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2010-01-07 16:36:29
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

DesertFox- wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

While we're off topic as we are, I just don't get why vegetarians think they're all high and mighty for not eating meat. The only reason they don't feel bad about eating plants is because they're not all cute and cuddly like animals are but plants are still organisms, too.
oh you really need the difference between an animal and a plant explained to ya?
You're killing it to eat it. You just don't feel bad about it because it's not all cuddly.
www.savetoby.com
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-01-07 23:44:11
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land

DesertFox- wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

While we're off topic as we are, I just don't get why vegetarians think they're all high and mighty for not eating meat. The only reason they don't feel bad about eating plants is because they're not all cute and cuddly like animals are but plants are still organisms, too.
oh you really need the difference between an animal and a plant explained to ya?
You're killing it to eat it. You just don't feel bad about it because it's not all cuddly.
well I don't think cows or chickens are very cuddly..that's not why I don't eat them! although lambs are quite cute. Ever heard of the ability to feel pain and suffer? That's the main one. but, if you think plants feel pain then w.h.a.t.e.v.e.r!
2010-01-08 05:59:00
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6702|'Murka

So if they're raised humanely and killed humanely, it's OK to eat them?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-01-08 06:31:08
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land

FEOS wrote:

So if they're raised humanely and killed humanely, it's OK to eat them?
Well imo it's surely not as bad. Like most moral questions this one also admits of varying degrees of rightness and wrongness wouldn't you say?

That's why I don't think say hunting a deer that has lived all its life in the wild is as bad as eating a factory famred cow. It's also not as bad for you healthwise, which is another good reason not to eat processed shitty meat like you get in burgers and crap.
2010-01-08 06:35:40
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

ruisleipa wrote:

FEOS wrote:

So if they're raised humanely and killed humanely, it's OK to eat them?
Well imo it's surely not as bad. Like most moral questions this one also admits of varying degrees of rightness and wrongness wouldn't you say?

That's why I don't think say hunting a deer that has lived all its life in the wild is as bad as eating a factory famred cow. It's also not as bad for you healthwise, which is another good reason not to eat processed shitty meat like you get in burgers and crap.
If a cow doesn't know any better it's not missing anything now is it? I would think killing Bambi, who has known freedom and lived in the wild would be more abhorrent to your sensibilities.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-01-08 06:36:24)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-01-08 07:09:15
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land

JohnG@lt wrote:

If a cow doesn't know any better it's not missing anything now is it? I would think killing Bambi, who has known freedom and lived in the wild would be more abhorrent to your sensibilities.
so by that logic a human who has been raised locked in a cage all his/her life and left in some squalid cellar also 'doesn't know any better' isn't missing anything either then is he/she?

Hmmmm...
2010-01-08 07:14:56
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6702|'Murka

ruisleipa wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

If a cow doesn't know any better it's not missing anything now is it? I would think killing Bambi, who has known freedom and lived in the wild would be more abhorrent to your sensibilities.
so by that logic a human who has been raised locked in a cage all his/her life and left in some squalid cellar also 'doesn't know any better' isn't missing anything either then is he/she?

Hmmmm...
No...unless you're equating a cow to a human.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-01-08 07:15:08
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

ruisleipa wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

If a cow doesn't know any better it's not missing anything now is it? I would think killing Bambi, who has known freedom and lived in the wild would be more abhorrent to your sensibilities.
so by that logic a human who has been raised locked in a cage all his/her life and left in some squalid cellar also 'doesn't know any better' isn't missing anything either then is he/she?

Hmmmm...
Yes, exactly. If it's all you know then you would think it's normal.

We're not born with an innate 'I want to frolic naked in the forests' gene, it's an environmental inclusion after birth.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-01-08 07:21:57
13rin
Member
+977|6770

JohnG@lt wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

If a cow doesn't know any better it's not missing anything now is it? I would think killing Bambi, who has known freedom and lived in the wild would be more abhorrent to your sensibilities.
so by that logic a human who has been raised locked in a cage all his/her life and left in some squalid cellar also 'doesn't know any better' isn't missing anything either then is he/she?

Hmmmm...
Yes, exactly. If it's all you know then you would think it's normal.

We're not born with an innate 'I want to frolic naked in the forests' gene, it's an environmental inclusion after birth.
Then there are these guys....
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
2010-01-08 07:24:54
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

DBBrinson1 wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:


so by that logic a human who has been raised locked in a cage all his/her life and left in some squalid cellar also 'doesn't know any better' isn't missing anything either then is he/she?

Hmmmm...
Yes, exactly. If it's all you know then you would think it's normal.

We're not born with an innate 'I want to frolic naked in the forests' gene, it's an environmental inclusion after birth.
Then there are these guys....
Now those people are just weird and confused.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-01-08 07:55:51
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6514|Escea

DBBrinson1 wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:


so by that logic a human who has been raised locked in a cage all his/her life and left in some squalid cellar also 'doesn't know any better' isn't missing anything either then is he/she?

Hmmmm...
Yes, exactly. If it's all you know then you would think it's normal.

We're not born with an innate 'I want to frolic naked in the forests' gene, it's an environmental inclusion after birth.
Then there are these guys....
OH MY FUCKING GOD
2010-01-08 08:02:30
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes, exactly. If it's all you know then you would think it's normal.

FEOS wrote:

No...unless you're equating a cow to a human.
better speak with galt about that one feos...

not sure what that has to do with choosing to be vegetarian though.

as for those guys on the vid, dunno what that's all about tbh.

Last edited by ruisleipa (2010-01-08 08:03:05)

2010-01-08 08:22:25
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6702|'Murka

ruisleipa wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes, exactly. If it's all you know then you would think it's normal.

FEOS wrote:

No...unless you're equating a cow to a human.
better speak with galt about that one feos...

not sure what that has to do with choosing to be vegetarian though.

as for those guys on the vid, dunno what that's all about tbh.
He's arguing it from your apparent logical approach-- I don't think he necessarily places the same value on the life of a cow that he places on the life of a human.

Hence why I asked you the question.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-01-08 08:28:00
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

FEOS wrote:

ruisleipa wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Yes, exactly. If it's all you know then you would think it's normal.

FEOS wrote:

No...unless you're equating a cow to a human.
better speak with galt about that one feos...

not sure what that has to do with choosing to be vegetarian though.

as for those guys on the vid, dunno what that's all about tbh.
He's arguing it from your apparent logical approach-- I don't think he necessarily places the same value on the life of a cow that he places on the life of a human.

Hence why I asked you the question.
I don't. Obviously My point was that a person knows what they've experienced. If they grew up on a farm, they know farm life and city life is alien. The reverse is also very much true. If a human grew up in a cage, all they would know is cage life and anything different would be scary and unfamiliar.

Logically we can extend this to animals who we assume have even less awareness of their surroundings or a capacity to understand anything more than see food, eat food, poop.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-01-08 08:28:55)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-01-08 08:31:03
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6702|'Murka

Exactly. Two different arguments:

1. Relative value of life: animal vs human

2. Relative quality of life: if you don't know what you're missing, are you really missing anything?

Last edited by FEOS (2010-01-08 08:31:24)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-01-08 08:37:45
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land
OK well let me take that to its logical conclusion. A mentally retarded human individual who has no concept of self and so on by your argument wouldn't be having anything done wrong to them if they were held in a cage etc etc. Yeah? In fact to take them OUT of a cage would be doing them wrong because they'd be 'confused'?

btw just so I can discuss this knowing why I'm doing so - are you guys arguing that vegetarianism is somehow unethical or that there is no ethical basis for it or what? cos I'm pretty confused by your weird arguments at the mo I admit.

Last edited by ruisleipa (2010-01-08 08:39:12)

2010-01-08 08:39:39
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

ruisleipa wrote:

OK well let me take that to its logical conclusion. A mentally retarded human individual who has no concept of self and so on by your argument wouldn't be having anything done wrong to them if they were held in a cage etc etc. Yeah?
How could you possibly construe that to be the logical ending of this argument? We didn't even remotely infer that.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-01-08 08:40:53
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land

JohnG@lt wrote:

My point was that a person knows what they've experienced. If they grew up on a farm, they know farm life and city life is alien. The reverse is also very much true. If a human grew up in a cage, all they would know is cage life and anything different would be scary and unfamiliar.

Logically we can extend this to animals who we assume have even less awareness of their surroundings or a capacity to understand anything more than see food, eat food, poop.
Read your fourth sentence - that's what you said. Pretty clear right there.
2010-01-08 08:42:30
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

ruisleipa wrote:

btw just so I can discuss this knowing why I'm doing so - are you guys arguing that vegetarianism is somehow unethical or that there is no ethical basis for it or what? cos I'm pretty confused by your weird arguments at the mo I admit.
We're arguing that 'cage free' or 'free range' are nothing more than marketing gimicks that people like you buy into and that really mean fuck all.

Vegetarianism is not unethical, but it's far from being the superior life choice that people make it out to be. It's the equivalent of trying to live your life with one hand tied behind your back. People choose it for various reasons, most of them stupid.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-01-08 08:46:41
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

ruisleipa wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

My point was that a person knows what they've experienced. If they grew up on a farm, they know farm life and city life is alien. The reverse is also very much true. If a human grew up in a cage, all they would know is cage life and anything different would be scary and unfamiliar.

Logically we can extend this to animals who we assume have even less awareness of their surroundings or a capacity to understand anything more than see food, eat food, poop.
Read your fourth sentence - that's what you said. Pretty clear right there.
Sigh... it's not that difficult of a concept.

If you grow up on a farm, living in the city would be alien and weird. The farm would be a metaphorical cage because your experience has limited you to it's four walls.
If you grow up in the city, the limits of your neighborhood or the boundary line of your city would be your metaphorical cage.
If you grow up in a cage, the four walls are clearly defined, they can be seen, but are the same as those experienced by the man on the farm or the man in the city who's bars can not be seen, but exist in the same manner.

We can only know what we have experienced ourselves.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-01-08 08:47:52)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-01-08 08:48:16
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land

JohnG@lt wrote:

We're arguing that 'cage free' or 'free range' are nothing more than marketing gimicks that people like you buy into and that really mean fuck all.

Vegetarianism is not unethical, but it's far from being the superior life choice that people make it out to be. It's the equivalent of trying to live your life with one hand tied behind your back. People choose it for various reasons, most of them stupid.
marketing gimmicks? well yo've got a long way to go to prove that this:

https://www.animalactivism.org/documents/photos/med_19672_battery-cages4.jpg

isn't worse than even this:

https://briansullivan.blogs.foxbusiness.com/files/2009/03/chicken-farm.jpg

for both the animals and the humans that eat their meat.

Please, if you're so bothered, explain why 'most' reasons people are vege are stupid, and which arguments you think are NOT stupid.
2010-01-08 08:51:34
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England
Why are vegetarians stupid? Could they survive in this world as vegetarians if they didn't have easy access to soy products and vitamin supplements? No. Humans were not supposed to live on fruit and vegetables alone. Thinking they are somehow morally superior because they choose to live a boring gastric life is just asinine.

Preaching their idiocy and trying to make it the normal path for humans is irresponsible at best.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-01-08 08:52:41)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-01-08 08:53:59
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why are vegetarians stupid? Could they survive in this world as vegetarians if they didn't have easy access to soy products and vitamin supplements? No. Humans were not supposed to live on fruit and vegetables alone. Thinking they are somehow morally superior because they choose to live a boring gastric life is just asinine.
here you go with this morally superior stuff again. where does that come from? all veges theink they are morally superior? what? prove that, if you can, and then read my other posts where I say that I couldn't really care less if you choose to eat meat. but the ethical arguments for vegetarianism you've totally ignored with your weird mindgames about living in a cgae or something equaly irrelevant. sorry bout that.

also please say which are the stupid arguments and which are the good arguments for being a vege.
2010-01-08 08:55:45
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6513|teh FIN-land

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why are vegetarians stupid? Could they survive in this world as vegetarians if they didn't have easy access to soy products and vitamin supplements? No. Humans were not supposed to live on fruit and vegetables alone. Thinking they are somehow morally superior because they choose to live a boring gastric life is just asinine.

Preaching their idiocy and trying to make it the normal path for humans is irresponsible at best.
p.s. not 'meant' to? that doesn't even MEAN anything. We CAN live on fruit and veg so why not?

Irresponsible at best? lol please man you're worse than those tree-crying people, just in the opposite direction. funny guy.

and if you'd ever eaten good vege food you'd know it isn't boring!!! But you obviously don't know about it at all...
2010-01-08 08:58:23
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6421|North Tonawanda, NY

ruisleipa wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Why are vegetarians stupid? Could they survive in this world as vegetarians if they didn't have easy access to soy products and vitamin supplements? No. Humans were not supposed to live on fruit and vegetables alone. Thinking they are somehow morally superior because they choose to live a boring gastric life is just asinine.

Preaching their idiocy and trying to make it the normal path for humans is irresponsible at best.
p.s. not 'meant' to? that doesn't even MEAN anything. We CAN live on fruit and veg so why not?

Irresponsible at best? lol please man you're worse than those tree-crying people, just in the opposite direction. funny guy.

and if you'd ever eaten good vege food you'd know it isn't boring!!! But you obviously don't know about it at all...
Given the length of the human digestive tract, it's pretty clear that we were meant to be omnivores.  It's not long enough to be efficiently vegetarian, and longer than needed for pure carnivore.  Of course, that ignores the obvious dietary requirements that are easily provided for with an omnivorous diet...

 

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