kkolodsick
Member
+14|6827

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

I find it funny how evolutionists can stand on science today but call science from "those" days observation.
You can't have it both ways. 

I see a clock and look at the inside and I just know that there is a clock maker.   Why is it so hard to believe, or at least entertain the though that there is a maker of the earth? 

Creation is real my friends sorry to burst your bubble.
And what would you call the people before christ who believed in multiple gods?  Are they wrong?  If so, how do you know and why?  If not, then you are admitting there may be multiple gods.  I believe the concept of God was a result of early civilizations trying to explain why things are the way they are.  Just like science is trying to explain why things are the way they are.  Back then, people thought the sun was a manifestation of a person.  Back then, people thought the planets and sun rotated around the earth.  Obviously as time progresses, we make observational and scientific progress.  In time, we may find that the idea of a God is as outdated as the idea that the earth was flat.
The thought they they believed in mutiple gods is already an affirmation that they too concluded that as they looked out into the world, they knew there needed to be a maker.  Earliest recorded history records a creation story.  The scriptures and the Koran record a creation event.  There are thousands of scientist today that believe that these pre-Christ guys were right.   

The idea that something as complex as man could come from a one celled organism that just happned to come to life by mistake (big bang) is ludicrous, not scientific.  It is fantasy, not science.
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6938
I think as time goes on we will see more of how our world could not have happened by chance. You should read the book " The Privileged Planet ". Its not about any religion, its just about how our planet is perfect for life AND for scientific discovery.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,977|6792|949

kkolodsick wrote:

The thought they they believed in mutiple gods is already an affirmation that they too concluded that as they looked out into the world, they knew there needed to be a maker.  Earliest recorded history records a creation story.  The scriptures and the Koran record a creation event.  There are thousands of scientist today that believe that these pre-Christ guys were right.   

The idea that something as complex as man could come from a one celled organism that just happned to come to life by mistake (big bang) is ludicrous, not scientific.  It is fantasy, not science.
So you're arguing that because these early civilizations had creation stories, there must be a creator?  It seems to me that people posting on this thread are coming from three sides: those who believe in God and proclaim it as the truth; those who believe in evolution and proclaim it as truth; and those who do not believe in God, but realize that there is no proof one way or the other.  The first two are close-minded thoughts.  Prove to me God exists and I will believe.  I can't prove 100% evolution is the way we were created.  I CAN show examples of evolution on this planet.  It is ignorant to say that God exists, and leave it at that.  If you believe in God, fine, whatever gets you through the day.  But the bottom line is that you cannot prove God exists, and quoting scripture is not proof.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2006-04-20 14:25:06)

kkolodsick
Member
+14|6827

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

The thought they they believed in mutiple gods is already an affirmation that they too concluded that as they looked out into the world, they knew there needed to be a maker.  Earliest recorded history records a creation story.  The scriptures and the Koran record a creation event.  There are thousands of scientist today that believe that these pre-Christ guys were right.   

The idea that something as complex as man could come from a one celled organism that just happned to come to life by mistake (big bang) is ludicrous, not scientific.  It is fantasy, not science.
So you're arguing that because these early civilizations had creation stories, there must be a creator?  It seems to me that people posting on this thread are coming from three sides: those who believe in God and proclaim it as the truth; those who believe in evolution and proclaim it as truth; and those who do not believe in God, but realize that there is no proof one way or the other.  The first two are close-minded thoughts.  Prove to me God exists and I will believe.  I can't prove 100% evolution is the way we were created.  I CAN show examples of evolution on this planet.  It is ignorant to say that God exists, and leave it at that.  If you believe in God, fine, whatever gets you through the day.  But the bottom line is that you cannot prove God exists, and quoting scripture is not proof.
You're right there is no proof of either God (Creation) or evolution.  In my mind there is a preponderance (sp) of evidence to Creation therefore my faith.  I have only quoted scripture once in these threads to back up my stance that God is jealous, else it has been my own words. 

Science can and has been proven wrong throughout the years but no one ever can prove the Bible to be wrong.  You may disagree as to its origins but...

I don't consider it closed minded if you have done the proper homework and feel strongly either way.  I respect someone's opinion to believe in evolution or neither for that matter. 

To you bing bang people, go back to the 60's during the space race.  Scientists were calculating how much lunar dust would be on the moon while designing the lunar module (there will be and is a semi-fixed amount of dust deposited every year since "the beginning") and they were calculating something like several feet of dust.  Then they involved the Creation Research Society (I believe that is the name) who said it would be something like 4".  Well we all remember the first steps and how much dust was there?



Then my question to you is how did the universe come to be?
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,977|6792|949

kkolodsick wrote:

Then my question to you is how did the universe come to be?
I.....don't....know.  I guess that is the best I can come up with.  I can make guesses and say big bang, but the truth is I do not understand enough about astrophysics to be able to comprehend the idea of the big bang theory in all its glory.  I would like to know how the universe came about, but I am not going to lose sleep if I can't explain it.  I don't feel the need to explain it to myself; I am content in not knowing.  I would be lying if I said I don't think about it, but I tend to think about ideas and actions on this earth so much that I just can't be bothered to come up with a comprehensive idea about the origins of the universe.

And that last bold line in my previous comment was not directly meant to you or anyone, just everyone here in this thread.
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6938
Hebrews 11:3 "By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at Gods command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen."
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6814

kkolodsick wrote:

Then my question to you is how did the universe come to be?
My opinion:  I reckon the fact the nothingness creates a vacuum means you have an infinity of energy pulling in on itself... gradually eddys and currents build and eventually concentrations of energy eventually became matter (the old E=MC^2).   Basically it came simply from the existance and tension of nothingness itself.  It was born out of chaos.

I don't question anyone else's beliefs, and I often admire people for their convictions; however I could never buy into religion myself as I could never get an answer to another fundamental question:  My question is if someone created this infinity of space: where did they come from, and who created them?
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6861

kkolodsick wrote:

I find it funny how evolutionists can stand on science today but call science from "those" days observation.
You can't have it both ways. 

I see a clock and look at the inside and I just know that there is a clock maker.
As several people have pointed out, simple observation is not science. Simply because something is called science, in this case 'the Earth is flat', does not mean that that conclusion was reached using the scientific method. If we erased all of our scientific advancement to this day, and any of us walked outside, we would probably reach the same conclusion because thats all we could observe. However, we know now that the Earth is not in fact flat, we've given it very precise measurements, people have been into space and seen that it is, in fact, round. Science has given us very plausible reasons as to why the Earth (and every large celestial body) should be spherical and not, say, square shaped. Science today is much more advanced than it was 500 years ago, and the scrutiny applied to new ideas is much more intense. In short, 'the Earth is flat' is about as scientific as your watchmaker analogy (which I suppose was more of a philosophical comment anyway).

kkolodsick wrote:

Why is it so hard to believe, or at least entertain the though that there is a maker of the earth? 

Creation is real my friends sorry to burst your bubble.
I entertain the thought, but as yet I have seen no compelling evidence to support the existence of any kind of higher being. In fact, most of the evidence I've seen in my admittedly short life has shown that if anything, there is no guiding force of any kind. How about you. Why is it so hard to believe, or at least entertain the thought that evolution brought us here? You seem quite sure that it didn't, and that the entire universe was created 6000 years ago by an omnipotent but strangely absent higher being, who also caused a book to be written commanding worship of him/it. Have you seen any evidence for this line of events? Would you care to share it with us? I do not mean to insult your faith in any way, but one cannot bring faith to a scientific argument if one wishes to remain impartial.

kkolodsick wrote:

The thought they they believed in mutiple gods is already an affirmation that they too concluded that as they looked out into the world, they knew there needed to be a maker.  Earliest recorded history records a creation story.  The scriptures and the Koran record a creation event.  There are thousands of scientist today that believe that these pre-Christ guys were right.
I think you are confusing 'recorded history' with myth and story. Lets think of this logically, recorded history means someone was around to record it. When the Earth was supposedly created, there were no people around. Ergo, it cannot be recorded history. If we then assume that God told someone to write this stuff down, we are leaving the world of science, as we would be making assumptions that cannot be tested in any real way. The general consensus today is that many of these creation stories are simply methods of explaining a world that could not be explained in any other way. This, to me at least, is much more plausible (when you consider simple human sociology and psychology) than the alternative.

kkolodsick wrote:

The idea that something as complex as man could come from a one celled organism that just happned to come to life by mistake (big bang) is ludicrous, not scientific.  It is fantasy, not science.
Have you read the science behind these events? Did you understand it? I have tried to read some of the technical explanations behind the big bang theory, and after 2 minutes my eyes crossed and I passed out. It is a mistake to assume that just because we, with the current state of our science cannot prove with all certainty what happened billions of years in the past that those events are impossible. I would also point out that it is meaningless to invoke science in calling the theory of evolution and the Big Bang 'ludicrous' and 'fantasy', and then turn around and tell us that creationism is what really happened, with no more proof than the bible.

kkolodsick wrote:

You're right there is no proof of either God (Creation) or evolution.  In my mind there is a preponderance (sp) of evidence to Creation therefore my faith.  I have only quoted scripture once in these threads to back up my stance that God is jealous, else it has been my own words. 

Science can and has been proven wrong throughout the years but no one ever can prove the Bible to be wrong.  You may disagree as to its origins but...
I have not seen any credible evidence supporting the creation myth. In my arguments with Wannabe_tank_whore I have had cause to read many creation science websites, and they all seem to spend most of their time trying to discredit the vast majority of science that goes against creation. Radiometric dating, geology, species dynamics, evolutionary theory, evidence from almost every aspect of modern science all point to creationism being little more than a story. When they do present evidence to support Biblical events, it tends to be the same kind of evidence that they spend the rest of their time discrediting (I.E carbon dating shows this object to be x amount of years old, which is how old the bible says it should be. But when carbon dating is used to show an object is older than ~6000 years, all of a sudden carbon dating is unreliable. I'm using carbon dating as an example, and a poor one at that in this context, but you get my point).

However, you are right in that the Bible cannot be disproven. This is because the Bible describes events that are supernatural in nature, and are therefore untestable in any way we currently understand. This is the strength of science and the weakness of religion in my eyes, if a scientific theory is incorrect or flawed it will eventually be discovered and corrected through testing and research, history has shown us as much and will almost certainly continue to do so. With religion any errors or flaws are simply brushed off with supernatural or untestable explanations, and those flaws are perpetuated.
Nehby
Member
+1|6837
That's just it, no ones knows. Who/What created matter, what made it? Science and religion have ideas about what caused it all, but neither can prove it. This thread is meaningless because neither side has any evidence to conclusivly prove thier own point. It's up to the reader to decide which side it right.
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6938
http://www.illustramedia.com/movies/TPP … w_256k.mov  Is this movie false and bias even though they are scientists and physicists and arent focusing on any specific religion?
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6804
still waiting on that complex bible jamdude....or you just cant think of any examples
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6835|Canberra, AUS

JaMDuDe wrote:

Daysniper wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

Give me one example. Not just a religous book, a book like the bible.
The bible is a religious book.
You need better reading comprehension. I meant a book as complex as the bible. Not just a religous book like the koran which was written by one guy over 23 years.
You mean written by MANY guys LITSENING to one guy over 23 years.

There's a big difference.

Why is it so hard to believe, or at least entertain the though that there is a maker of the earth? 

Creation is real my friends sorry to burst your bubble.
You mean we should just drop everything and take your word from it?

I hope (probably wrongly) that this is not a typical creationist response:

'Creation happened because I said so. I say so because the bible says so.'

Like a lot of rational, reasoning people are going to believe that.

Nehby wrote:

That's just it, no ones knows. Who/What created matter, what made it? Science and religion have ideas about what caused it all, but neither can prove it. This thread is meaningless because neither side has any evidence to conclusivly prove thier own point. It's up to the reader to decide which side it right.
You are the 4th person that I've sent to this page.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do some RESEARCH before making 'claims'.

JaMDuDe wrote:

http://www.illustramedia.com/movies/TPP_preview_256k.mov  Is this movie false and bias even though they are scientists and physicists and arent focusing on any specific religion?
Um.... It's not like I don't know about these things (I have 20 pages in a BIG book - in all dimensions - devoted to the topic)... it's just you need to consider a few things afterward.

1. IF they didn't turn out 'this way', it would be likely that life would take a completely different form OR we wouldn't be able to marvel at it. It's like, we're here becuase.... we're here. It's incredibly counter-intuitive, I know. Took me a while to get around it.

2. The universe is a BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG place. Even with the tightest and most unlikely estimates, there could be millions of millions of life-bearing planets in OUR GALAXY. There would be about 200 light years between each 'civilization'. A distance which is just... way out of our reach. They're watching convicts shoot Aborigines and any message would congratulate us on our discovery of America.

Last edited by Spark (2006-04-20 19:08:03)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6835|Canberra, AUS

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

still waiting on that complex bible jamdude....or you just cant think of any examples
Errr.... I don't think he can think of any examples.

That might be why he asked in the first place.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6938
I didnt say its wicked complex, i said there arent books as complex as it. Like books written with no technology, over hundreds of years with prophets that said things that would come true hundreds of years later.
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6861

JaMDuDe wrote:

http://www.illustramedia.com/movies/TPP_preview_256k.mov  Is this movie false and bias even though they are scientists and physicists and arent focusing on any specific religion?
And your point is? As the video says, those are all estimations. We don't know what the chances are that any of those conditions will be met, or even if all of those conditions must be met in the first place. We only have the 9 planets in our solar system to look at when comparing the viability of life, and only ourselves and the species we know of to look at when deciding what the criteria for a viable planet are. For all we know there are many planets with life in this galaxy. You cant simply look at a video like that and say "well the chances of us being here are small, so God must have done it. It even says so in the Bible!" Well, maybe YOU can, but I'm going to hold out for some more compelling proof.

JaMDuDe wrote:

I didnt say its wicked complex, i said there arent books as complex as it. Like books written with no technology, over hundreds of years with prophets that said things that would come true hundreds of years later.
Did you read all the posts on this page? There is no proof that the bible was never edited after the fact. If moses had written some specific prophecy down centuries before jesus' birth, and then that document had been sealed somewhere untouchable until it was found in the modern day, I would be more convinced. As it stands, the Bible is a document that has been written and rewritten and translated back and forth for two millennia, its not exactly the original document anymore.
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6938
1/1,000,000,000,000 out of 100 billion are good enough chances for me. And since there is a thing like the bible with BILLIONS of followers, who you say arent worshiping anything. Im not gona take those chances at goin to hell.

Thats what the dead sea scrolls were, they confirmed the truth of the bible and that it didnt get distorted over the years.

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-04-20 19:05:19)

Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6861

JaMDuDe wrote:

1/1,000,000,000,000 out of 100 billion are good enough chances for me. And since there is a thing like the bible with BILLIONS of followers, who you say arent worshiping anything. Im not gona take those chances at goin to hell.
And how many galaxies are there in the universe? Nasa estimates as many as 125 billion. Again, all estimation, just like the estimations given on that video. 125,000,000,000 x 100,000,000,000 = alot more than the estimated chances of one suitable planet. And again, for the last time, those are just estimations, not absolute proof that a viable life sustaining planet is that rare. If we ever get around to charting the galaxy and there is absolutely no life besides us, that will be rock hard proof. Until then, its all speculation and educated guessing.

And your faith in God is motivated by fear of going to hell? That doesn't sound like a very good reason to me. Are mentally handicapped people who cannot comprehend the concept of God going to hell too? How about infants who die. God doesn't seem like a very nice guy the way you keep describing Him.

JaMDuDe wrote:

Thats what the dead sea scrolls were, they confirmed the truth of the bible and that it didnt get distorted over the years.
So the dead sea scrolls predict the coming of Jesus? Before he was born? And this is a provable fact? From what I've read the dead sea scrolls are a great archaeological resource, but don't exactly prove the Christian faith to God's only truth.
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6938
Fear of hell isnt why im a Christian, it just doesnt make sense to take that much of a chance of goin to hell. They gave a conservative number to those estimates and those were the chances. All children and people who cant reason go to heaven. I do believe that the dead sea scrolls had all the old testament books except esther and nehemiah, so that includes the prophecies.
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6861
I've done some research and found no reference to the dead sea scrolls predicting the birth of jesus specifically. Some of the scrolls are supposed to predict the coming of a savior, but are not very specific and  are open to interpretation. It seems to me if God actually told the people to write the content of the scrolls, he would have at least bothered to give them some details. Anyway, this is really not my area of expertise and I didn't spend that much time on it. Regardless, I still maintain that the scrolls do not prove anything in the Bible is true, and by this I am referring to supernatural events, not historical ones. If such proof was evident, you can be sure that the relevant church organizations would be touting them around for all to see.

As for the babies automatically going to heaven, I found this article interesting. Admittedly you probably understand much more about the bible than I do, but from what I do understand you have to consciously repent ones sins to get into heaven, and one is born with original sin. Therefore babies, who cannot conceive of or repent their sins, must automatically go to hell when they die.
http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctri … en_web.htm
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6938
If someone cannot reason with what they are doing they dont get punished for it.

God didnt tell them to write the scrolls, the people were about to get massacred so they put the writings in a cave. And if they had the old testament(which they did) they had the prophecies of the old testament. The dead sea scrolls were just the writings of the bible, not prophecies themselves although the bible had the prophecies.
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6861

JaMDuDe wrote:

If someone cannot reason with what they are doing they dont get punished for it.
Its not the reasoning I'm quibbling with, its the scripture. What the bible appears to say is that you have to repent your sins before you are let into heaven, whether you understand them or not. Besides which, one does not have to 'do' anything at all in order to go to hell, because we are all born with original sin (again, not my area of expertise, this is just my understanding).

JaMDuDe wrote:

God didnt tell them to write the scrolls, the people were about to get massacred so they put the writings in a cave. And if they had the old testament(which they did) they had the prophecies of the old testament. The dead sea scrolls were just the writings of the bible, not prophecies themselves although the bible had the prophecies.
I understand this, but from what I read the dead sea scrolls are also some the oldest examples of the bible, and not all of the dead sea scrolls were related to the bible. It seems to be clear that the text did not change much in the period between the writing of the oldest scrolls and the earliest known writings of the bible itself, but that does not mean that they actually prophesied Jesus' birth before he was born (which was your contention). And if God did not pass the information regarding Jesus' (or rather, some kind of prophecy regarding a birth), who did? Did the writers just get lucky, or were they just telling stories as I originally implied? A vague prophecy coming true does not mean anything in and of itself, after all Nostradamus' work was full of vague prophecy and he is hardly considered a holy prophet.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6804
could you please explain the difference between complex and 'wicked' complex
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6827
Why is it so hard to believe, or at least entertain the though that there is a maker of the earth? 

Creation is real my friends sorry to burst your bubble.
You mean we should just drop everything and take your word from it?

I hope (probably wrongly) that this is not a typical creationist response:

'Creation happened because I said so. I say so because the bible says so.'

Like a lot of rational, reasoning people are going to believe that.

Come on Spark, you know that's now what I meant.

Everyone keeps talking about science vs. observation but at that time it was the cutting edge scientists so who is to say that cutting edge scientists are correct today? 
I have still seen no concrete evidence of evolution.  Please enlighten me.  Is this survival of the fittest or evolution that you guys speak of?
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6827

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

could you please explain the difference between complex and 'wicked' complex
Ahh one is wicked harder than the other...
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6938

Skruples wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

If someone cannot reason with what they are doing they dont get punished for it.
Its not the reasoning I'm quibbling with, its the scripture. What the bible appears to say is that you have to repent your sins before you are let into heaven, whether you understand them or not. Besides which, one does not have to 'do' anything at all in order to go to hell, because we are all born with original sin (again, not my area of expertise, this is just my understanding).

JaMDuDe wrote:

God didnt tell them to write the scrolls, the people were about to get massacred so they put the writings in a cave. And if they had the old testament(which they did) they had the prophecies of the old testament. The dead sea scrolls were just the writings of the bible, not prophecies themselves although the bible had the prophecies.
I understand this, but from what I read the dead sea scrolls are also some the oldest examples of the bible, and not all of the dead sea scrolls were related to the bible. It seems to be clear that the text did not change much in the period between the writing of the oldest scrolls and the earliest known writings of the bible itself, but that does not mean that they actually prophesied Jesus' birth before he was born (which was your contention). And if God did not pass the information regarding Jesus' (or rather, some kind of prophecy regarding a birth), who did? Did the writers just get lucky, or were they just telling stories as I originally implied? A vague prophecy coming true does not mean anything in and of itself, after all Nostradamus' work was full of vague prophecy and he is hardly considered a holy prophet.
You only need to repent your sins if you know and understood what you did. Jesus never sinned so sin is not giving to you at birth.
http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/ … ecies.html

Its a fact that they did prophecy Jesus' birth. The dead sea scrolls were copies of the bible, it was not written directly by the prophets.

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-04-21 07:20:17)

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