JohnG@lt wrote:
Diesel_dyk wrote:
I would disagree with Marlo... PBO was elected on his promise to reform healthcare and bring in a single payer system.
It should have been passed already, for all the GOP whining, they can go f*ck themselves afterall they lost the election in a landslide.
But the bill as it is is a huge pile of dog shit. I've posted before that the worst case scenerio would be an "insurance pork" bill where there would be no controls on costs and a mandate that everyone has to buy private insurance. That's a huge give away to insurance companies. Their lobbiest sure turned this one into a win win for them, thanks to the corruption in congress.
Its such a crappy bill with the add ons and the pork and the give aways and because there is so little substance for health care. Its like the dems poisoned their own bill so that they can walk away from it and cry its a bad bill.... At the core of this I truly believe that there are some dems who would rather permit the sick and dying suffer than reign in the profiteering of the insurance companies. must be nice to live such a posh and blissfully ignorant life (I'm sure satan has a special spot for these guys)
What is really sad though is that even though the bill is undeniably crap, its still better than the status quo... that's how shitty things are now.
Anyway, with that all said I still hope it passes if for no other reason than to make Mitch McConnell John Boehner Lindsey Graham and Orrin Hatch all eat shit and well you know the rest... I would love to see these guys filibuster in their depends while they f*ck the American public in the a$$.... which brings to mind the thought, when do you think one of these guys is going to fall out the closet because they all look like angry flamers to me.
You're missing the forest for the trees here. What this legislation does is essentially turn the entire system into a single payer system. Sure, companies like Wellpoint stay in business but that's only because of the cries of Nationalization and Socialism that the pussy progressives can't stomach or admit to. What this legislation does is essentially tell every health insurance company in the nation how to run it's business, line by line. They will no longer have real businesses, only fronts like the mob uses, except Congress is the mob in this instance.
"Insurers prohibited from denying coverage to people with medical problems or charging them more. Higher premiums for women would be banned. Starting this year, insurers would be forbidden from placing lifetime dollar limits on policies, and from denying coverage to children because of pre-existing medical problems."
Read that again. Prohibited from charging more for people who cost the company more money. That removes what the entire insurance industry is based on, which is assessing risk and charging a premium to offset that risk. That one line would remove the 'insurance' part from their company name and make them nothing more than a moderately privatized Medicare style payer.
Forbidding them from placing lifetime dollar limits on policies will necessitate higher premiums for everyone involved, as will requiring them to take on everyone, including pre-existings as will prohibiting them from charging based on risk. End result is everyone will pay the exact same price for health insurance no matter what the company name at the top and regardless of their health. This is the very definition of a single payer system. Hell, they're even tacking on a tax on the rich to pay for it as well as subsidies for the poor so the entire thing might as well have created a tax funded NHS.
If you don't think price controls would come down the pipe next you're nuts and the well known secret about price controls is that they create shortages and a black market. This is what the Dems have wrought and it's going to be horrific.
Gambling 101
Galt do you know the history of the insurance industry? Do you know the story of Lloyds of London aka Lloyds coffee house where people/ship owners would pin put up a sheet of paper on the wall stating that they would take bets on whether their ship would return, then people would sign up underneath to take a piece of the action ie the underwriters or the names... insurance is about probabilities and gambling. IMO there is nothing wrong with the govt setting the rules for the house when the game becomes crooked.
With health insurance there is no real market... its still gambling. Sick people getting kicked off of insurance is the same things as a casino kicking out people for using a computer to calculate odds, the house doesn't want to pay off when the odds of the house losing is a near certainty. Insurance was gambling, insurance is still gambling, and gambling is not a market.
From a libertarian stand point I would rather see health insurance be banned completely, and that all health services should be paid for by cash from the patients and the doctors and hosiptals having to post pricing boards like in a sandwich shop so that everyone pays the same. That would start to look like a market and one base on fair market principles.
But I'm not an idiot, I know that's never going to happen, and since I'm not buying the rhetoric that what we see here today is in anyway shape or form a market.. free or otherwise, I think a shake up is in order even if it is a bad one. The reason why bad change is good is that the shake out will present an opportunity to gain knowledge from hidden information that will shake out in the process. Just like the financial meltdown splayed open wall streets rotten carcass for all to see.
As far as a single payer system and controlling costs... well how do you expect to reduce costs on services that are both a necessity to the ordinary person and involve a closed industry and where services are rendered and then a price is fixed to the service. Now for the govt to ensure that people have adequate medical coverage and for the federal and state govts to not be bankrupted by costs that are running away, one of two things has to happen
1. the govt has to cover the uninsured in programs that set cost/prices that hospitals and doctors charge ie medicare and medicaid type programs, to deflect the costs of emergency room medicine And
2. the govt has to regulate the insurance industry and employers to get more people into private coverage and keep them there. We simply can't afford to bear the costs of uninsured care at unregulated costs. and we can't afford to use tax dollars like we already are to subsidize business who refuse to offer health insurance... you want workers you should have to pay them enough to afford health insurance, why should taxpayers subsidize your profit margin... same for insurance companies, you want to kick people off of insurance and force taxpayers to pay for these foricbly uninsured people so you can fatten you profit margin, well screw that too.
You need both those things... the cost cutting has to come out of someones bottom line and if it doesn't then its the taxpayers that are going to have to pay more and that means you an I.... and I can tell you if the choice is between me paying more taxes and an insurance company making a little less profit, well there really isn't a choice there... F*ck the insurance company. I say regualte the shit out of them.
and as far as setting regulation on insurance IMO the interstate commerce clause empowers them to do that.
With the present legislation what I see is bull headed POS kicking sand in a sand box while trying to jockey for the next election cycle. And you know that elections should have consequences even if you don't agree with the policies being enacted. But the Dems are such dam pussies that when they get into power that don't present a counter balance to the previous GOP govt and the result is that we get crap like Bush and Cheney, and financial meltdowns, and huge bailouts for dutch rudder buddies, etc etc etc.... and then there is no response to right the ship.
Its like the old joke... what's the difference between a liberal and a conservative. a conservative will say that the best education for a young man is to be cold, wet and hungry. And a liberal will think it but won't say it. I really do think that dems don't want this legislation, but the people do. but now the dems are being forced to pass it, but since they don't want to do it, they loaded it up with poison pills like backdoor deals to florida and nebraska etc and they may even put it a few unconstitutional provisions so that when the law fails they can later blame the courts....
Personally I want them to pass it, I want to see some of these GOP guys eat a shitty defeat, I want both sides to choke on something that presents a benefit for the people, I want to see this all play out, I want to see the court fight, I want to see what they do to stop it, I want the information that will come to light from that fight... and if for no other reason than just shear morbid curiosity and to have something to post here on the forum.