Give me one example. Not just a religous book, a book like the bible.
Huh?
How do I know that?
By the fact that me and all my classmates were doing it in Grade 1...
How do I know that?
By the fact that me and all my classmates were doing it in Grade 1...
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Thats a great example of how books like the bible are common.
WTF?JaMDuDe wrote:
Thats a great example of how books like the bible are common.
Not a book ffs!
Do you expect 5 year olds to write books? (BTW, I meant people making up stuff to find 'answers', not writing books over a long period of time)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
I dont recall saying its uncommon for people to write books about finding lifes mysteries, i said it would be pretty hard for some random guys who want answers to write a book in different places, in different times with different people over 2000 years ago. That would need EXTREME teamwork without God.JaMDuDe wrote:
As i said before, the bible was written in different times, different places, and by different people and it all came together to make sense over 2000 years ago. I doubt anyone could do that without phones or email or any technology. And theres some archaeological proof that the places and sometimes the people were all real. That would be pretty hard for some random people to write up cause they wanted some more answers.
Marconius- "They can't be allowed to do so because then their political backing violates the Establishment clause in the 1st Amendment. You have a religious group influencing legislation on morality and "heritage" views that only apply to their way of life. It's a violation if any religious group does this...."Marconius wrote:
They can't be allowed to do so because then their political backing violates the Establishment clause in the 1st Amendment. You have a religious group influencing legislation on morality and "heritage" views that only apply to their way of life. It's a violation if any religious group does this...it's just the fact that christians have the largest following in this country that they are the most outspoken and easily tracked when it comes down to issues like this.kkolodsick wrote:
I want to make sure I understand you correctly:
Christian groups shouldn't be allowed to lobby because they are large, therefore influtntial, and have money?
By that reasoning you should be against the republicans/democrats because they are the two largest political groups in the US.
There will always be a Christian religious influence in this country because it was founded on Christian fundamentals. It's freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. Now I know that one is pulled out all the time by Christians but what I mean by it is that our government will not mandate any religion but we shouldn't take religion out of our country. To single out the Christians because of the size of the group or their financial backing is absolutely crazy.
America is NOT a christian nation, even though the majority of Americans identify with one form of it or another. The freedoms that this country grants can not be limited to the christian ideal dogma, nor can it be handled by a group of people influenced by their own morality base and their own religious agendas...doing so only leads to theocracy. Religion is all fine and good existing as a separate entity in this country, but that's how it should always be. Religion was never meant to tip it's hand into the government, since that's exactly what the Deist forefathers were trying to get away from.
Always remember the tyranny of the majority:and Tocqueville:Federalist Paper #10 wrote:
A pure Democracy, by which I mean, a Society, consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the Government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert results from the form of Government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party, or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is, that such Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.Alexis de Tocqueville wrote:
That which I reproach the democratic government for the most, such as it is organized in the United States, is not (like many Europeans claim) its weakness, but, to the contrary, its irresistible force. And that which disgusts me the most in America, is not the extreme liberty which reigns there, but the lack of guarantees one finds there against tyranny.
Wow, did you sniff glue before reading the Constitution???? The Catholic Church is not part of the US government last I knew. So the Catholics take orders from who???? The President??? They must answer to Congress Right???? I suppose the Mormon Church is run by the Justice Dept.....
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
R U 1 of those morons that think there is something in the Constitution that states "separation of church and state????" and therefore praying in school is illegal. News Flash, anyone can pray in school whenever they want, the state run school cannot force the student to Pray, ie Government Run Religion. Our fore father just didn't want another "Church of England" type affair going on with the government they were creating.
And as you already know the 2nd Amendment gave you the right to wear short sleeved shirts.
...
I can't even fathom this...you seem to be viciously arguing for my point right back at me and trying to insult me at the same time. Good job!
I don't agree with religious groups gathering together to support legislation and politicians, as then they influence what laws get passed and the actions of the politician. While it's not like directly electing a priest into the government, it's close enough to give the 1st Amendment a run for its money most of the time. This influence is defined as an establishment of religion, especially when it comes down to a dogmatic moral/ethical law that only seeks to ease the minds of one set of people.
And yes, I KNOW anyone can pray when they want. Discussing "legislative influence" infers that "prayer in schools" means a public school declaring a mandatory prayer period in the beginning of class. And for the rest of what you said...you just kind of reworded the last part of my statement before I quoted Madison and Tocqueville.
I can't even fathom this...you seem to be viciously arguing for my point right back at me and trying to insult me at the same time. Good job!
I don't agree with religious groups gathering together to support legislation and politicians, as then they influence what laws get passed and the actions of the politician. While it's not like directly electing a priest into the government, it's close enough to give the 1st Amendment a run for its money most of the time. This influence is defined as an establishment of religion, especially when it comes down to a dogmatic moral/ethical law that only seeks to ease the minds of one set of people.
And yes, I KNOW anyone can pray when they want. Discussing "legislative influence" infers that "prayer in schools" means a public school declaring a mandatory prayer period in the beginning of class. And for the rest of what you said...you just kind of reworded the last part of my statement before I quoted Madison and Tocqueville.
No one is forcing Christianity down this countries throat. Read my post, the government will not MANDATE a religion. Of course you have your right to believe or not believe anything you want. That is what makes this country great.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
That is where you are wrong, and one point that religious groups often don't understand. While you have freedom of religion, I do in fact have the right to not have religion forced on me, therefore freedom from religion. If I have a preference of no religion, it has as much right as you to have and practice your religion.kkolodsick wrote:
I want to make sure I understand you correctly:Marconius wrote:
Yes, once again, I will hold everyone to the same standards. Yes, I am intolerant of most christians due to my point up there...while they aren't the only religious group in America that is trying to gain political power, they are by far the richest, largest, and most outspoken faith-based group in this country, therefore I can use them as a prime example. If you don't like it because you happen to fall under that blanket, so be it.
-gay marriage
-abortion
-prayer in publics schools
-"under god" in the pledge of allegiance
-10 Commandments and other judeo/christian icons in public areas
-"in god we trust" on our currency
-tax breaks for churches/faith-based groups that show political agenda videos to their parishes
...all of these only some of the points I've debated ad nauseum to prove the religious influence on today's legislation in the State and Federal congresses. If I find others for other faiths, I will post those as well. Currently, these are the most well-known cases, so I stick with them for discussion.
Christian groups shouldn't be allowed to lobby because they are large, therefore influtntial, and have money?
By that reasoning you should be against the republicans/democrats because they are the two largest political groups in the US.
There will always be a Christian religious influence in this country because it was founded on Christian fundamentals. It's freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. Now I know that one is pulled out all the time by Christians but what I mean by it is that our government will not mandate any religion but we shouldn't take religion out of our country. To single out the Christians because of the size of the group or their financial backing is absolutely crazy.
My point is that if someone thinks that Christian groups shouldn't lobby because of their $ or size it's absolutely crazy.
The bible is a religious book.JaMDuDe wrote:
Give me one example. Not just a religous book, a book like the bible.
Slinger, I have very much enjoyed this debate but please don't disrespect the Bible with your Blah Blah Blah's. I respect your opinion to not believe in God please respect mine and we can continue this discussion.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
You didnt make this stuff up but somebody else did. If you want to be taken serious, do not bring up scriptures. As far as anyone knows they could have been written by a race of super smart cigar chomping monkeys.kkolodsick wrote:
Deuteronomy 4:24GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
why should god have a human characteristic of jealousy, that shit sounds so silly to me. God is some dude sitting on a mighty throne in a cloud looking down on everybody feeling angry and jealousy for those that dont worship him WTF I cant go on that is just childish
......blah blah blah blah blah..........
Deuteronomy 5:9
......blah blah blah blah blah..........
Deuteronomy 6:15
......blah blah blah blah blah..........
I didn't make this stuff up. That's why, for Spark, believers in other "Gods" will be punished by this God.
He created everything and only asks that we look to Him and Him only.
Thanks
I agree it is. Well it is mostly stories though... but stories of how ppl and "god communicated". even though im not christian i believe jesus was on this earth, not as a messiah but as a really nice person, he was still a nice guy after all.Daysniper wrote:
The bible is a religious book.JaMDuDe wrote:
Give me one example. Not just a religous book, a book like the bible.
It's because of their tax exempt status. If a church wants to relinquish that status and pay taxes, they can be involved in politics all they want.kkolodsick wrote:
No one is forcing Christianity down this countries throat. Read my post, the government will not MANDATE a religion. Of course you have your right to believe or not believe anything you want. That is what makes this country great.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
That is where you are wrong, and one point that religious groups often don't understand. While you have freedom of religion, I do in fact have the right to not have religion forced on me, therefore freedom from religion. If I have a preference of no religion, it has as much right as you to have and practice your religion.kkolodsick wrote:
I want to make sure I understand you correctly:
Christian groups shouldn't be allowed to lobby because they are large, therefore influtntial, and have money?
By that reasoning you should be against the republicans/democrats because they are the two largest political groups in the US.
There will always be a Christian religious influence in this country because it was founded on Christian fundamentals. It's freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. Now I know that one is pulled out all the time by Christians but what I mean by it is that our government will not mandate any religion but we shouldn't take religion out of our country. To single out the Christians because of the size of the group or their financial backing is absolutely crazy.
My point is that if someone thinks that Christian groups shouldn't lobby because of their $ or size it's absolutely crazy.
Firstly, I'm agnostic. I do not believe in organized religion. I am not taking sides either way because it would be going against my own system of beliefs.
Now, both sides have their points, science can back theirs up. Wow. Science also used to believe in geocentrism for how many thousands of years? World was flat? We can make an elixir to make any element into gold!(Yes I know this has been possible since the 1940s with neutron irradiation but how many thousands of years did people search for the "Philosopher's Stone"? And the process costs more to make then gold is worth
Science isn't always right.
Theology, it boils down to faith pure and simple. That is why you will not dissuade people from believing in something they have faith in, they have to come to the conclusion on their own to either lose their faith or reinforce it.
Science and religion have always been at ends. One side trying to disprove the other... hasn't really worked yet has it? And it never will. There will always be something more than science for people to grasp onto to live their lives more happily. Both science and religion can be used as a crutch in life, which one is more right if that is the case?
Personally I see that whole issue as if it gets people through their day without freaking out and killing me I could give a shit less what they believe in. I can't see how our entire universe was created by a single element, hydrogen.... or what even created that element without some universal strive for order. Please don't misinterpret me, I am not calling that strive for order some omnipotent being you might call God. If every action were the result of chaos there would be nothing to cause that chaos to begin with, there has to be some reason behind it. There has to be something more... I don't think it can be explained by science or theology yet, if ever.
Now, both sides have their points, science can back theirs up. Wow. Science also used to believe in geocentrism for how many thousands of years? World was flat? We can make an elixir to make any element into gold!(Yes I know this has been possible since the 1940s with neutron irradiation but how many thousands of years did people search for the "Philosopher's Stone"? And the process costs more to make then gold is worth
Science isn't always right.
Theology, it boils down to faith pure and simple. That is why you will not dissuade people from believing in something they have faith in, they have to come to the conclusion on their own to either lose their faith or reinforce it.
Science and religion have always been at ends. One side trying to disprove the other... hasn't really worked yet has it? And it never will. There will always be something more than science for people to grasp onto to live their lives more happily. Both science and religion can be used as a crutch in life, which one is more right if that is the case?
Personally I see that whole issue as if it gets people through their day without freaking out and killing me I could give a shit less what they believe in. I can't see how our entire universe was created by a single element, hydrogen.... or what even created that element without some universal strive for order. Please don't misinterpret me, I am not calling that strive for order some omnipotent being you might call God. If every action were the result of chaos there would be nothing to cause that chaos to begin with, there has to be some reason behind it. There has to be something more... I don't think it can be explained by science or theology yet, if ever.
And their tax status has what to do with it? Lower income people pay no taxes either should they be allowed to vote? Blue Cross is a healt care insurance company that pays not taxes and they lobby, is that ok?Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
It's because of their tax exempt status. If a church wants to relinquish that status and pay taxes, they can be involved in politics all they want.kkolodsick wrote:
No one is forcing Christianity down this countries throat. Read my post, the government will not MANDATE a religion. Of course you have your right to believe or not believe anything you want. That is what makes this country great.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
That is where you are wrong, and one point that religious groups often don't understand. While you have freedom of religion, I do in fact have the right to not have religion forced on me, therefore freedom from religion. If I have a preference of no religion, it has as much right as you to have and practice your religion.
My point is that if someone thinks that Christian groups shouldn't lobby because of their $ or size it's absolutely crazy.
The church is an extremely rich and well-backed organization that doesn't have to pay taxes, where very low-income families have no money to pay taxes with. A corporation that does not give back to the government that houses them in this country should NOT be influencing the legislative and political outcomes of the very same government. That means a powerful outside source is trying to force their lobbying ideals while the rest of tax-paying Americans may or may not agree with what is being influenced. You are ok with this type of lobbying?
fair enough but please dont use verses from the bible to back up your argument. I apologize for any offense ive givenkkolodsick wrote:
Slinger, I have very much enjoyed this debate but please don't disrespect the Bible with your Blah Blah Blah's. I respect your opinion to not believe in God please respect mine and we can continue this discussion.
Thanks
People with low incomes still pay taxes, even if they get most or all of it back. Also, they must still pay taxes on purchases. Any for profit organization must pay income taxes and taxes on purchases, unless the item is for resale, at which point taxes are collected. As a not for profit organization a church doesn't have to pay taxes on gifts, donations, or any income they receive. They also have tax exempt status on all purchases. As such, they are not allowed to be directly involved in politics. They can make their stance known on issues, and then their members can vote for candidates that have the same beliefs, but the church may not be directly involved in a candidate's campaign, fund raising, or anything of that nature.kkolodsick wrote:
And their tax status has what to do with it? Lower income people pay no taxes either should they be allowed to vote? Blue Cross is a healt care insurance company that pays not taxes and they lobby, is that ok?Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
It's because of their tax exempt status. If a church wants to relinquish that status and pay taxes, they can be involved in politics all they want.kkolodsick wrote:
No one is forcing Christianity down this countries throat. Read my post, the government will not MANDATE a religion. Of course you have your right to believe or not believe anything you want. That is what makes this country great.
My point is that if someone thinks that Christian groups shouldn't lobby because of their $ or size it's absolutely crazy.
No problem man, just had to let you know. I only quoted the chaper/verse because you said it was silly that I said God was jealous. That was my back up.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
fair enough but please dont use verses from the bible to back up your argument. I apologize for any offense ive givenkkolodsick wrote:
Slinger, I have very much enjoyed this debate but please don't disrespect the Bible with your Blah Blah Blah's. I respect your opinion to not believe in God please respect mine and we can continue this discussion.
Thanks
Now let's get back to debating.
Well then moron, they don't pay taxes do they? Just because it is taken from your check doesn't mean you are paying it. I agree a church proper shouldn't lobby but do you know about the Christian groups lobbying? Are they tax exempt? If so I agree with you but I don't know the answer to that one.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
People with low incomes still pay taxes, even if they get most or all of it back. Also, they must still pay taxes on purchases. Any for profit organization must pay income taxes and taxes on purchases, unless the item is for resale, at which point taxes are collected. As a not for profit organization a church doesn't have to pay taxes on gifts, donations, or any income they receive. They also have tax exempt status on all purchases. As such, they are not allowed to be directly involved in politics. They can make their stance known on issues, and then their members can vote for candidates that have the same beliefs, but the church may not be directly involved in a candidate's campaign, fund raising, or anything of that nature.kkolodsick wrote:
And their tax status has what to do with it? Lower income people pay no taxes either should they be allowed to vote? Blue Cross is a healt care insurance company that pays not taxes and they lobby, is that ok?Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
It's because of their tax exempt status. If a church wants to relinquish that status and pay taxes, they can be involved in politics all they want.
Why will no one debate me? I fought I wrote real good.
You need better reading comprehension. I meant a book as complex as the bible. Not just a religous book like the koran which was written by one guy over 23 years.Daysniper wrote:
The bible is a religious book.JaMDuDe wrote:
Give me one example. Not just a religous book, a book like the bible.
My Sociology tutor at Uni had an interesting point of view. One that was actually taught on the sylabus which some of you may feel adds weight to it:
Religion was developed as a means of social control. A way of controlling people before police and the law was a viable option. Uneducated townsfolk and peasants of old were force fed religion by their masters through preachers and their royal. The concept of being punished for a bad deed in the afterlife worked perfectly, and was more effective in those days than inforcing civil law. This is why people were burned at the stake for "witchcraft" rather than simply commiting a crime.
Personally I've no doubt that Jesus existed, but as for the rest it's safe to say i'm not convinced. Why are we here? We're here because the right amount of heat/light/oxygen/etc happened to be in the right place at the right time, and continues to be so. Why is the heat/light/oxygen here? Well, your guess is as good as mine on that front... all I know is: I'm here, I plan on staying, and i'm gonna have a damn good time for as long as I continue to be so. Amen to that
Religion was developed as a means of social control. A way of controlling people before police and the law was a viable option. Uneducated townsfolk and peasants of old were force fed religion by their masters through preachers and their royal. The concept of being punished for a bad deed in the afterlife worked perfectly, and was more effective in those days than inforcing civil law. This is why people were burned at the stake for "witchcraft" rather than simply commiting a crime.
Personally I've no doubt that Jesus existed, but as for the rest it's safe to say i'm not convinced. Why are we here? We're here because the right amount of heat/light/oxygen/etc happened to be in the right place at the right time, and continues to be so. Why is the heat/light/oxygen here? Well, your guess is as good as mine on that front... all I know is: I'm here, I plan on staying, and i'm gonna have a damn good time for as long as I continue to be so. Amen to that
please give me an example of the complexity of the bibleJaMDuDe wrote:
You need better reading comprehension. I meant a book as complex as the bible. Not just a religous book like the koran which was written by one guy over 23 years.Daysniper wrote:
The bible is a religious book.JaMDuDe wrote:
Give me one example. Not just a religous book, a book like the bible.
You tried reading it????! It's not an easy read! lol
There are verses for almost everything. Prophets. I still dont think ive heard a scientific anwser for how they knew Jesus was coming hundreds of years before He came.JaMDuDe wrote:
As i said before, the bible was written in different times, different places, and by different people and it all came together to make sense over 2000 years ago. I doubt anyone could do that without phones or email or any technology. And theres some archaeological proof that the places and sometimes the people were all real. That would be pretty hard for some random people to write up cause they wanted some more answers.
Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-04-20 09:02:06)