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2010-02-25 04:11:36
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7061|Moscow, Russia

Vilham wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Vilham wrote:

One im reading right now: Berlin by Antony Beever
well... matrix has you.
Are you really trying to disprove one of the most thorough historical authors out there with that comment?
whan he takes things out of context? sure. when he publishes sensational bullshit? abso-fucking-lutely. when he spews propaganda of worst description just to sell his fucking stuff? unquestionably.

The majority of the documentation he references are Russian documents ffs.
/sigh. yeah, yeah...

Open your eyes.
what to? i'm old enough to have personally spoken to those who actually fought in that war while they were still in their right mind and good spirits, dude. to those who went from stalingrad to berlin. to the people, who had no reason to lie, much less sell books of the fucking "popular history" to me. you'll have to exuse me, but i'll take their view over mr. beever's.

Shahter wrote:

since when did russia (or anybody) have an invisible army to prepare?
Russia wouldn't need to mobilize much of its forces to overpower belarus. Or do you think every time Russia is preparing for training maneuvers (which would be perfect cover for invasion) NATO mobilizes its forces just incase, ofc they don't. Then theres the fact that a lot of preparation is in the planning not in the logistics, something that can easily be done in secret.
first, as already mentioned, russia wouldn't probably have to overpower belarus - even if they wont be participating in the hypotetical attack on poland they'll sure allow russian army to pass and use their infrastructure. but for NATO to miss such preperations - that would be a sign of weakness and inability to provide proper protection for their members.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-02-25 04:14:55
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Because Poland is part of NATO and the Patriot is essentially the NATO standard for SAMs? Ensures interoperability with other NATO countries? Replaces antiquated Soviet-era equipment that is not interoperable with NATO equipment?
Thats all terrific but what threat exactly are the Patriots there to defend against?
Probably the same threat these other NATO countries that operate the Patriot are prepared to defend against.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-02-25 04:34:49
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

Shahter wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Shahter wrote:


well... matrix has you.
Are you really trying to disprove one of the most thorough historical authors out there with that comment?
whan he takes things out of context? sure. when he publishes sensational bullshit? abso-fucking-lutely. when he spews propaganda of worst description just to sell his fucking stuff? unquestionably.

The majority of the documentation he references are Russian documents ffs.
/sigh. yeah, yeah...

Open your eyes.
what to? i'm old enough to have personally spoken to those who actually fought in that war while they were still in their right mind and good spirits, dude. to those who went from stalingrad to berlin. to the people, who had no reason to lie, much less sell books of the fucking "popular history" to me. you'll have to exuse me, but i'll take their view over mr. beever's.
dude I understand your desire to asert your coutnry's history a certain way but Beevor's books are meticulously researched and he used a LOT of Russian sources for his books, which you'd know if you read them, which I guess you haven't. It's not propaganda cos he has no agenda to advance. The Wehrmacht and SS did terrible things, but the Red Army did just as bad things, looked at from our vantage point in history.

It's good you've spoken with vets of the war, but they had one person's view in the middle of the biggest conflict ever ffs - their memories are important but cannot be taken to represent or take into account the bigger picture. Most of them I'm sure didn't understand why they were fighting beyond some vague idea of 'defending the fatherland'. Stalin was a bastard as bad as or worse than Hitler taken on any grounds you care to think of. That fact has nothing to do with the bravery of the people who fought for the USSR in WWII.
2010-02-25 04:36:11
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

FEOS wrote:

Probably the same threat these other NATO countries that operate the Patriot are prepared to defend against.
yeah which is what?
2010-02-25 05:12:40
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7061|Moscow, Russia

ruisleipa wrote:

It's not propaganda cos he has no agenda to advance.
he had to make it so his books are published and sold. that's enough of an agenda. as for the rest - you in the west don't know shit about ussr, stalin and stuff, you just keep chewing on what you are fed by your propaganda machine.
i don't expect you to understand - for that you'd have to live in russia for as long as i have - i was mainly replying to g@lt who keeps throwing the story of his family around like it proves something. war never changes (c). war crimes happen, they are performed by all sides in every conflict. nobody's clean and nobody's in position to be pointing a finger. i don't care about your "vantage point in history" if you try to paint everything in black and white, regardless of the sources and stuff. i only had a glimpse at beaver's book, yeah, but i can tell sensational crap when i see it.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-02-25 06:49:12
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

Shahter wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

It's not propaganda cos he has no agenda to advance.
he had to make it so his books are published and sold. that's enough of an agenda. as for the rest - you in the west don't know shit about ussr, stalin and stuff, you just keep chewing on what you are fed by your propaganda machine.
i don't expect you to understand - for that you'd have to live in russia for as long as i have - i was mainly replying to g@lt who keeps throwing the story of his family around like it proves something. war never changes (c). war crimes happen, they are performed by all sides in every conflict. nobody's clean and nobody's in position to be pointing a finger. i don't care about your "vantage point in history" if you try to paint everything in black and white, regardless of the sources and stuff. i only had a glimpse at beaver's book, yeah, but i can tell sensational crap when i see it.
dude, chill out. First off if you haven't actually read the book you don't understand it so you can't comment on it, it's that simple. No disrespect but you can't tell sensationalist crap without reading it, sorry. It's also true that it's not propaganda, or perhaps you can tell me how it could be since Beevor has no advantage to gain by painting Stalin in a certain light, plus the fact that his books aren't particularly kind to either the Germans or Russians. If you read Stalingrad you might find that your interviews and his share many similarities..but if you haven't read it you don't know.

Secondly I can't speak for others here but I've read some literature, in particular Alexander Solzhenitsyn's works, several times in fact, which was more than enough to convince me of the corruptness of Stalin's modes of power. But perhaps you consider his masterpieces to be propaganda as well? You are right in that no-one was 'innocent' in WWII when it came to war crimes. As usual it was the victors who defined who should be prosecuted for them.

I'm not trying to paint everything in black and white, and I agree with some of what you said, but tbh I suspect that you're under the grip of as much 'propaganda' as anyone whether they've read Beevor's book or not, which in any case are academic studies rather than propaganda tracts. I agree that galt's family history doesn't neccesarily have much bearing on anything outside his own family. But your 'interviews' with vets who, according to you, were of sound mind when you met them, don't necessarily have any weight unless they also are properly recorded and verified - something Beevor was meticulous with, as far as I can tell.  Plus I guess you are too young to have lived under Stalin, but perhaps you're satisified with the propaganda prevalent in certain sectors of Russia that say he was a demigod and saviour of russia, etc etc, while ignoring the millions who died under his rule?

Anyway, back OT, my guess is that if Russia really wanted to they could make a bloody good stab at invading lots of countries, including Finland, but such action would lead to WWIII probably. But you should never underestimate the more extreme fringes of Russian nationalism.
2010-02-25 07:24:09
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7061|Moscow, Russia

ruisleipa wrote:

dude, chill out.
i'm absolutely calm. your ignorance doesn't trouble or insult me - not one bit.

First off if you haven't actually read the book you don't understand it so you can't comment on it, it's that simple. No disrespect but you can't tell sensationalist crap without reading it, sorry.
i can. and i don't care about your respect or if you are sorry - you just don't know shit.

It's also true that it's not propaganda, or perhaps you can tell me how it could be since Beevor has no advantage to gain by painting Stalin in a certain light, plus the fact that his books aren't particularly kind to either the Germans or Russians. If you read Stalingrad you might find that your interviews and his share many similarities..but if you haven't read it you don't know.
do i look like a care?

Secondly I can't speak for others here but I've read some literature, in particular Alexander Solzhenitsyn's works, several times in fact
yeah, yeah, books by a gulag' snitch. kewl stuff.

which was more than enough to convince me of the corruptness of Stalin's modes of power.
there's never been "modes of power" which weren't corrupt, stalin's weren't exception.

But perhaps you consider his masterpieces to be propaganda as well?
of course.

You are right in that no-one was 'innocent' in WWII when it came to war crimes. As usual it was the victors who defined who should be prosecuted for them.
umm... right. point being?

I'm not trying to paint everything in black and white, and I agree with some of what you said, but tbh I suspect that you're under the grip of as much 'propaganda' as anyone whether they've read Beevor's book or not
of course i am, nobody's free of that shit. at least i'm trying to see throught it, unlike you i'm not taking solzhenitsyn "masterpieces" for real thing (i liked his books, btw. he could have been a very good writer had he tried his hand in actual literature).

which in any case are academic studies rather than propaganda tracts. I agree that galt's family history doesn't neccesarily have much bearing on anything outside his own family. But your 'interviews' with vets who, according to you, were of sound mind when you met them, don't necessarily have any weight unless they also are properly recorded and verified - something Beevor was meticulous with, as far as I can tell.
the vets, as i said, didn't have books to sell

Plus I guess you are too young to have lived under Stalin, but perhaps you're satisified with the propaganda prevalent in certain sectors of Russia that say he was a demigod and saviour of russia, etc etc, while ignoring the millions who died under his rule?
i never said he was demigod, his impact on russia's history and development is hard to overestimate though.

Anyway, back OT, my guess is that if Russia really wanted to they could make a bloody good stab at invading lots of countries, including Finland, but such action would lead to WWIII probably. But you should never underestimate the more extreme fringes of Russian nationalism.
russian nationalism is no more. it's been covered with so thick a layer of californication that you've nothing to worry about. what we do have here is a bunch of tactical missiles to install in kaliningrad - any takers?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-02-25 07:38:44
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|7052|UK
Russian propaganda rules supreme...
2010-02-25 07:39:29
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7002
Stalin successful turned one of the worlds greatest revolution right back into a totalitarian state. Same shit different title.
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2010-02-25 07:41:26
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7061|Moscow, Russia

Vilham wrote:

Russian propaganda rules supreme...
nah, i fails utterly in the face of its western counterpart as evidenced by the russia's current fucked up state.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-02-25 08:39:43
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7002

Shahter wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Russian propaganda rules supreme...
nah, i fails utterly in the face of its western counterpart as evidenced by the russia's current fucked up state.
Communism lost dickface. Get over it. I still lulz at Chernobyl.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-02-25 08:40:51
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

Shahter wrote:

i can. and i don't care about your respect or if you are sorry - you just don't know shit.
dude you're the one spounting off about shit you haven't read. just cos you live in russia you're obviously very ignorant about your history and current situation...

do i look like a care?
dunno what you look like but your posts are total illogical rants so...

yeah, yeah, books by a gulag' snitch. kewl stuff.
lol so much ignorance you obviously haven't read them, or tried to understand them.

there's never been "modes of power" which weren't corrupt, stalin's weren't exception.
good so we agree Stalin was a corrupt demigogue? ace.

of course.
Why?

umm... right. point being?
just agreeing with you. sorry about that. what was your point exactly?

of course i am, nobody's free of that shit. at least i'm trying to see throught it, unlike you i'm not taking solzhenitsyn "masterpieces" for real thing (i liked his books, btw. he could have been a very good writer had he tried his hand in actual literature).
lmao first you ijsult him then say he 'could have been a good writer' looolol your level of ignorance is amazing right here. you obviously HAVEN'T read them otherwise you might know he DID write 'literature' ya plonker.

the vets, as i said, didn't have books to sell
so everyone who writes a book is engaged in propaganda, as opposed to just writing a good book? wtf?

i never said he was demigod, his impact on russia's history and development is hard to overestimate though.
So? He was a monster. That you seem to love so much. If you lived in Germany you'd probably be a neo-fascist right?

russian nationalism is no more. it's been covered with so thick a layer of californication that you've nothing to worry about.
ya no more except with you apparently. dude, you live in Russia yet how is it I seem to have a much better idea about the fuck up that is your nationalism than you do? ooooh...propaganda? lol.
2010-02-25 08:43:37
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7061|Moscow, Russia

Cybargs wrote:

Shahter wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Russian propaganda rules supreme...
nah, i fails utterly in the face of its western counterpart as evidenced by the russia's current fucked up state.
Communism lost dickface. Get over it. I still lulz at Chernobyl.
you'd have to do better that that to insult me, sonny. a lot better.

edit: you too, ruisleipa.

Last edited by Shahter (2010-02-25 08:46:41)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-02-25 09:41:45
Longbow
Member
+163|6933|Odessa, Ukraine

Cybargs wrote:

Stalin successful turned one of the worlds greatest revolution right back into a totalitarian state.
If you would have at least a little knowledge about russian history in XX century you would have understand how wrong you are. Lenin & the gang were about word revolution thingy, they did not give a shit about russia. It was just the country and it's resources that they were about to suck off and 'throw into flame of world revoultion'. Stalin was probably the only sane person in the head of communist party during mid 20's. Stalin did not turn the state into totalitarian, it was already totalitarian. And by the way, greatest revolution massacred most of russia's political, military & science elite. How great for a greatest revolution, huh? Point for germans, for investing into Lenin's revoultion. If not him, Russia wont be so fucked up during last 90 years.
2010-02-25 10:58:48
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

Shahter wrote:

edit: you too, ruisleipa.
pff I'm not trying to insult you.
2010-02-25 11:26:23
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7061|Moscow, Russia

ruisleipa wrote:

Shahter wrote:

edit: you too, ruisleipa.
pff I'm not trying to insult you.
ah, so you are just being an ass then. well, fine with me either way.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-02-25 11:59:45
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

Shahter wrote:

ah, so you are just being an ass then. well, fine with me either way.
lol just back up your lame insults with some decent arguments and stop being so argumentative and we'll talk. Until then byeeee.
2010-02-25 20:59:11
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7002

Longbow wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Stalin successful turned one of the worlds greatest revolution right back into a totalitarian state.
If you would have at least a little knowledge about russian history in XX century you would have understand how wrong you are. Lenin & the gang were about word revolution thingy, they did not give a shit about russia. It was just the country and it's resources that they were about to suck off and 'throw into flame of world revoultion'. Stalin was probably the only sane person in the head of communist party during mid 20's. Stalin did not turn the state into totalitarian, it was already totalitarian. And by the way, greatest revolution massacred most of russia's political, military & science elite. How great for a greatest revolution, huh? Point for germans, for investing into Lenin's revoultion. If not him, Russia wont be so fucked up during last 90 years.
Yeah he was not a power freak at all.

If you read ANY history, sure russia was in a shit state, lost lots of troops during WW1, food is shite. Hell at least Lenin let in a bit of democracy with the Duma but noooooooooo Stalin just had to kill everyone he didn't like. Even killed Trotsky in fucking Mexico. Yeah completely necessary.
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2010-02-26 01:57:31
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7061|Moscow, Russia

ruisleipa wrote:

Shahter wrote:

ah, so you are just being an ass then. well, fine with me either way.
lol just back up your lame insults with some decent arguments and stop being so argumentative and we'll talk. Until then byeeee.
what makes you think i want to talk to you? i'm not FEOS who likes to play an insufferable know-it-all and babysit every retarded kid he meets. do you actually think that having read some books by a gulag snitch (yes, solzhenitsyn was recruited and worked with gulag authorities as an informant, but of course that part of his biography is absent from your books) and some sencationalist "popular history", you can tell me - a person who have been living in this country for almost thirty five years - which is which? you are completely nuts if you do, sonny. i've no desire to explain to you that fictional story and a coupla hundreds of pages doesn't make something a work of true literature. i don't expect you to understand how one can admire the writing style and use of language by certain author and completely disagree with the message and purpose of his works. i've not come here to educate anybody.
i'm sure you will come around, eventually, when you have some life experience under your belt. but untill then - fuck off, would you kindly.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-02-26 01:59:51
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

Shahter wrote:

what makes you think i want to talk to you?
aahh..the fact you keep posting lame insulting responses to my posts? Yeah that does the trick.

Shahter wrote:

read some books by a gulag snitch (yes, solzhenitsyn was recruited and worked with gulag authorities as an informant
good luck proving that. Oh, you can't. My bad.

Shahter wrote:

i'm sure you will come around, eventually, when you have some life experience under your belt.
oh and LMFAO at that one heheheheheh.

Last edited by ruisleipa (2010-02-26 02:02:12)

2010-02-26 02:07:29
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7061|Moscow, Russia

ruisleipa wrote:

Shahter wrote:

what makes you think i want to talk to you?
aahh..the fact you keep posting lame insulting responses to my posts? Yeah that does the trick.
ever heard of that thing called "sarcasm", kid? about a tonn of it was lost on you in my previous posts. but then again, english is neither your nor mine native language, so that probably excuses you. partially.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-02-26 02:13:49
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7061|Moscow, Russia

ruisleipa wrote:

Shahter wrote:

read some books by a gulag snitch (yes, solzhenitsyn was recruited and worked with gulag authorities as an informant
good luck proving that.
he confirmed it himself. move along already.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-02-26 02:52:06
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7002
I heard Russians hate mooslims more than Jews amirite.
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2010-02-26 03:01:19
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|7061|Moscow, Russia

Cybargs wrote:

I heard Russians hate mooslims more than Jews amirite.
russians are mostly internationalists - we hate everybody equally.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-02-26 03:49:31
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6508|teh FIN-land

Shahter wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

Shahter wrote:

read some books by a gulag snitch (yes, solzhenitsyn was recruited and worked with gulag authorities as an informant
good luck proving that.
he confirmed it himself. move along already.
oh yeah? where?

Shahter wrote:

ever heard of that thing called "sarcasm", kid? about a tonn of it was lost on you in my previous posts. but then again, english is neither your nor mine native language, so that probably excuses you. partially.
For sarcasm to be noticed on an internet forum it has to be so obvious it's like a massive truck with flashing lights driving along filled with 2 thousand people shouting 'THIS IS SARCASM'. So no, I didn't notice the 'tonn(e)' of it. Actually English is my native language, which probably explains why I didn't notice your 'sarcasm' If you'd like to point out specific sarcastic bits of your posts I'd be happy to re-read them to check if I can tell whether or not there is any even when you've pointed it out.

Anyway this is getting a bit boring and way off topic...just for a change.

 

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