Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5872

The entirely pointless G7 meeting this weekend only served to underline the fact that Europe is again entering a serious economic crisis.

At the end of the meeting yesterday, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner told reporters, “I just want to underscore they made it clear to us, they the European authorities, that they will manage this [the Greek debt crisis] with great care.”

But the Europeans are not being careful – and it’s not just about Greece any more.  Worries about government debt and associated public sector liabilities (e.g., because banking systems are in deep trouble) have spread through the eurozone to Spain and Portugal.  Ireland and Italy are next up for hostile reconsideration by the markets, and the UK may not be far behind.

What are the stronger European countries, specifically Germany and France, doing to contain the self-fulfilling fear that weaker eurozone countries may not be able to pay their debt – this panic that pushes up interest rates and makes it harder for beleaguered governments to actually pay?

The Europeans with deep-pockets are doing nothing – except insist that all countries under pressure cut their budgets quickly and in ways that are probably politically infeasible.  This kind of precipitate fiscal austerity contributed directly to the onset of the Great Depression in the 1930s.

The International Monetary Fund was created after World War II specifically to prevent such a situation from recurring.  The Fund is supposed to lend to countries in trouble, to cushion the blow of crisis.  The idea is not to prevent necessary adjustments – for example, in the form of budget deficit reduction – but to spread those out over time, to restore confidence, and to serve as an external seal of approval on a government’s credibility.

Dominique Strauss-Khan, the Managing Director of the IMF, said Thursday on French radio that the Fund stands ready to help Greece.  But he knows this is wishful thinking.
Full article
Before Anyone rips on posting something from a blog here are the credentials of the person who write this.
Simon Johnson is a British-American economist. He currently is the Ronald A. Kurtz Professor of Entrepreneurship at the Sloan School of Management at MIT. He has held a wide variety of academic and policy-related positions, including Professor of Economics at Duke University's Fuqua School of Business. From March 2007 through the end of August 2008 he was Chief Economist of the International Monetary Fund.
So paranoia or is Europe really in trouble?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6841
Ireland passed an austerity budget in December and despite all the claims of political infeasibilty we haven't heard a murmur out of the unions and support for Fianna Fáil actually rose four points. They cut government expenditure dramatically but left taxes largely untouched. It was the right thing to do. It presented a strong and stable image to international debt markets and has saved our fucking asses. I don't think Europe is in trouble - it's just the same old doom and gloom nonsense people have been peddling since this recession started. It's as if noone ever recovered from a recession before. It's pathetic.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6576|Éire
As Cam says, our Government have been making some pretty unpopular, but necessary, cutbacks of late and their popularity has actually risen. It's been tough on a lot of people but it hasn't really effected me at all to be honest; it's been good actually - as a result of the depression rents have come down, as have a lot of prices. I'm annoyed at my Government for having sleepwalked into this mess even though plenty of people were shouting from the rooftops that the banking crisis was a very real possibility, but if they can spare us from selling our souls to the IMF I will be grateful.

Last edited by Braddock (2010-02-07 13:33:28)

Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6834|San Diego, CA, USA
And to think it was us Americans that would start it with our trillion dollar deficits and increases taxes...perhaps Hodgeman is right...we need:

https://img192.imageshack.us/img192/9456/ds1402403v6.jpg
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6887|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:

it's just the same old doom and gloom nonsense people have been peddling since this recession started. It's as if noone ever recovered from a recession before. It's pathetic.
We had a well known economist predicting soup lines around the corner, unemployment @ 25%, and the stock market in the 5k's about a year ago. She hasn't been heard from since.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5644|London, England

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

it's just the same old doom and gloom nonsense people have been peddling since this recession started. It's as if noone ever recovered from a recession before. It's pathetic.
We had a well known economist predicting soup lines around the corner, unemployment @ 25%, and the stock market in the 5k's about a year ago. She hasn't been heard from since.
Who?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6887|132 and Bush

JohnG@lt wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

it's just the same old doom and gloom nonsense people have been peddling since this recession started. It's as if noone ever recovered from a recession before. It's pathetic.
We had a well known economist predicting soup lines around the corner, unemployment @ 25%, and the stock market in the 5k's about a year ago. She hasn't been heard from since.
Who?
Her name is escaping me. Phil Hendrie used to talk about her (being a nut). I'm going to go peruse his twitter feed. This was about a year ago.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

CameronPoe wrote:

Ireland passed an austerity budget in December and despite all the claims of political infeasibilty we haven't heard a murmur out of the unions and support for Fianna Fáil actually rose four points. They cut government expenditure dramatically but left taxes largely untouched. It was the right thing to do. It presented a strong and stable image to international debt markets and has saved our fucking asses. I don't think Europe is in trouble - it's just the same old doom and gloom nonsense people have been peddling since this recession started. It's as if noone ever recovered from a recession before. It's pathetic.
Well our genius lawmakers are convinced you have to spend yourself out of recession. And soon our debt is going to exceed GDP.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7096|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Ireland passed an austerity budget in December and despite all the claims of political infeasibilty we haven't heard a murmur out of the unions and support for Fianna Fáil actually rose four points. They cut government expenditure dramatically but left taxes largely untouched. It was the right thing to do. It presented a strong and stable image to international debt markets and has saved our fucking asses. I don't think Europe is in trouble - it's just the same old doom and gloom nonsense people have been peddling since this recession started. It's as if noone ever recovered from a recession before. It's pathetic.
Well our genius lawmakers are convinced you have to spend yourself out of recession. And soon our debt is going to exceed GDP.
It's about 60% now I believe ...

What is it with the topic title, Europe in a global depression? ... how can one continent be in a global depression?

Anyways the problems is far from over ... Spain has a 50% unemployment rate for those younger than 30, Greece is struggling near the limit of what Iceland has been through and unemployment in Italy is on the rise ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

Varegg wrote:

FEOS wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Ireland passed an austerity budget in December and despite all the claims of political infeasibilty we haven't heard a murmur out of the unions and support for Fianna Fáil actually rose four points. They cut government expenditure dramatically but left taxes largely untouched. It was the right thing to do. It presented a strong and stable image to international debt markets and has saved our fucking asses. I don't think Europe is in trouble - it's just the same old doom and gloom nonsense people have been peddling since this recession started. It's as if noone ever recovered from a recession before. It's pathetic.
Well our genius lawmakers are convinced you have to spend yourself out of recession. And soon our debt is going to exceed GDP.
It's about 60% now I believe ...

What is it with the topic title, Europe in a global depression? ... how can one continent be in a global depression?

Anyways the problems is far from over ... Spain has a 50% unemployment rate for those younger than 30, Greece is struggling near the limit of what Iceland has been through and unemployment in Italy is on the rise ...
Looking at Obama's budget projections, it will exceed GDP in the next 10 years. We'll be in fine company then, won't we?

Wonder if we could take a lesson from Ireland...and not just the drinking?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7096|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:

Varegg wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Well our genius lawmakers are convinced you have to spend yourself out of recession. And soon our debt is going to exceed GDP.
It's about 60% now I believe ...

What is it with the topic title, Europe in a global depression? ... how can one continent be in a global depression?

Anyways the problems is far from over ... Spain has a 50% unemployment rate for those younger than 30, Greece is struggling near the limit of what Iceland has been through and unemployment in Italy is on the rise ...
Looking at Obama's budget projections, it will exceed GDP in the next 10 years. We'll be in fine company then, won't we?

Wonder if we could take a lesson from Ireland...and not just the drinking?
They drink so much they forget to spend money?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

Varegg wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Varegg wrote:


It's about 60% now I believe ...

What is it with the topic title, Europe in a global depression? ... how can one continent be in a global depression?

Anyways the problems is far from over ... Spain has a 50% unemployment rate for those younger than 30, Greece is struggling near the limit of what Iceland has been through and unemployment in Italy is on the rise ...
Looking at Obama's budget projections, it will exceed GDP in the next 10 years. We'll be in fine company then, won't we?

Wonder if we could take a lesson from Ireland...and not just the drinking?
They drink so much they forget to spend money?
Hard to spend money when you're face down in a puddle of vomit in the gutter.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100208 … 19d7c7fd31

STRATFOR has an interesting take on this. Basically, it's up to Germany.

STRATFOR wrote:

As the EU’s largest economy and main architect of the European Central Bank, Germany is where the proverbial buck stops. Germany has a choice to make.

The first option, letting the chips fall where they may, must be tempting to Berlin. After being treated as Europe’s slush fund for 60 years, the Germans must be itching simply to let Greece and others fail. Should the markets truly believe that Germany is not going to ride to the rescue, the spread on Greek debt would expand massively. Remember that despite all the problems in recent weeks, Greek debt currently trades at a spread that is only one-eighth the gap of what it was pre-Maastricht — meaning there is a lot of room for things to get worse. With Greece now facing a budget deficit of at least 9.1 percent in 2010 — and given Greek proclivity to fudge statistics the real figure is probably much worse — any sharp increase in debt servicing costs could push Athens over the brink.

From the perspective of German finances, letting Greece fail would be the financially prudent thing to do. The shock of a Greek default undoubtedly would motivate other European states to get their acts together, budget for steeper borrowing costs and ultimately take their futures into their own hands. But Greece would not be the only default. The rest of Club Med is not all that far behind Greece, and budget deficits have exploded across the European Union. Macroeconomic indicators for France and especially Belgium are in only marginally better shape than those of Spain and Italy.

At this point, one could very well say that by some measures the United States is not far behind the eurozone. The difference is the insatiable global appetite for the U.S. dollar, which despite all the conspiracy theories and conventional wisdom of recent years actually increased during the 2008-2009 global recession. Taken with the dollar’s status as the world’s reserve currency and the fact that the United States controls its own monetary policy, Washington has much more room to maneuver than Europe.

Berlin could at this point very well ask why it should care if Greece and Portugal go under. Greece accounts for just 2.6 percent of eurozone gross domestic product. Furthermore, the crisis is not of Berlin’s making. These states all have been coasting on German largesse for years, if not decades, and isn’t it high time that they were forced to sink or swim?

The problem with that logic is that this crisis also is about the future of Europe and Germany’s place in it. Germany knows that the geopolitical writing is on the wall: As powerful as it is, as an individual country (or even partnered with France), Germany does not approach the power of the United States or China and even that of Brazil or Russia further down the line. Berlin feels its relevance on the world stage slipping, something encapsulated by U.S. President Barack Obama’s recent refusal to meet for the traditional EU-U.S. summit. And it feels its economic weight burdened by the incoherence of the eurozone’s political unity and deepening demographic problems.

The only way for Germany to matter is if Europe as a whole matters. If Germany does the economically prudent (and emotionally satisfying) thing and lets Greece fail, it could force some of the rest of the eurozone to shape up and maybe even make the eurozone better off economically in the long run. But this would come at a cost: It would scuttle the euro as a global currency and the European Union as a global player.

Every state to date that has defaulted on its debt and eventually recovered has done so because it controlled its own monetary policy. These states could engage in various (often unorthodox) methods of stimulating their own recovery. Popular methods include, but are hardly limited to, currency devaluations in an attempt to boost exports and printing currency either to pay off debt or fund spending directly. But Greece and the others in the eurozone surrendered their monetary policy to the European Central Bank when they adopted the euro. Unless these states somehow can change decades of bad behavior in a day, the only way out of economic destitution would be for them to leave the eurozone. In essence, letting Greece fail risks hiving off EU states from the euro. Even if the euro — not to mention the EU — survived the shock and humiliation of monetary partition, the concept of a powerful Europe with a political center would vanish. This is especially so given that the strength of the European Union thus far has been measured by the successes of its rehabilitations — most notably of Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain in the 1980s — where economic-basket case dictatorships and pseudo-democracies transitioned into modern economies.

And this leaves option two: Berlin bails out Athens.

There is no doubt Germany could afford such a bailout, as the Greek economy is only one-tenth of the size of the Germany’s. But the days of no-strings-attached financial assistance from Germany are over. If Germany is going to do this, there will no longer be anything “implied” or “assumed” about German control of the European Central Bank and the eurozone. The control will become reality, and that control will have consequences. For all intents and purposes, Germany will run the fiscal policies of peripheral member states that have proved they are not up to the task of doing so on their own. To accept anything less intrusive would end with Germany becoming responsible for bailing out everyone. After all, who wouldn’t want a condition-free bailout paid for by Germany? And since a euro-wide bailout is beyond Germany’s means, this scenario would end with Germany leading the EU hat-in-hand to the International Monetary Fund for an American/Chinese-funded assistance package. It is possible that the Germans could be gentle and risk such abject humiliation, but it is not likely.

Taking a firmer tack would allow Germany to achieve via the pocketbook what it couldn’t achieve by the sword. But this policy has its own costs. The eurozone as a whole needs to borrow around 2.2 trillion euros in 2010, with Greece needing 53 billion euros simply to make it through the year. Not far behind Greece is Italy, which needs 393 billion euros, Belgium with needs of 89 billion euros and France with needs of yet another 454 billion euros. As such, the premium on Germany is to act — if it is going to act — fast. It needs to get Greece and most likely Portugal wrapped up before crisis of confidence spreads to the really serious countries, where even mighty German’s resources would be overwhelmed.

That is the cost of making Europe “work.” It is also the cost to Germany of leadership that doesn’t come at the end of a gun. So if Germany wants its leadership to mean something outside of Western Europe, it will be forced to pay for that leadership — deeply, repeatedly and very, very soon. But unlike in years past, this time Berlin will want to hold the reins.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6907|London, England
Let Greece fail, let the Greeks have their revolution. I hear there's alot more (than usual) corruptness in Greece and all that shit, no surprise. At least one country needs to get rid of the cancer that is killing instead of bailing it out.
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6786|so randum

FEOS wrote:

Varegg wrote:

FEOS wrote:


Looking at Obama's budget projections, it will exceed GDP in the next 10 years. We'll be in fine company then, won't we?

Wonder if we could take a lesson from Ireland...and not just the drinking?
They drink so much they forget to spend money?
Hard to spend money when you're face down in a puddle of vomit in the gutter.
we are p.awesome at getting shitfaced
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Ticia
Member
+73|5621

Mekstizzle wrote:

Let Greece fail, let the Greeks have their revolution. I hear there's alot more (than usual) corruptness in Greece and all that shit, no surprise. At least one country needs to get rid of the cancer that is killing instead of bailing it out.
Where would the UK youth be partying then?


Feos link is on the mark,Germany will help but this time they will want something more substantial in return.

With all the new countries in the EU the old problematic ones like Greece and Portugal are screwed,they don't hold any power but are not willing to be molded like the new kids. And with big old Spain in so much trouble it really seems the EU is doomed.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5644|London, England

Ticia wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Let Greece fail, let the Greeks have their revolution. I hear there's alot more (than usual) corruptness in Greece and all that shit, no surprise. At least one country needs to get rid of the cancer that is killing instead of bailing it out.
Where would the UK youth be partying then?


Feos link is on the mark,Germany will help but this time they will want something more substantial in return.

With all the new countries in the EU the old problematic ones like Greece and Portugal are screwed,they don't hold any power but are not willing to be molded like the new kids. And with big old Spain in so much trouble it really seems the EU is doomed.
Why is Portugal going under?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Ticia
Member
+73|5621

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Let Greece fail, let the Greeks have their revolution. I hear there's alot more (than usual) corruptness in Greece and all that shit, no surprise. At least one country needs to get rid of the cancer that is killing instead of bailing it out.
Where would the UK youth be partying then?


Feos link is on the mark,Germany will help but this time they will want something more substantial in return.

With all the new countries in the EU the old problematic ones like Greece and Portugal are screwed,they don't hold any power but are not willing to be molded like the new kids. And with big old Spain in so much trouble it really seems the EU is doomed.
Why is Portugal going under?
We're becoming third world.
We have socialists in power with policies that only help the very rich get richer.
Immigration is out of control 'cause all of the sudden portuguese are too eastern european to do manual job.
Is not only the country that is in debt, almost every single person is. Having the house and the car and going on vacation every year has a price and the banks are there to help you out.
But you know what people really are worrying about? How well we'll do in the World Cup? Goooooooo Portugal!
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5644|London, England

Ticia wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ticia wrote:


Where would the UK youth be partying then?


Feos link is on the mark,Germany will help but this time they will want something more substantial in return.

With all the new countries in the EU the old problematic ones like Greece and Portugal are screwed,they don't hold any power but are not willing to be molded like the new kids. And with big old Spain in so much trouble it really seems the EU is doomed.
Why is Portugal going under?
We're becoming third world.
We have socialists in power with policies that only help the very rich get richer.
Immigration is out of control 'cause all of the sudden portuguese are too eastern european to do manual job.
Is not only the country that is in debt, almost every single person is. Having the house and the car and going on vacation every year has a price and the banks are there to help you out.
But you know what people really are worrying about? How well we'll do in the World Cup? Goooooooo Portugal!
Sounds remarkably like America except for the soccer part. We just had our Super Bowl for football on Sunday
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6697|'Murka

Ticia wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Ticia wrote:


Where would the UK youth be partying then?


Feos link is on the mark,Germany will help but this time they will want something more substantial in return.

With all the new countries in the EU the old problematic ones like Greece and Portugal are screwed,they don't hold any power but are not willing to be molded like the new kids. And with big old Spain in so much trouble it really seems the EU is doomed.
Why is Portugal going under?
We're becoming third world.
We have socialists in power with policies that only help the very rich get richer.
Immigration is out of control 'cause all of the sudden portuguese are too eastern european to do manual job.
Is not only the country that is in debt, almost every single person is. Having the house and the car and going on vacation every year has a price and the banks are there to help you out.
But you know what people really are worrying about? How well we'll do in the World Cup? Goooooooo Portugal!
But I thought socialism was the panacea that ensured the lower classes got more and those evil rich people got less?

It doesn't work that way in reality?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7002

FEOS wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Ireland passed an austerity budget in December and despite all the claims of political infeasibilty we haven't heard a murmur out of the unions and support for Fianna Fáil actually rose four points. They cut government expenditure dramatically but left taxes largely untouched. It was the right thing to do. It presented a strong and stable image to international debt markets and has saved our fucking asses. I don't think Europe is in trouble - it's just the same old doom and gloom nonsense people have been peddling since this recession started. It's as if noone ever recovered from a recession before. It's pathetic.
Well our genius lawmakers are convinced you have to spend yourself out of recession. And soon our debt is going to exceed GDP.
Keynesian economics lel. I'm just thinking they're asking people to spend their own money because of big business lel. Taiwan did an alright job with a 3600NT tax cut to every citizen, but it is a different bank note that only allows business' to cash in, so people will have to spend it.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6834|San Diego, CA, USA
Collapse of the euro is 'inevitable'

https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2204/article1250433084428f80.jpg

Dail Mail wrote:

The European single currency is facing an 'inevitable break-up' a leading French bank claimed yesterday.

Strategists at Paris-based Société Générale said that any bailout of the stricken Greek economy would only provide 'sticking plasters' to cover the deep- seated flaws in the eurozone bloc.

The stark warning came as the euro slipped further on the currency markets and dire growth figures raised the prospect of a 'double-dip' recession in the embattled zone.
Now I see why Obama is running us with trillion dollar deficits!

Last edited by Harmor (2010-02-13 21:39:34)

FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6786|so randum

Harmor wrote:

Collapse of the euro is 'inevitable'

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2204 … 428f80.jpg

Dail Mail wrote:

The European single currency is facing an 'inevitable break-up' a leading French bank claimed yesterday.

Strategists at Paris-based Société Générale said that any bailout of the stricken Greek economy would only provide 'sticking plasters' to cover the deep- seated flaws in the eurozone bloc.

The stark warning came as the euro slipped further on the currency markets and dire growth figures raised the prospect of a 'double-dip' recession in the embattled zone.
Now I see why Obama is running us with trillion dollar deficits!
using the daily mail as a source is akin to saying the apple core in my bin holds the answer to climate change.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6815|Global Command

FatherTed wrote:

Harmor wrote:

Collapse of the euro is 'inevitable'

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2204 … 428f80.jpg

Dail Mail wrote:

The European single currency is facing an 'inevitable break-up' a leading French bank claimed yesterday.

Strategists at Paris-based Société Générale said that any bailout of the stricken Greek economy would only provide 'sticking plasters' to cover the deep- seated flaws in the eurozone bloc.

The stark warning came as the euro slipped further on the currency markets and dire growth figures raised the prospect of a 'double-dip' recession in the embattled zone.
Now I see why Obama is running us with trillion dollar deficits!
using the daily mail as a source is akin to saying the apple core in my bin holds the answer to climate change.
Yeah, okay.

So did the French banker elite say that or didn't he?

In a note to investors, SocGen strategist Albert Edwards said: 'My own view is that there is little "help" that can be offered by the other eurozone nations other than temporary, confidence-giving "sticking plasters" before the ultimate denouement: the break-up of the eurozone.'

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