i have a boat that big.JaMDuDe wrote:
Why cant i just give him the numbers he asked for?XanKrieger wrote:
ROFL Owned, this guy has to steal other peoples text word for word, +1 karma for jooSkruples wrote:
JaMDuDe wrote:
Well you said two of every animal couldnt fit on the ark. The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits,Answersingenesis.org wrote:
The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits (Genesis 6:15)...JaMDuDe wrote:
...thats the size of 522 American railroad stalk cars...answersingenesis.org wrote:
...To put this in perspective, this is the equivalent volume of 522 standard American railroad stock cars...JaMDuDe wrote:
...each of them can hold 240 sheep...answersingenesis.org wrote:
...each of which can hold 240 sheep...JaMDuDe wrote:
...If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50x50x30 centimetres...answersingenesis.org wrote:
If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50x50x30 centimetres...JaMDuDe wrote:
...16,000 animals would only take up 14.4 stock cars...Answersingenesis.org wrote:
... the 16,000 animals would only occupy 1200 m3 (42,000 cubic feet) or 14.4 stock cars...JaMDuDe wrote:
That would leaves 507.6 stock cars for food/water and anything else. Thats plenty of room.You were saying?answersingenesis' math wrote:
522 stock cars - 14.4 for the animals = 507.6 stock cars
The original document is here, if anyone would like to peruse it: http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio … nimals.asp
I stopped taking you seriously a while ago JaMDuDe. For a long time I considered that you were actually coming up with ideas yourself and arguing them, like Wannabe_tank_whore (who I respect despite our difference of opinion on almost everything). It's become very clear to me now that you just run off to your insanely biased websites whenever someone confronts you with anything challenging. You're not going to learn anything this way. You're not going to broaden your mind. Why do you even bother responding, if you're just going to copy someone elses work almost verbatim? I think I speak for almost everyone in this thread when I say that if we wanted to have a debate with answersingenesis.org, we would go to answersingenesis.org.
Anyway, I'll get back to debating you, even though I consider it an excercise in futility at this point.
Before anyone asks, no, my knowledge of the Bible is not that extensive. I was using an article for the last few quotes. It can be found here: http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctri … en_web.htm
Anyway, I'll get back to debating you, even though I consider it an excercise in futility at this point.
You know what, I can't explain it any more than you can prove it. All either of us has is our opinion regarding the veracity of the writings in the Bible. I am of the opinion that humans tend to embellish things a bit as a matter of course. Sociologists have studied some of the miracles in the Bible, such as the 'miracle of food' where Jesus produced fish and bread (I believe) for an entire crowd. Their explanation was that Jesus did not actually cause food to appear miraculously, but instead convinced the crowd to share the food they were carrying with each other. I suppose you might consider this a miracle of psychology, and indeed it is quite impressive if it is true and not just a story. It is not, however, proof that Jesus was the son of God, simply that he was a good man that influenced many people in a good way.JaMDuDe wrote:
Skruples, the romans gave people on crosses vinegar and gall to drink so they wouldnt die of dehydration. Im still waiting for an explanation on how they knew the family He would come from and the town He would come from and His hands and feet would be pierced, and all the other prophecies. Saying the apocolypse hasnt happened so all prohpecies arent true is sad.
Have you ever studied evolution? Do you have any basis for you knowledge other than websites that tell you it's not true? Have you even graduated from grade school? This question is anyway quite pointless since I believe you were trying to prove that humans are unique and special, when I have shown that we are almost exactly like every other mammal on the face of the planet in this regard.JaMDuDe wrote:
If we all had the same personalities and one big event could wipe us all out, how did we "evolve" before the event happened?
I see. So Mohammed and his billions of followers today are a bunch of loonies. What about Buddhism? Buddha was said to have performed miracles, and there are even some interesting prophecies written about him. I suppose that means Buddhism is a work of God as well? Funny that the bible doesn't mention it as such.JaMDuDe wrote:
No, Mohammed didnt do miracles or anything, he went into a cave and came back with some writings and said god told him to write it.
I didn't say John Edwards talking to dead people was like Jesus. I said people believing that John Edwards was talking to dead people was like people believing that jesus was performing miracles. You seem unable or unwilling to make this distinction.JaMDuDe wrote:
Jesus was crucified and a few days later people saw him, over 500 people SAW him and some touched his hands and feet. Thats not like John Edwards talking to dead people through an earpiece.
For the last time no it doesn't. Genesis says the Earth and heavens were created in six days. If we wish to remain in the realm of the rational and scientific, this did not happen. The solar system took a hell of a lot longer than six days to form I can assure you. If you want to say 'well maybe a "day" means something different to god' you're just playing games with semantics. The fact is that Genesis is a creation myth, and nothing more. You can try and reconcile it in your mind all you like, but it won't work.JaMDuDe wrote:
I was just telling you guys that Genisis does go along with science.
Ah yes, lets see what inspired Him to act in the past.JaMDuDe wrote:
Theres no reason for him to burn down any cities today.
Freeing the Israelites, quite noble. I imagine the Jewish could have used a plague of boils or two during world war 2, when they were being exterminated by the million. Why didn't He act on their behalf then? The Bible is full of God performing miracles, but then he stopped all of a sudden after the Bible was done? What, did he get tired?Exodus 6:6 wrote:
"Therefore, say to the Israelites: 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment. 7 I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians.
Kind and loving eh? Lets see what the Good Book has to say about that.JaMDuDe wrote:
It does say God is kind and loving and He wants everyone to go to heaven.
Genesis 19:23 wrote:
By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
Genesis 6:17 wrote:
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
It seems like God was a bit of a psycopath. Did the firstborn sons of everyone in Egypt deserve to die? Did the children of Sodom and Gomorrah deserve a fiery death? Obviously He thought so. I am assuming you believe these events also happened, since the Bible is of course infallible. So how about it? Do a few good deeds wipe out the wholesale slaughter of a few million people (or more, depending on how many people were on the Earth pre-flood)?Exodus 11:4 wrote:
So Moses said, "This is what the LORD says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. 5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. 6 There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again.
Lets examine that thought.JaMDuDe wrote:
There are no direct quotes from the bible on where babies go...He would not send babies who havent sinned to hell, or even children who never heard of him.
Do these children go to heaven? This would also seem to contradict your earlier statement that people choose to be evil, and that God does not make people evil in advance.Psalm 58:3 wrote:
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
seems pretty clear cut, you have to believe in Jesus to be saved. Infants cannot believe in Jesus, thus they are doomed.John 3:16 wrote:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
Before anyone asks, no, my knowledge of the Bible is not that extensive. I was using an article for the last few quotes. It can be found here: http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctri … en_web.htm
I think you're being a bit pedantic here. Just because he wrongly said 'it is' instead of 'it will be', there's no reason to have that kind of resonse.wannabe_tank_whore wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_ColliderMarconius wrote:
wombat, the bible can be argued since it's a BOOK. You can believe it was written by god, but in reality, it was written just as all books today are written. By humans. Since no one can offer up any proof that god wrote the bible without having to rely on the suspension of disbelief that is faith, it obviously comes under much scrutiny as the more supernatural things that occur inside of it cannot be recreated.
The Big Bang Theory is still being tested, but it has come up with more conceivable and solid proof than just relying on a written passage that's meant to just be accepted. Obviously, the events creating the Big Bang cannot occur on our planet, though we can simulate said events on an extremely minor scale using the Large Hadron Collider at CERN and any of the cyclotron/particle accelerators in the world. We've been able to break the atom down into its components, and further down to the leptons and their structures. We've established and observed the existence of the 4 fundamental forces in this universe. We've constantly questioned, pushed, tested, experimented in order to gain more knowledge and understanding.
And rather than wanting to think of how utterly astounding that world is, you'd rather not think about it and just attribute it all to a few sentences in a book written over 2000 years ago, believe that as being solid and unquestionable fact, and go about your life.
The spleen produces and removes blood cells from our immune systems, if you wanted to know. If you feel that science is failing in fully understanding something, maybe you should look deeper into the causes, such as the beginning threads of science being held back by a dominant faith-based authority.
Marconius at it again.
"It is currently under construction, and scheduled to start operation in 2007, when it will become the world's largest particle accelerator."
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
Jamdude, you're a kidJaMDuDe wrote:
I cant believe you actually think there are millions of advanced civilizations in our galaxy, that just shows how gullible you are. I know you will say i am too but i question what im told.
JamDude,
I like your enthusiasm about being a Christian and all, but your methods and how you believe in the existance of God needs to be honed. Don't believe everything that you find on the internet, Christian or non-Christian......scrutinize everything. When you go to the answersingenesis website for virtually every answer and retort, it makes you look one-dimensional and a shill, especially when there is many disputable things on that website. You don't even have to use that website to prop up your beliefs, you're better off going solo. Let me offer you some tips:
1. Open minds means open dialogue = meaningful conversation and debate. There's alot of closed minds on this thread which generally became a "I'm better than you because I ........." thread. It was/has been going on both (and dare I say 3?) sides of the issue. If you don't have an open mind yourself, don't expect others to open up to you.
2. If you don't know it, research it. Even take science classes.....especially the Bio, Chem and Physics classes. A good scientific background will mean that you made a good faith effort in understanding the Universe we live in. Heck, I even took Astronomy since I love stargazing and the space sciences. Get a good background in these sciences so they know (and you know) what you are talking about.
3. Don't condescend even if they are condescending. Expect them to be condescending. They don't believe it unless they see it. Think of the disciple Thomas and what he did to come to believe. Some people will always require proof before they put "faith" into it......which really isn't faith.....it's grounding oneself in facts. That's not a horrible thing, just respect it and move on.
4. Be honest.
5. Be sincere.
6. If you are not, apologize and try better next time.
You probably are a teenager or a very young adult. You are gonna experience things that are gonna shake up your beliefs sooner or later. AND THAT'S OK. Who hasn't been put to the test? You're gonna find YOUR path to God in your own way, in your own time. Don't let others dictate to you "how it should be".....and I'm not just talking about any non-believers, I'm also talking (especially) about Christians who feel they must indoctrinate the world to their EXPLICIT views on God, the Bible, etc....that's not the way to find God. It's much more personal than that.
For your efforts, although slightly misguided......I'm giving you a +1, despite the fact you -1'd me last week. You need the points more than I do, but if anything you get from here, I hope you can truly open yourself up to reason and actually exercise some of that freewill you have been given to find God on your own terms, not someone elses. Peace.
I like your enthusiasm about being a Christian and all, but your methods and how you believe in the existance of God needs to be honed. Don't believe everything that you find on the internet, Christian or non-Christian......scrutinize everything. When you go to the answersingenesis website for virtually every answer and retort, it makes you look one-dimensional and a shill, especially when there is many disputable things on that website. You don't even have to use that website to prop up your beliefs, you're better off going solo. Let me offer you some tips:
1. Open minds means open dialogue = meaningful conversation and debate. There's alot of closed minds on this thread which generally became a "I'm better than you because I ........." thread. It was/has been going on both (and dare I say 3?) sides of the issue. If you don't have an open mind yourself, don't expect others to open up to you.
2. If you don't know it, research it. Even take science classes.....especially the Bio, Chem and Physics classes. A good scientific background will mean that you made a good faith effort in understanding the Universe we live in. Heck, I even took Astronomy since I love stargazing and the space sciences. Get a good background in these sciences so they know (and you know) what you are talking about.
3. Don't condescend even if they are condescending. Expect them to be condescending. They don't believe it unless they see it. Think of the disciple Thomas and what he did to come to believe. Some people will always require proof before they put "faith" into it......which really isn't faith.....it's grounding oneself in facts. That's not a horrible thing, just respect it and move on.
4. Be honest.
5. Be sincere.
6. If you are not, apologize and try better next time.
You probably are a teenager or a very young adult. You are gonna experience things that are gonna shake up your beliefs sooner or later. AND THAT'S OK. Who hasn't been put to the test? You're gonna find YOUR path to God in your own way, in your own time. Don't let others dictate to you "how it should be".....and I'm not just talking about any non-believers, I'm also talking (especially) about Christians who feel they must indoctrinate the world to their EXPLICIT views on God, the Bible, etc....that's not the way to find God. It's much more personal than that.
For your efforts, although slightly misguided......I'm giving you a +1, despite the fact you -1'd me last week. You need the points more than I do, but if anything you get from here, I hope you can truly open yourself up to reason and actually exercise some of that freewill you have been given to find God on your own terms, not someone elses. Peace.
I gave you a +1 for this very well written, thought out comment, to what has otherwise become a "Because ...... says so." thread.Yeticus Rex wrote:
JamDude,
I like your enthusiasm about being a Christian and all, but your methods and how you believe in the existance of God needs to be honed. Don't believe everything that you find on the internet, Christian or non-Christian......scrutinize everything. When you go to the answersingenesis website for virtually every answer and retort, it makes you look one-dimensional and a shill, especially when there is many disputable things on that website. You don't even have to use that website to prop up your beliefs, you're better off going solo. Let me offer you some tips:
1. Open minds means open dialogue = meaningful conversation and debate. There's alot of closed minds on this thread which generally became a "I'm better than you because I ........." thread. It was/has been going on both (and dare I say 3?) sides of the issue. If you don't have an open mind yourself, don't expect others to open up to you.
2. If you don't know it, research it. Even take science classes.....especially the Bio, Chem and Physics classes. A good scientific background will mean that you made a good faith effort in understanding the Universe we live in. Heck, I even took Astronomy since I love stargazing and the space sciences. Get a good background in these sciences so they know (and you know) what you are talking about.
3. Don't condescend even if they are condescending. Expect them to be condescending. They don't believe it unless they see it. Think of the disciple Thomas and what he did to come to believe. Some people will always require proof before they put "faith" into it......which really isn't faith.....it's grounding oneself in facts. That's not a horrible thing, just respect it and move on.
4. Be honest.
5. Be sincere.
6. If you are not, apologize and try better next time.
You probably are a teenager or a very young adult. You are gonna experience things that are gonna shake up your beliefs sooner or later. AND THAT'S OK. Who hasn't been put to the test? You're gonna find YOUR path to God in your own way, in your own time. Don't let others dictate to you "how it should be".....and I'm not just talking about any non-believers, I'm also talking (especially) about Christians who feel they must indoctrinate the world to their EXPLICIT views on God, the Bible, etc....that's not the way to find God. It's much more personal than that.
For your efforts, although slightly misguided......I'm giving you a +1, despite the fact you -1'd me last week. You need the points more than I do, but if anything you get from here, I hope you can truly open yourself up to reason and actually exercise some of that freewill you have been given to find God on your own terms, not someone elses. Peace.
you guys are n00bs -1 for everyone!
I've been out of this post for a week so i'm not caught up on where you stand but bravo on your post. +1. Well said.Yeticus Rex wrote:
JamDude,
I like your enthusiasm about being a Christian and all, but your methods and how you believe in the existance of God needs to be honed. Don't believe everything that you find on the internet, Christian or non-Christian......scrutinize everything. When you go to the answersingenesis website for virtually every answer and retort, it makes you look one-dimensional and a shill, especially when there is many disputable things on that website. You don't even have to use that website to prop up your beliefs, you're better off going solo. Let me offer you some tips:
1. Open minds means open dialogue = meaningful conversation and debate. There's alot of closed minds on this thread which generally became a "I'm better than you because I ........." thread. It was/has been going on both (and dare I say 3?) sides of the issue. If you don't have an open mind yourself, don't expect others to open up to you.
2. If you don't know it, research it. Even take science classes.....especially the Bio, Chem and Physics classes. A good scientific background will mean that you made a good faith effort in understanding the Universe we live in. Heck, I even took Astronomy since I love stargazing and the space sciences. Get a good background in these sciences so they know (and you know) what you are talking about.
3. Don't condescend even if they are condescending. Expect them to be condescending. They don't believe it unless they see it. Think of the disciple Thomas and what he did to come to believe. Some people will always require proof before they put "faith" into it......which really isn't faith.....it's grounding oneself in facts. That's not a horrible thing, just respect it and move on.
4. Be honest.
5. Be sincere.
6. If you are not, apologize and try better next time.
You probably are a teenager or a very young adult. You are gonna experience things that are gonna shake up your beliefs sooner or later. AND THAT'S OK. Who hasn't been put to the test? You're gonna find YOUR path to God in your own way, in your own time. Don't let others dictate to you "how it should be".....and I'm not just talking about any non-believers, I'm also talking (especially) about Christians who feel they must indoctrinate the world to their EXPLICIT views on God, the Bible, etc....that's not the way to find God. It's much more personal than that.
For your efforts, although slightly misguided......I'm giving you a +1, despite the fact you -1'd me last week. You need the points more than I do, but if anything you get from here, I hope you can truly open yourself up to reason and actually exercise some of that freewill you have been given to find God on your own terms, not someone elses. Peace.
As a Christian myself I agree where JamDude is coming from but not necessarily how he (?) comes to his condlusions.
Creation vs. evolution: There seems to be as much evidence either way. You have to look at what you feel makes the most sense. It's a personal decision and one that should not be taken lightly. As a Christian it would go against what you are taught to believe to go for evolution. I won't lie and tell you that I haven't doubted about the whole evolution thing in the past.
I want to go back to the beginning of this thread: Havent you ever doubted...
Haven't we all doubted about what we believe on this topic? If you really do your research it can't help but make you stop and think...
C'mon JamDude, I am trying to help you. Another -1? What up, my Christian whose-not-acting-so-Christian homie?JaMDuDe wrote:
you guys are n00bs -1 for everyone!
First thing, Donut you have proven me wrong. The tides do very easily explain a possibility of what could have happened with the dividing of the sea. The saddest part of this is that lately I had to do a report on alternative energy and I was given tidal power, and I can't believe I didn't think of that myself.
Anyways, did you notice how the other people made their arguments? Showing respect and understanding for both sides even if they don't believe in both sides personally. Now I know I've probably been an ass on this topic in the past and I'm sorry. I've probably gone about this the wrong way too. All I've been trying to do is say that I'm tired of people pitying other people on stupid things like this, because both sides of the argument have good ideas and flaws involved with them. Because there is no way to solve this or say which side is right, its just plain ignorant to act like your better than someone or seem superior to someone else because you believe their ideas are incorrect and stupid.
Also, Yeticus, you said that there have been closed minds on 3 sides of this discussion. I'm just curious, but what do you consider the three sides? Besides that I would also like to thank you for the "very well written, thought out comment". I agree with agent.
To wrap this up I'd just like to say again that I'm sorry if I may have been a jerk. Yeticus's post made me realize that even though I may not have like jamdude's (or other people's) posting, I might have been wrong with the way I responded to some of them. We all can get frustrated when trying hard to make a point or showing a point of view.
Okay, I think there are a few things wrong with this. First off, I don't think they had the knowledge back then to have equipment that would cage up all the species at that time. Secondly, how were the really small or even microscopic organisms caged? Again they did not have the equipment to effectively quarantine all of these animals against all of the bacteria and fungi that could be dangerous to the other creatures health. I also consider a virus to be an organism (not sure if its official or anything), so how would those be contained without harming the other animals. Even if you don't include a virus as an organism, there is bacteria that is highly harmful to many forms of wild-life, and I just don't think it would be possible.JaMDuDe wrote:
Well you said two of every animal couldnt fit on the ark. The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits, thats the size of 522 American railroad stalk cars, each of them can hold 240 sheep. If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50x50x30 centimetres, 16,000 animals would only take up 14.4 stock cars. That would leaves 507.6 stock cars for food/water and anything else. Thats plenty of room. I know i look like it to you but im not an idiot who is gona follow stuff cause people told me to.
Honesly jamdude, your a huge piece of work. Yeticus made this beautiful speech giving you a second chance to try and redeem yourself and you threw it all away. Sadly this is the first original thought you've had on this post.JaMDuDe wrote:
you guys are n00bs -1 for everyone!
Anyways, did you notice how the other people made their arguments? Showing respect and understanding for both sides even if they don't believe in both sides personally. Now I know I've probably been an ass on this topic in the past and I'm sorry. I've probably gone about this the wrong way too. All I've been trying to do is say that I'm tired of people pitying other people on stupid things like this, because both sides of the argument have good ideas and flaws involved with them. Because there is no way to solve this or say which side is right, its just plain ignorant to act like your better than someone or seem superior to someone else because you believe their ideas are incorrect and stupid.
Also, Yeticus, you said that there have been closed minds on 3 sides of this discussion. I'm just curious, but what do you consider the three sides? Besides that I would also like to thank you for the "very well written, thought out comment". I agree with agent.
To wrap this up I'd just like to say again that I'm sorry if I may have been a jerk. Yeticus's post made me realize that even though I may not have like jamdude's (or other people's) posting, I might have been wrong with the way I responded to some of them. We all can get frustrated when trying hard to make a point or showing a point of view.
Wow, this guy feels a lot like I do. Just thought I'd say that he sums up this very nicely and I liked this post.Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
Back with the original post, I feel the authors opinion. I grew up always going to church and considering myself christian. Then when I got older I started questioning it. Reading genisis felt no different than any other creationalist story. Now I only believe what I know to be true. I feel that any religion may be correct or that any theory may be correct. We just don't know.
I'm the third side....I'm grounded in the factual sciences, yet I still maintain my faith in God. Nowadays, it seems like a dying breed. I have degrees in Applied Math, Comp. Sci., with minors in Geography and Astronomy and yet have been pretty much a Catholic my whole life. Like I said before, I have reconciled my faith with science and I am at peace with it. I don't need to try to cram the Bible into science books and vice-versa......unlike some other people on this planet. There are other scientists as well as theologians who have the same outlook as I do.....not that I need their company or anything like that; but there are people who come to the same conclusions that I did, independently and usually on their own terms.SilentNoise105 wrote:
Also, Yeticus, you said that there have been closed minds on 3 sides of this discussion. I'm just curious, but what do you consider the three sides? Besides that I would also like to thank you for the "very well written, thought out comment". I agree with agent.
To wrap this up I'd just like to say again that I'm sorry if I may have been a jerk. Yeticus's post made me realize that even though I may not have like jamdude's (or other people's) posting, I might have been wrong with the way I responded to some of them. We all can get frustrated when trying hard to make a point or showing a point of view.
Wow, Applied Mathematics and Computer Sciences? If you don't mind me asking, what type of a job do you have? I'm just curious because those are two areas I'm thinking about going into also.Yeticus Rex wrote:
I'm the third side....I'm grounded in the factual sciences, yet I still maintain my faith in God. Nowadays, it seems like a dying breed. I have degrees in Applied Math, Comp. Sci., with minors in Geography and Astronomy and yet have been pretty much a Catholic my whole life. Like I said before, I have reconciled my faith with science and I am at peace with it. I don't need to try to cram the Bible into science books and vice-versa......unlike some other people on this planet. There are other scientists as well as theologians who have the same outlook as I do.....not that I need their company or anything like that; but there are people who come to the same conclusions that I did, independently and usually on their own terms.
+1 to Rex. that was fantastic.
Hello
First, let me establish myself. I am a 24 year old business owner. I own an arcade in sussex county, NJ. I graduated Cum Laude from Seton Hall University with a double major in Religious Studies and Catholic Studies. My wife, whom I met as a freshman there, was a chemistry major and now teaches AP chemistry at Paramus Catholic high school. Because of our majors being religion and science, I wrote my Senior thesis paper on precisely that: religion and science...specifically Creationism (Genesis) vs. Evolution (Darwin). I have done a massive amount of research from both sides of the perspective because I did not approach the issue to prove or disprove, but to objectively come to a conclusion.
I have found, when it comes to religion, particularly to Christians of faith, you need not approach educating yourself on an issue from the "I need to prove myself right" perspective, because you will find that if your research is thorough and honest, you will probably find that there is no incongruities.
I am a Roman Catholic Christian, which differs from Fundamentalist Christians several ways, the most relevant being that we do not believe the Bible is the ONLY source of Christ's teaching. We believe that everything in the bible is true IN MATTERS OF FAITH AND MORALS, but we do not believe that it is a science book, nor a history book. It is a book of faith and of love. If you disagree with me, read the first three chapters of Genesis. There are two creation stories, and they CLEARLY contradict each other: the first creation story Man was created first, and in the second creation story (adam and eve) man was created last.
I could go on forever about religion and science. I love the subject and I have studied it extensively. However, I think the question that needs to be addressed is, what is the point of our lives; what is the point of our existence?
In short, the answer is, to love. That is what Jesus says: "I give you a new commandment: that you love one another as I have loved you" (John: 13:34). This is what the creation is about. St. John says in his first epistle "God is love" (1 John 4:8). By logic, Love created this world. This may be difficult to understand, particularly with the initial premise that started this long thread: how can one believe in God with all the suffering in the world?
Have you ever wondered why God put the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden? The answer is, to give us the choice to love God or to not love God. If the choice to not love God were not present to us, then loving God would be no accomplishment. Regardless of whether that tree ever grew in a garden named Eden, the truth that the story represents is real. We have a choice to love God. Some choose to love God. Many choose not to. And if you think about it, even if you do not believe that a talking snake convinced a woman to eat a piece of fruit, our suffering that we experience can all be traced back to some choice to love something other than God more than God Himself. Be it our own choice, or that of people we know, or even a decision people made decades or centuries ago.
For suffering, the bottom line is this: that we all affect each other. For a true believer, suffering, although by its nature is unpleasant, is a blessing, because for the same reason that God gave us the option to love Him or not love Him in the Garden of Eden, when we experience suffering we have the opportunity to make a very deliberate choice to love God or to hate God. And our one life on this earth gives us the opportunity to make that choice through the decisions we make and the actions we take to love God by loving one another, or not to.
Boy I love this stuff
Hello
First, let me establish myself. I am a 24 year old business owner. I own an arcade in sussex county, NJ. I graduated Cum Laude from Seton Hall University with a double major in Religious Studies and Catholic Studies. My wife, whom I met as a freshman there, was a chemistry major and now teaches AP chemistry at Paramus Catholic high school. Because of our majors being religion and science, I wrote my Senior thesis paper on precisely that: religion and science...specifically Creationism (Genesis) vs. Evolution (Darwin). I have done a massive amount of research from both sides of the perspective because I did not approach the issue to prove or disprove, but to objectively come to a conclusion.
I have found, when it comes to religion, particularly to Christians of faith, you need not approach educating yourself on an issue from the "I need to prove myself right" perspective, because you will find that if your research is thorough and honest, you will probably find that there is no incongruities.
I am a Roman Catholic Christian, which differs from Fundamentalist Christians several ways, the most relevant being that we do not believe the Bible is the ONLY source of Christ's teaching. We believe that everything in the bible is true IN MATTERS OF FAITH AND MORALS, but we do not believe that it is a science book, nor a history book. It is a book of faith and of love. If you disagree with me, read the first three chapters of Genesis. There are two creation stories, and they CLEARLY contradict each other: the first creation story Man was created first, and in the second creation story (adam and eve) man was created last.
I could go on forever about religion and science. I love the subject and I have studied it extensively. However, I think the question that needs to be addressed is, what is the point of our lives; what is the point of our existence?
In short, the answer is, to love. That is what Jesus says: "I give you a new commandment: that you love one another as I have loved you" (John: 13:34). This is what the creation is about. St. John says in his first epistle "God is love" (1 John 4:8). By logic, Love created this world. This may be difficult to understand, particularly with the initial premise that started this long thread: how can one believe in God with all the suffering in the world?
Have you ever wondered why God put the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden? The answer is, to give us the choice to love God or to not love God. If the choice to not love God were not present to us, then loving God would be no accomplishment. Regardless of whether that tree ever grew in a garden named Eden, the truth that the story represents is real. We have a choice to love God. Some choose to love God. Many choose not to. And if you think about it, even if you do not believe that a talking snake convinced a woman to eat a piece of fruit, our suffering that we experience can all be traced back to some choice to love something other than God more than God Himself. Be it our own choice, or that of people we know, or even a decision people made decades or centuries ago.
For suffering, the bottom line is this: that we all affect each other. For a true believer, suffering, although by its nature is unpleasant, is a blessing, because for the same reason that God gave us the option to love Him or not love Him in the Garden of Eden, when we experience suffering we have the opportunity to make a very deliberate choice to love God or to hate God. And our one life on this earth gives us the opportunity to make that choice through the decisions we make and the actions we take to love God by loving one another, or not to.
Boy I love this stuff
Last edited by G3|Genius (2006-04-25 15:19:24)
Thanks for a very good post. Now if you could show Jamdude that...G3|Genius wrote:
+1 to Rex. that was fantastic.
Hello
First, let me establish myself. I am a 24 year old business owner. I own an arcade in sussex county, NJ. I graduated Cum Laude from Seton Hall University with a double major in Religious Studies and Catholic Studies. My wife, whom I met as a freshman there, was a chemistry major and now teaches AP chemistry at Paramus Catholic high school. Because of our majors being religion and science, I wrote my Senior thesis paper on precisely that: religion and science...specifically Creationism (Genesis) vs. Evolution (Darwin). I have done a massive amount of research from both sides of the perspective because I did not approach the issue to prove or disprove, but to objectively come to a conclusion.
I have found, when it comes to religion, particularly to Christians of faith, you need not approach educating yourself on an issue from the "I need to prove myself right" perspective, because you will find that if your research is thorough and honest, you will probably find that there is no incongruities.
I am a Roman Catholic Christian, which differs from Fundamentalist Christians several ways, the most relevant being that we do not believe the Bible is the ONLY source of Christ's teaching. We believe that everything in the bible is true IN MATTERS OF FAITH AND MORALS, but we do not believe that it is a science book, nor a history book. It is a book of faith and of love. If you disagree with me, read the first three chapters of Genesis. There are two creation stories, and they CLEARLY contradict each other: the first creation story Man was created first, and in the second creation story (adam and eve) man was created last.
I could go on forever about religion and science. I love the subject and I have studied it extensively. However, I think the question that needs to be addressed is, what is the point of our lives; what is the point of our existence?
In short, the answer is, to love. That is what Jesus says: "I give you a new commandment: that you love one another as I have loved you" (John: 13:34). This is what the creation is about. St. John says in his first epistle "God is love" (1 John 4:8). By logic, Love created this world. This may be difficult to understand, particularly with the initial premise that started this long thread: how can one believe in God with all the suffering in the world?
Have you ever wondered why God put the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden? The answer is, to give us the choice to love God or to not love God. If the choice to not love God were not present to us, then loving God would be no accomplishment. Regardless of whether that tree ever grew in a garden named Eden, the truth that the story represents is real. We have a choice to love God. Some choose to love God. Many choose not to. And if you think about it, even if you do not believe that a talking snake convinced a woman to eat a piece of fruit, our suffering that we experience can all be traced back to some choice to love something other than God more than God Himself. Be it our own choice, or that of people we know, or even a decision people made decades or centuries ago.
For suffering, the bottom line is this: that we all affect each other. For a true believer, suffering, although by its nature is unpleasant, is a blessing, because for the same reason that God gave us the option to love Him or not love Him in the Garden of Eden, when we experience suffering we have the opportunity to make a very deliberate choice to love God or to hate God. And our one life on this earth gives us the opportunity to make that choice through the decisions we make and the actions we take to love God by loving one another, or not to.
Boy I love this stuff
It is important that we realise that there is no line between religion and science. I know scientists who have strong beliefs in God, and priests who have appeared on physics documentaries.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Drumroll please..................SilentNoise105 wrote:
Wow, Applied Mathematics and Computer Sciences? If you don't mind me asking, what type of a job do you have? I'm just curious because those are two areas I'm thinking about going into also.Yeticus Rex wrote:
I'm the third side....I'm grounded in the factual sciences, yet I still maintain my faith in God. Nowadays, it seems like a dying breed. I have degrees in Applied Math, Comp. Sci., with minors in Geography and Astronomy and yet have been pretty much a Catholic my whole life. Like I said before, I have reconciled my faith with science and I am at peace with it. I don't need to try to cram the Bible into science books and vice-versa......unlike some other people on this planet. There are other scientists as well as theologians who have the same outlook as I do.....not that I need their company or anything like that; but there are people who come to the same conclusions that I did, independently and usually on their own terms.
I'm a SOCIAL WORKER!!!!
Actually, my wife and I run 2 day programs for the developmentally disabled. I'm the financial half and she's the program half of the company. So the only numbers I play with are financial and accounting numbers, and excel and word are my computer programs that I run. But hey, I feel like I'm doing something positive! After I got those degrees, I went back and quickly took some courses in Accounting, Business Law, and Business Management. I know enough to stay out of trouble for these last 14 years, and that's saying alot in the state of California. I still have a love for Astronomy though. Got a 8" Dobsonian and sometimes I go out into the middle of the desert looking at stars, planets, comets, clusters, galaxies, etc.
Well said Spark, there are well respected scientists on both sides.Spark wrote:
Thanks for a very good post. Now if you could show Jamdude that...G3|Genius wrote:
+1 to Rex. that was fantastic.
Boy I love this stuff
It is important that we realise that there is no line between religion and science. I know scientists who have strong beliefs in God, and priests who have appeared on physics documentaries.
I'm no expert on either side although you know my chosen side. There are unexplained things both ways and one needs to be continually open to exploring the possibility, however remote depending on your belief system.
G3|Genius this is an attitude I can respect.
But for those people that still say there would be just as much !scientific! evidence that all bible stories are literally true.....I just can t stop laughing.
When I have the choice to explain things with natural processes that are mostly known with a few things we are still working on (why would you expect us to know everything by now) or to assume there is a supernatural being when I have not seen anything supernatural.....I ll think the first option is more likely.
I respect if someone believes in god or allah because one can not know for sure and it would give life a sense.
But taking the bible literally......come on.....
Sometimes I just think it s arrogant to think that we are any better than animals when the only difference is a bigger and better brain. Don t get me wrong I m not a vegetarian or sth.....
But for those people that still say there would be just as much !scientific! evidence that all bible stories are literally true.....I just can t stop laughing.
When I have the choice to explain things with natural processes that are mostly known with a few things we are still working on (why would you expect us to know everything by now) or to assume there is a supernatural being when I have not seen anything supernatural.....I ll think the first option is more likely.
I respect if someone believes in god or allah because one can not know for sure and it would give life a sense.
But taking the bible literally......come on.....
Sometimes I just think it s arrogant to think that we are any better than animals when the only difference is a bigger and better brain. Don t get me wrong I m not a vegetarian or sth.....
Is arrogance the word you want to use? What's the smartest animal we know, a dolphin? we applaud a dolphin because it can do a backflip, bounce a ball off its nose, and jump through a hoop simultaneously. With a little time Fisher Price could create a windup toy that does the same thing.ArMaG3dD0n wrote:
Sometimes I just think it s arrogant to think that we are any better than animals when the only difference is a bigger and better brain. Don t get me wrong I m not a vegetarian or sth.....
Our ability to discuss issues such as this forum discusses illustrates that we are superior. It's not size or processing speed of brain. It's our ability to act beyond instinct without being trained to do so. From your above quote, I think you argue that our ability to do what we can do is simply a matter of chance...random genetic "defects" that helped a species survive better and eventually over time that species became became homo sapiens.
sapiens comes from the Latin word for "wise", incidentally.
Would you argue that, in a sense, our world was born out of chaos (as opposed to order)? I argue that chaos does not exist in itself but is our way to describe the ABSENCE OF ORDER. It's similar to darkness and light. We perceive the absence of light and call it darkness. However, the concept of darkness would not exist if we did not know light. "Nothing" is the absence of something. "Nothing" can never be a person place or thing. It will always represent the absence of person place or thing. In the same way, we perceive chaos, but in truth chaos would not exist if we did not have an inherent understanding of order.
Our ability as a race to recognize that there is order rather than chaos--and the way that throughout history we have unconsciously utilized this truth--is what has enabled us to build our human civilization to what it is today. We have built our cvilization on such principles as, "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." To know that Newton's third law ALWAYS happens is an example for the argument that creation was an ordered process not a chaotic chain of events. To be able to understand and manipulate assumed truths such as these makes us superior.
To believe that humans are superior to animals is not arrogance. It is truth. A cheetah will always outrun a human, but that does not make the human inferior, because when push comes to shove, we can move faster than cheetahs, fly higher than eagles, dig deeper than groundhogs, build better than beavers, and swim faster than dolphins.
Last edited by G3|Genius (2006-04-26 09:42:02)
Your quote itself is disrespectful to everyone who practices a faith, who happen to be human beings.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
I believe that we need to treat everyone with dignity, compassion, and respect because they are a human being, and not some ficticious parent figure that is going to punish us if we don't.
And? It's still a good dogma to follow, and the basis of any organized religion.Erkut.hv wrote:
Your quote itself is disrespectful to everyone who practices a faith, who happen to be human beings.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
I believe that we need to treat everyone with dignity, compassion, and respect because they are a human being, and not some ficticious parent figure that is going to punish us if we don't.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Edited, I read the wrong friggin page and responded.
Last edited by Erkut.hv (2006-04-27 06:42:23)
I'm just curious... Do you believe in ghosts, aliens (as in those who fly UFOs), and do you apply the same logic in those categories as well?ArMaG3dD0n wrote:
G3|Genius this is an attitude I can respect.
But for those people that still say there would be just as much !scientific! evidence that all bible stories are literally true.....I just can t stop laughing.
When I have the choice to explain things with natural processes that are mostly known with a few things we are still working on (why would you expect us to know everything by now) or to assume there is a supernatural being when I have not seen anything supernatural.....I ll think the first option is more likely.
I respect if someone believes in god or allah because one can not know for sure and it would give life a sense.
But taking the bible literally......come on.....
Sometimes I just think it s arrogant to think that we are any better than animals when the only difference is a bigger and better brain. Don t get me wrong I m not a vegetarian or sth.....
No I do not believe in ghosts. Just like I said: I dont see the need to assume there is anything supernatural.
Aliens? Well those in UFOs are probably not very likely......as for the "real" aliens anywhere in the universe......one can not know
What do you want to say?
Wouldn t it be more interesting to ask someone who believes in god---->supernatural whether he believes in ghosts or sth. like that?
I m trying hard but I don t see your point at all.
Is there any?
Aliens? Well those in UFOs are probably not very likely......as for the "real" aliens anywhere in the universe......one can not know
What do you want to say?
Wouldn t it be more interesting to ask someone who believes in god---->supernatural whether he believes in ghosts or sth. like that?
I m trying hard but I don t see your point at all.
Is there any?
Last edited by ArMaG3dD0n (2006-04-27 13:41:54)
noooooo don't hurt me with your -1 Mr bible manJaMDuDe wrote:
you guys are n00bs -1 for everyone!
Last edited by herrr_smity (2006-04-27 14:46:07)