BF2S Forums N.J. bill would grant in-state tuition for illegal immigrants

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

As was said previously, unless we're planning on deporting millions of people any law enacted will be viewed as nothing more than a scofflaw (the same as our current immigration policies are). Face it, the children of illegals, the ones that are here legally, and those that have become naturalized over time are a huge voting bloc and only growing bigger. Do you really think a politician will put prudence before his own election concerns? Good luck with that.

Oh, I'm not suggesting we will go the deportation route.  Quite the contrary, actually.  I totally agree that amnesty and these in-state for illegals policies will likely become more common.

What I was saying is that it is possible to do the deportation.  It can be done, and in the long run, it would be the best move.  Securing our borders is a good idea, but the problem is that the upfront costs are so high and the political collateral is so heavy that yes, no politician would bother supporting it.  That doesn't mean it's impossible to implement, however.  It also doesn't mean that it wouldn't work.

In all likelihood, this issue will become a moot point in about 20 to 30 years, when the underclass is so large that it will be difficult to call ourselves First World anymore.

Sorry, but lol at underclass. You need to lay off the Marx for a bit

Turquoise wrote:

John, look at the trends over the last 2 decades.  The fastest growing segment of our population is the lower class.  You can't really dispute that.

I can easily dispute the reasons for it, and the ways that the numbers are calculated.

You can throw all the money in the world at them and they'll just spend it until they are poor again and ask for more. It's a cultural thing at the bottom, nothing more. When you teach them that they can live relatively comfortably just sitting on their ass, why work? When you have a system where their friends and relatives are the ones approving or disapproving them for government benefits it doesn't quite work now does it? You want to see the people that work in SS and Welfare offices? Visit your local DMV, they're the same type of people. They don't give a fuck about the system, just what they can game out of it.

Hell, my friend was doing construction work in a welfare office and he overheard a pair of middle class college educated kids teaching each other how to game the system and acquire benefits so they could sit on their couch and play video games all day.

You want to fix the system and get rid of the underclass? Remove all those nice safety nets and let them starve. Starving and desperate people will do whatever they can to make sure they never end up in that situation again. Look at the Depression as an example. The group of people that came out of it are known as the Greatest Generation and propelled the US to it's economic peak because they knew they had to work hard so they wouldn't starve.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

John, look at the trends over the last 2 decades.  The fastest growing segment of our population is the lower class.  You can't really dispute that.

I can easily dispute the reasons for it, and the ways that the numbers are calculated.
You can throw all the money in the world at them and they'll just spend it until they are poor again and ask for more. It's a cultural thing at the bottom, nothing more. When you teach them that they can live relatively comfortably just sitting on their ass, why work? When you have a system where their friends and relatives are the ones approving or disapproving them for government benefits it doesn't quite work now does it? You want to see the people that work in SS and Welfare offices? Visit your local DMV, they're the same type of people. They don't give a fuck about the system, just what they can game out of it.

Hell, my friend was doing construction work in a welfare office and he overheard a pair of middle class college educated kids teaching each other how to game the system and acquire benefits so they could sit on their couch and play video games all day.

A lot of the growth of the lower class is simply from immigration.  These are mostly people coming from poorer countries who do actually work hard to try to rise economically.  Many illegals are this way as well.  I may be conservative regarding illegal immigration, but even I'll admit that the work ethic of many illegals is beyond that of many of our "natives", so to speak.

The problem is that if you don't control the growth of this class, your infrastructures suffer.

JohnG@lt wrote:

You want to fix the system and get rid of the underclass? Remove all those nice safety nets and let them starve. Starving and desperate people will do whatever they can to make sure they never end up in that situation again. Look at the Depression as an example. The group of people that came out of it are known as the Greatest Generation and propelled the US to it's economic peak because they knew they had to work hard so they wouldn't starve.

And that same generation would have mostly died had it not been for the New Deal.

John, the fastest way you'll end up losing safety nets is to let immigration get out of hand.  So honestly, you may get your wish soon.  I don't think you'll like what you see though.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Besides, I know your real issue is that the competition that illegal immigration brings is that it lowers wages. My argument for that? The illegals grew up in nations without public school systems. People in this country did. Why are people in our country competing for the same menial jobs as illegal day laborers? It's not that our education system sucks, it doesn't. It's that the people growing up poor in this country, the ones that need education the most to 'get out' don't value it. Look at graduation rates in the ghetto compared to a suburban school system. It has nothing to do with opportunity and everything to do with their dumbass parents not teaching them that education was more important than learning how to scam a welfare check. It's the stupid leading the stupid down there.

Actually, our pre-collegiate education systems do tend to suck compared to most of the rest of the First World.  For example, the level of math that most American kids learn in their last year of high school is the same as what Japanese typically learn in 8th grade or before.

Also, because of wealth disparity and disparity of funding by district, inner city schools tend to have the worst instruction compared to many suburban schools.

It's not just a matter of laziness.

Also, we don't push technical education to the level that countries like Germany do.  If we did, we'd have a more balanced labor force.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Besides, I know your real issue is that the competition that illegal immigration brings is that it lowers wages. My argument for that? The illegals grew up in nations without public school systems. People in this country did. Why are people in our country competing for the same menial jobs as illegal day laborers? It's not that our education system sucks, it doesn't. It's that the people growing up poor in this country, the ones that need education the most to 'get out' don't value it. Look at graduation rates in the ghetto compared to a suburban school system. It has nothing to do with opportunity and everything to do with their dumbass parents not teaching them that education was more important than learning how to scam a welfare check. It's the stupid leading the stupid down there.

Actually, our pre-collegiate education systems do tend to suck compared to most of the rest of the First World.  For example, the level of math that most American kids learn in their last year of high school is the same as what Japanese typically learn in 8th grade or before.

Also, because of wealth disparity and disparity of funding by district, inner city schools tend to have the worst instruction compared to many suburban schools.

It's not just a matter of laziness.

Also, we don't push technical education to the level that countries like Germany do.  If we did, we'd have a more balanced labor force.

New York City schools are doing quite well actually. Even the ones in not so nice areas. Charter schools have helped, but they've had specialized schools here for a long time as well as 'honors schools'.

Graduation rates are up as well as test scores under Mayor Bloomberg. All it took was making teachers accountable and destroying the teachers union dominated Board of Education. Funny that.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes, and this is why I do not worry about the offspring of illegal immigrants. A solid work ethic is something that is usually passed down and we can and should expect great things from their kids when they come of age.

Not necessarily.  Many children of immigrants are "Americanized" in the sense of being much more materialistic and less hard working.

JohnG@lt wrote:

We survived quite well in this country before Marx, as did Europe.

There is clearly a better quality of life since the New Deal rather than before it.

Yeah? The pittance Social Security pays is that important huh? Go check out my thread on the value of savings and investment. All SS did was give people the false belief that they no longer had to worry about their retirement. I'd say that SS and Medicare are huge direct contributors to the current mentality of living on credit and living paycheck to paycheck. And I'd say that this is the real reason that wages have stagnated and/or declined. Instead of saving, investing and having more money to spend in the long run, all these idiots are paying interest on credit cards and homes they can't afford.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-01-10 11:58:03)

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yeah? The pittance Social Security pays is that important huh? Go check out my thread on the value of savings and investment. All SS did was give people the false belief that they no longer had to worry about their retirement. I'd say that SS and Medicare are huge direct contributors to the current mentality of living on credit and living paycheck to paycheck.

Well, if it's any consolation, I support phasing out SS.  The point remains that it began as a good program.  It was necessary to implement in the beginning, and believe it or not, it was originally going to be a temporary program.

Had Congress stuck with the original plan of making it temporary, SS could have easily been phased out in the late 60s without a problem.  I realize because it has stuck around, it has become a big money pit.

Address my edit, because it has strong implications on your original statement about wages declining and an 'underclass'.

Legal immigration to the US is a bitch. Shit, going to the states means I can't work until the 2nd year and has to have college approval or some shit. It is a huge fucking hassle tbh.

What doesn't kill me will make me stronger I guess.

I think for the US most people take advantage of the safety net wayyyyyyy too much... In Europe they have better benefits, but less leeches in the system. Welfare is fucking corrupt in the states I guess. I think America is one of those countries where if you bitch about illegals stealing your job, it is your own goddamn fault for not taking advantage of the education system. America doesn't need more teachers, they need better students. A kid at my school here in Taiwan (international) had a 1.9 GPA, but when he moved to the states he got a 3.75... and he is lazy as fuck.

Turquoise wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Legal immigration to the US is a bitch. Shit, going to the states means I can't work until the 2nd year and has to have college approval or some shit. It is a huge fucking hassle tbh.

What doesn't kill me will make me stronger I guess.

I think for the US most people take advantage of the safety net wayyyyyyy too much... In Europe they have better benefits, but less leeches in the system. Welfare is fucking corrupt in the states I guess. I think America is one of those countries where if you bitch about illegals stealing your job, it is your own goddamn fault for not taking advantage of the education system. America doesn't need more teachers, they need better students. A kid at my school here in Taiwan (international) had a 1.9 GPA, but when he moved to the states he got a 3.75... and he is lazy as fuck.

While I am conservative on border security and illegal immigration, I support making the naturalization process easier.  Immigrants who take the time and effort out to follow our rules should be respected and rewarded for doing so.  This is why I can't support most amnesty schemes.

Its funny when I read about illegal immigration, since NAFTA just made it easier.

Cybargs wrote:

Legal immigration to the US is a bitch. Shit, going to the states means I can't work until the 2nd year and has to have college approval or some shit. It is a huge fucking hassle tbh.

What doesn't kill me will make me stronger I guess.

I think for the US most people take advantage of the safety net wayyyyyyy too much... In Europe they have better benefits, but less leeches in the system. Welfare is fucking corrupt in the states I guess. I think America is one of those countries where if you bitch about illegals stealing your job, it is your own goddamn fault for not taking advantage of the education system. America doesn't need more teachers, they need better students. A kid at my school here in Taiwan (international) had a 1.9 GPA, but when he moved to the states he got a 3.75... and he is lazy as fuck.

And that sums this entire conversation up quite nicely