.

Furthermore, I can't see why you, an Irishman living thousands of miles away from from Africa and not even in the least affected by what goes on there, would care so much about Africa as to want to have their entire map redrawn with blood. The only reason I could find is so that you don't have to put up with the occasional 'wtf news' that comes out of Africa every so often, which would make you as much of a narcissistic sociopath as people say I am.

Personally, I can totally live with the idea of less than a dime worth of my paycheck going to feed some starving kids in Africa or to some Warlord so he doesn't go around raping and raiding the locals.

a) They won't be united under one government, nor should they be - that's the fucking problem - there should be many self determining governments representative of different cultural/ethnic groups.

b) They're killing each other as it is. Nigeria, Somalia, Western Sahara, Sudan and Democratic Republic of Congo being the prime examples. Forcing something together because of an arbitrary line on a map just means a millennium or more of carnage, when a split following a civil war would be far cleaner and less morbid. (Ireland spent 800 years killing and being killed to get out from under the yoke of an unrepresentative tyrant, there are still dissident bombings today because Northern Ireland contains two fairly evenly balanced diametrically opposed ethnic groups). You seem to think Africa is currently some haven of tranquility thanks to western benevolence. It isn't, it's a complete shithole.

c) Every other place on earth has experienced war and civil strife aimed at sorting out final borders and governments. Africa gets a pass just because our money, our intervention and our 'international law' can prolong the agony imposed on them from having their political development stunted by colonialism in past centuries? You're talking about imposing cultural and political norms on them that may not naturally fit their needs. Systems that have not grown organically. You are the one prolonging their agony. Even what seemed like stable nations (Kenya) practically violently implode upon a change in government that disgruntles a particular ethnic group. What you speak of entails thousands of years of death, strife and civil chaos. I am talking about nature taking it's course. We have no right to impose on them what their nations 'should be' or how they 'should act'. Paying for this situation to persist and intervening politically in their affairs is causing more death, destruction and stunted economic development than anything else. Your money is actively prolonging the shitfest. I have no problem with private aid for building schools and wells and all of that (I give monthly by direct debit) but governmental aid is a complete waste of time that has the reverse effect to that desired.

I asked my Zimbabwean friend (who lived in South Africa for much of his life) whether South Africans viewed themselves as South Africans or along tribal lines. He stated emphatically that it was tribe first, 'nation' after. In every sub-Saharan African nation we are just waiting for the next 'democratic election' to blow up into an 'I want a recount' ethnic punchup with Kalashnikovs.

You seem to be of the opinion that it would be our fault if we allowed this carnage to occur when we are actually partly at fault for allowing daily carnage to continue for the forseeable future because we've stifled natural African political evolution/development. I guess you believe in the west being 'kings of the world' that can impose our will irrespective of right or wrong or what is best in the long run. As long as it isn't being televised and we are paying for our past crimes in hard cash we can tuck it away into a neat little recess in our subconscious minds... Every dollar spent is copper-fastening the ten dollars we'll have to spend next year to place a sticky plaster on the latest festering boil to develop on African politics.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2010-03-30 06:10:44)

CameronPoe wrote:

Marlo Stanfield wrote:

A long winded response incoming-----

The idea of 'cutting off all of their aid and letting them kill each other until they are peaceful' has to be one of the dumbest views on African i can imagine.

If you really cared about the people of Africa you would understand how completely insane your plan would be.

Africa has about 1 billion people living in it currently, In Rwanda they were able to kill about a million in a few weeks. So they have a huge amount of people and a great ability to wipe each other out. So lets say in about a year they can maybe kill off 100 million people, who will eventually be replaced. Than they constantly kill off hundreds of millions of people every year for the next few centuries until they maybe are all united one single government or can agree on peace.

That has to be the most coldly naive idealism you can imagine. To risk billions of lives in the hope that maybe they can fix things. It has never happened, hell you don't even have total peace within Europe and you guys being the "superior culture" and all have been going at it just as long as the Africans. If you really cared about the people of Africa you would mind the 'table scraps foreign aid' they receive that prevents them from totally unleashing hell on each other.

Furthermore, I can't see why you, an Irishman living thousands of miles away from from Africa and not even in the least affected by what goes on there, would care so much about Africa as to want to have their entire map redrawn with blood. The only reason I could find is so that you don't have to put up with the occasional 'wtf news' that comes out of Africa every so often, which would make you as much of a narcissistic sociopath as people say I am.

Personally, I can totally live with the idea of less than a dime worth of my paycheck going to feed some starving kids in Africa or to some Warlord so he doesn't go around raping and raiding the locals.

a) They won't be united under one government, nor should they be - that's the fucking problem - there should be many self determining governments representative of different cultural/ethnic groups.

b) They're killing each other as it is. Nigeria, Somalia, Western Sahara, Sudan and Democratic Republic of Congo being the prime examples. Forcing something together because of an arbitrary line on a map just means a millennium or more of carnage, when a split following a civil war would be far cleaner and less morbid. (Ireland spent 800 years killing and being killed to get out from under the yoke of an unrepresentative tyrant, there are still dissident bombings today because Northern Ireland contains two fairly evenly balanced diametrically opposed ethnic groups). You seem to think Africa is currently some haven of tranquility thanks to western benevolence. It isn't, it's a complete shithole.You seem to think Europe and Africa are on the same level culturally and technologically. Considering movement throughout Africa isn't as simple as taking a road somewhere, there is a large change that this 'simple civil war' you want in Africa could very well turn into an endless civil war with neither side ever being able to end it, case in point; Somalia. Even than if they somehow managed to draw up new states there isn't any reason they wouldn't fight between the states. Just like Europe who thought it was a great idea to kill each other for economic or religious reasons all the way till 1945, let's just focus on Western Europe and ignore the eastern shithole, these new Africa states could very well just start going to war with each other. In all you've solved nothing by starting this large scale civil war other than helping led way more people to die than who would have died if Africa is as it is already. 
c) Every other place on earth has experienced war and civil strife aimed at sorting out final borders and governments. Africa gets a pass just because our money, our intervention and our 'international law' can prolong the agony imposed on them from having their political development stunted by colonialism in past centuries? You're talking about imposing cultural and political norms on them that may not naturally fit their needs. Systems that have not grown organically. You are the one prolonging their agony. Even what seemed like stable nations (Kenya) practically violently implode upon a change in government that disgruntles a particular ethnic group. What you speak of entails thousands of years of death, strife and civil chaos. I am talking about nature taking it's course. We have no right to impose on them what their nations 'should be' or how they 'should act'. Paying for this situation to persist and intervening politically in their affairs is causing more death, destruction and stunted economic development than anything else. Your money is actively prolonging the shitfest. I have no problem with private aid for building schools and wells and all of that (I give monthly by direct debit) but governmental aid is a complete waste of time that has the reverse effect to that desired.You seem to have a Hollywood view of Africa, the truth is all of Africa isn't a complete wasteland, the northern Arab parts of Africa are fairly well developed and the southern black and white areas are doing fairly well for themselves. 'Classically Africa' isn't all that great of a place in term of human development but there is no reason to want to destroy all of the development of Northern and Southern Africa for slim chance middle Africa might actually get their shit together. Aside from that middle African nations all imploded after Euro withdrawal, all they are getting is money, Euro and American troops aren't running the country like you seem to be implying.
I asked my Zimbabwean friend (who lived in South Africa for much of his life) whether South Africans viewed themselves as South Africans or along tribal lines. He stated emphatically that it was tribe first, 'nation' after. In every sub-Saharan African nation we are just waiting for the next 'democratic election' to blow up into an 'I want a recount' ethnic punchup with Kalashnikovs.

You seem to be of the opinion that it would be our fault if we allowed this carnage to occur when we are actually partly at fault for allowing daily carnage to continue for the forseeable future because we've stifled natural African political evolution/development. I guess you believe in the west being 'kings of the world' that can impose our will irrespective of right or wrong or what is best in the long run. As long as it isn't being televised and we are paying for our past crimes in hard cash we can tuck it away into a neat little recess in our subconscious minds... Every dollar spent is copper-fastening the ten dollars we'll have to spend next year to place a sticky plaster on the latest festering boil to develop on African politics.Last time I checked the part of the west known as the United States never cut up Africa like the ever benevolent Europeans did. So the kings of the world Americans never broke Africa, it was the king of the world Europeans. I don't mind he pennies out of my paycheck that went to help prop up a government in Africa, that's how much we spend on Africa pennies per citizen. The fact that rather than pay pennies to help make sure millions of people don't die you would rather the entire continent erupt into a complete war because you think the map is drawn wrong makes the benevolent Africa colonizing European within you seem like a total compete culture judging hypocrite. Finally like I said before, I'm sure the millions of Africans who don't want to die feel the same way about welcoming a giant civil war.