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2009-12-30 03:38:13
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

US policy is US policy, it is not to be dictated to by a fucked up religion.
Don't blub when your policies blow up in your face if you're not prepared to think about them.

Turquoise wrote:

I think a better question would be "Why would anyone LIKE Israel?"
Exactly.
Why didn't you guys back white South Africa? They were also racist loons in a foreign land surrounded by people who hated them.
No one is "blubbing", they're fighting back.

Besides, our relationship with Israel does not hurt anything except the ability of some Muslim and Arab nations abilty to destroy it.
2009-12-30 04:01:12
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX
Besides, our relationship with Israel does not hurt anything except the ability of some Muslim and Arab nations abilty to destroy it.
It hurts the US because you're engaged in a global war of terror as a direct result.
Fuck Israel
2009-12-30 04:05:40
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

Besides, our relationship with Israel does not hurt anything except the ability of some Muslim and Arab nations abilty to destroy it.
It hurts the US because you're engaged in a global war of terror as a direct result.
We stand up for what we believe is right, and we do not believe Israel should be destroyed by the Arab or Islamic world.

and there is nothing in this fight that would suggest the rest of western society would be left alone if Israel was not our ally.
2009-12-30 10:10:44
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6692|North Carolina

Dilbert_X wrote:

Why didn't you guys back white South Africa? They were also racist loons in a foreign land surrounded by people who hated them.
Well, Reagan kind of did....
2009-12-31 00:01:44
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Note the date. The plan for AQ hadn't even been built yet. Once it was realized that finding UBL was not important to taking down AQ, he stopped saying that.
You really don't keep up with current affairs do you?

Dilbert_X wrote:

Gen McChrystal: Bin Laden is key to al-Qaeda defeat 

McChrystal supports troop increase
The top US commander in Afghanistan has said al-Qaeda will not be defeated unless its leader, Osama Bin Laden, is captured or killed.

Testifying to US Congress, Gen Stanley McChrystal said Bin Laden had become an "iconic figure".
He said President Barack Obama's deployment of 30,000 extra troops to Afghanistan meant success was possible.
But he said the mission was "undeniably difficult" and the next 18 months would be crucial.

"I don't think that we can finally defeat al-Qaeda until he's captured or killed," said Gen McChrystal of Bin Laden.
"I believe he is an iconic figure at this point, whose survival emboldens al-Qaeda as a franchising organisation across the world," he said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8402138.stm
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=133167

Who is outside the loop?
Seems your former President and the current guy in Afghanistan know whats going on, thank god you're not in charge eh
McChrystal is talking about UBL as an iconic figure for AQ, not as an actual enabler for their operations. Big fucking difference...which you would understand if you had an ounce of understanding on the topic.

But you don't.

And you conveniently left out a key part of the article:

The general said that killing or capturing Bin Laden would not spell the end of al-Qaeda, but that the movement could not be eradicated while Bin Laden remained at large.
The first part is far more important than the second part. Disrupting/destroying the network is far more important than hunting down one man. When the apparatus is non-functional, then you can take your time going after the man, then clean up the remainder of the apparatus. If you ignore the apparatus that does not rely on the man and focus on the man instead, the apparatus grows stronger and even less reliant on the man and continues to hit you...while you hunt for a man who is irrelevant to the apparatus you ultimately want to destroy. It's called prioritization.

And once again: I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

It's amazing how you call Bush an imbecile in one breath and then refer to him as some sort of prescient visionary in the next. Make up your fucking mind, Dilbert.

Last edited by FEOS (2009-12-31 00:07:02)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2009-12-31 04:17:26
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

McChrystal is talking about UBL as an iconic figure for AQ, not as an actual enabler for their operations. Big fucking difference...which you would understand if you had an ounce of understanding on the topic.
But without their iconic figure the organisation would be much lessened.
The first part is far more important than the second part. Disrupting/destroying the network is far more important than hunting down one man.
But as the guy says, hunting down the one man is a key part, which is presumably why its a priority again.
It's amazing how you call Bush an imbecile in one breath and then refer to him as some sort of prescient visionary in the next. Make up your fucking mind, Dilbert.
Didn't say he was a prescient visionary, just that he had a better idea of whats going on than you.
Fuck Israel
2009-12-31 04:37:34
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6509|teh FIN-land

lowing wrote:

We stand up for what we believe is right, and we do not believe Israel should be destroyed by the Arab or Islamic world.

and there is nothing in this fight that would suggest the rest of western society would be left alone if Israel was not our ally.
well, you stand up for what SOME people think is right, and otherwise you stand FOR making shit loads of money for arms dealers, capitalists and...dare I say it...politicians, many of whom are Jewish or have Jewish supporters. So what you REALLY stand for, maybe, is the myth that might is right, and so long as you give us money we'll support your evil little ways. But, maybe by your logic what is 'right' is stealing another people's land, crushing a race, killing children, creating virtual concentration camps, subjugating an entire population, destroying livelihoods, families and bulldozing homes, killing UN peacekeepers and unarmed demonstrators, and supporting the expansionist and ILLEGAL policies of Israel, supporting hidden nuclear weapons programmes (btw funny how Iran is 'the bad guy' with their supposed nuclear programme while Israel can do what-the-fuck eva it wants...how odd)...etc.

Gee whiz you must be fun to have at a party.
2009-12-31 07:51:59
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

ruisleipa wrote:

lowing wrote:

We stand up for what we believe is right, and we do not believe Israel should be destroyed by the Arab or Islamic world.

and there is nothing in this fight that would suggest the rest of western society would be left alone if Israel was not our ally.
well, you stand up for what SOME people think is right, and otherwise you stand FOR making shit loads of money for arms dealers, capitalists and...dare I say it...politicians, many of whom are Jewish or have Jewish supporters. So what you REALLY stand for, maybe, is the myth that might is right, and so long as you give us money we'll support your evil little ways. But, maybe by your logic what is 'right' is stealing another people's land, crushing a race, killing children, creating virtual concentration camps, subjugating an entire population, destroying livelihoods, families and bulldozing homes, killing UN peacekeepers and unarmed demonstrators, and supporting the expansionist and ILLEGAL policies of Israel, supporting hidden nuclear weapons programmes (btw funny how Iran is 'the bad guy' with their supposed nuclear programme while Israel can do what-the-fuck eva it wants...how odd)...etc.

Gee whiz you must be fun to have at a party.
If we supported Israel in its efforts to do "what-the fuck eva it wants". Israel would have ( rightfully) disposed of Iraq in '91 when that country endured countless Scud missile attacks.

Since the only reason Iraq attacked Israel was it knew an Israel retaliation would draw the Arab and Islamic nations into the fight on behalf of Iraq, and leaving people like you denouncing Israel for their "unprovoked aggression" against the region, yet again siting it as proof of how terrible and ruthless Israel is, basically adding it to the situations just like it, where Israel defends itself ,only to be chastised by the likes of you as having such nerve.
By the way, I read a hint of anti-semitism in your post, this is also telling.

Actually, I have a great time at parties, not sure what this has to do with the discussion.
2010-01-02 14:27:03
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

McChrystal is talking about UBL as an iconic figure for AQ, not as an actual enabler for their operations. Big fucking difference...which you would understand if you had an ounce of understanding on the topic.
But without their iconic figure the organisation would be much lessened.
Says you...with your extensive background in this shit.

I'll go with the folks who've spent years studying AQ and similar terrorist organizations who've deemed UBL to be far less critical than the lower-level operational planners like KSM...and the myriad others who have been rounded up/killed to disrupt AQ ops world-wide instead of focusing on UBL. Seems to have worked rather well.

Dilbert_X wrote:

The first part is far more important than the second part. Disrupting/destroying the network is far more important than hunting down one man.
But as the guy says, hunting down the one man is a key part, which is presumably why its a priority again.
Only it's not. He never said it was.

Dilbert_X wrote:

It's amazing how you call Bush an imbecile in one breath and then refer to him as some sort of prescient visionary in the next. Make up your fucking mind, Dilbert.
Didn't say he was a prescient visionary, just that he had a better idea of whats going on than you.
Not really. Hence why he said later that UBL wasn't really that important to stopping AQ's operations.

You simply don't let your own ignorance stand in the way of your opinions, do you?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-01-02 14:40:58
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6509|teh FIN-land

lowing wrote:

Besides, our relationship with Israel does not hurt anything except the ability of some Muslim and Arab nations abilty to destroy it.
hmmm...except all the civilians getting fucked over by Israel. Although if you call turning millions of people against Israel and the US 'not hurting' then....maybe.

having said that, at least Obama has made some right noises by trying to get the Nazis - sorry, I mean Israel (oooh! did you see what I did there? Clever huh?) - to stop their expansionist and illegal settlement policies. Shame there's a bunch of rich people too busy making money out of Zionist politics and Israel (mainly but not entirely in the Republican party AFAIK) that it's gonna be hard even for him.

Oh, regarding my 'anti-semitism' as you called it in another reply - hahahaha. Funny. Lol. etc.
2010-01-02 15:03:33
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

ruisleipa wrote:

lowing wrote:

Besides, our relationship with Israel does not hurt anything except the ability of some Muslim and Arab nations abilty to destroy it.
hmmm...except all the civilians getting fucked over by Israel. Although if you call turning millions of people against Israel and the US 'not hurting' then....maybe.

having said that, at least Obama has made some right noises by trying to get the Nazis - sorry, I mean Israel (oooh! did you see what I did there? Clever huh?) - to stop their expansionist and illegal settlement policies. Shame there's a bunch of rich people too busy making money out of Zionist politics and Israel (mainly but not entirely in the Republican party AFAIK) that it's gonna be hard even for him.

Oh, regarding my 'anti-semitism' as you called it in another reply - hahahaha. Funny. Lol. etc.
Civilians get hurt during war, that is a fact. Maybe if the Arab, and Islamic nations stopped making war, people would not get hurt.

Israel has tried the olive branch thing before, only to have itshot out of their hands.

Perhaps you could convince me that the Islamic nations at least would live in peace once Israel is gone, and not turn their efforts toward anyone else?

As far as your anti-semitism remark in the other thread, not too surewhat is so funny about it.
2010-01-02 20:25:43
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Says you...with your extensive background in this shit.
And that McChrystal guy.

lowing wrote:

Israel has tried the olive branch thing before, only to have itshot out of their hands.
They haven't tried so far.
Fuck Israel
2010-01-02 22:55:48
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Says you...with your extensive background in this shit.
And that McChrystal guy.
No. He didn't.

He said AQ as an entity wouldn't be gone until UBL was gone. There is a distinct difference between existing and being functional, as relayed in a previous post. Perhaps you should read it again.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2010-01-03 00:10:42
Karbin
Member
+42|6581

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Says you...with your extensive background in this shit.
And that McChrystal guy.

lowing wrote:

Israel has tried the olive branch thing before, only to have itshot out of their hands.
They haven't tried so far.
Madrid and Oslo (1991-93)

Hebron agreement
Wye River Memorandum  (1996-1999)

Camp David 2000 Summit

Beirut summit
The "Road Map" for peace 
Elon Peace Plan
Peace Valley Plan  (2002 2007)
2010-01-03 00:53:41
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6509|teh FIN-land

lowing wrote:

Civilians get hurt during war, that is a fact. Maybe if the Arab, and Islamic nations stopped making war, people would not get hurt.

Israel has tried the olive branch thing before, only to have itshot out of their hands.

Perhaps you could convince me that the Islamic nations at least would live in peace once Israel is gone, and not turn their efforts toward anyone else?

As far as your anti-semitism remark in the other thread, not too surewhat is so funny about it.
yeah civilians do get hurt in war, which is an excellent reason to avoid it at all costs isn't it? Civilians are not always targetted directly like Israel does. Nor are they blockaded economically, kept in virtual concentration camps, forced to be unemployed, have their homes bulldozed, nor are international peacekeepers murdered in all wars. But they are in Israel, and that's OK by you I suppose.

Israel has NO interest in peace, but they DO have an interest in expanding their borders to take over more land which isn't theirs, as well as building the ILLEGAL wall, building more settlements, using Palestinians for cheap (slave?) labour, and so on.

I'm happy to recommend some excellent literature on this subject if you want to educate yourself.

What's funny is you calling me anti-semitic, not the remark itself.
2010-01-03 07:32:20
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6510|Escea

ruisleipa wrote:

Civilians are not always targetted directly like Israel does. Nor are they blockaded economically, kept in virtual concentration camps, forced to be unemployed, have their homes bulldozed, nor are international peacekeepers murdered in all wars. But they are in Israel, and that's OK by you I suppose.

Israel has NO interest in peace, but they DO have an interest in expanding their borders to take over more land which isn't theirs, as well as building the ILLEGAL wall, building more settlements, using Palestinians for cheap (slave?) labour, and so on.
Peculiar statement really.

Tell me something, if Israel is really the nation version of Charlie Manson, why haven't they just levelled Gaza? I mean they're super genocidal and all that. They directly targeted civilians, apparently, yet they spend huge amounts of money and time on researching more and more accurate weapons and systems. Israel has a strong interest in peace, because they've been defending themselves for the good part of sixty years. They're dealing with a people who are above all some of the most stubborn when it comes to dropping a grudge. As long as the Pals support groups like Hamas, their situation will not improve.

As far as settlements go, Israel forcibly evacuated and then demolished those in Sinai in 1982 when asked to do so by Egypt. They evacuated parts of Gaza and the West Bank, even leaving behind greenhouses for the Pals to use, which the Pals then destroyed. They also damaged synagouges that were left, which goes to show that even when you do what they want, they'll still find the time to damage everything. Hell the Pals even hate the Bedouins because they occupied some of the Israeli settlements before beign evacuated. Those Arabs got on fine with the Israelis and were allowed to move around freely. But Israel systematically targets Arabs doesn't it?
2010-01-03 09:10:23
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

ruisleipa wrote:

lowing wrote:

Civilians get hurt during war, that is a fact. Maybe if the Arab, and Islamic nations stopped making war, people would not get hurt.

Israel has tried the olive branch thing before, only to have itshot out of their hands.

Perhaps you could convince me that the Islamic nations at least would live in peace once Israel is gone, and not turn their efforts toward anyone else?

As far as your anti-semitism remark in the other thread, not too surewhat is so funny about it.
yeah civilians do get hurt in war, which is an excellent reason to avoid it at all costs isn't it? Civilians are not always targetted directly like Israel does. Nor are they blockaded economically, kept in virtual concentration camps, forced to be unemployed, have their homes bulldozed, nor are international peacekeepers murdered in all wars. But they are in Israel, and that's OK by you I suppose.

Israel has NO interest in peace, but they DO have an interest in expanding their borders to take over more land which isn't theirs, as well as building the ILLEGAL wall, building more settlements, using Palestinians for cheap (slave?) labour, and so on.

I'm happy to recommend some excellent literature on this subject if you want to educate yourself.

What's funny is you calling me anti-semitic, not the remark itself.
"Civilians are not always targetted directly like Israel does. Nor are they blockaded economically, kept in virtual concentration camps, forced to be unemployed"   

^^^^^^^^^^

Can't lie to ya, I stopped reading after this bullshit. Feel free to try again after you take in what you have said here, picked up a history book, and realized how this is completely untrue.
2010-01-03 09:11:23
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Says you...with your extensive background in this shit.
And that McChrystal guy.

lowing wrote:

Israel has tried the olive branch thing before, only to have itshot out of their hands.
They haven't tried so far.
You may wanna pick up a history book as well.
2010-01-03 10:34:35
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6509|teh FIN-land

lowing wrote:

"Civilians are not always targetted directly like Israel does. Nor are they blockaded economically, kept in virtual concentration camps, forced to be unemployed"   

^^^^^^^^^^

Can't lie to ya, I stopped reading after this bullshit. Feel free to try again after you take in what you have said here, picked up a history book, and realized how this is completely untrue.
LOL you've made up your mind already, are so one-sided and close-minded it's untrue and you 'stop reading after this bullshit'.

Well, I'll suggest ONE book to you that you might want to read: The Other Side of Israel: My Journey Across the Jewish/Arab Divide by Susan Nathan (http://www.amazon.com/Other-Side-Israel … 0385514565).

If you can be arsed, read it.
2010-01-03 10:36:15
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6509|teh FIN-land

M.O.A.B wrote:

But Israel systematically targets Arabs doesn't it?
errr...yes?
2010-01-03 14:48:48
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6938|USA

ruisleipa wrote:

lowing wrote:

"Civilians are not always targetted directly like Israel does. Nor are they blockaded economically, kept in virtual concentration camps, forced to be unemployed"   

^^^^^^^^^^

Can't lie to ya, I stopped reading after this bullshit. Feel free to try again after you take in what you have said here, picked up a history book, and realized how this is completely untrue.
LOL you've made up your mind already, are so one-sided and close-minded it's untrue and you 'stop reading after this bullshit'.

Well, I'll suggest ONE book to you that you might want to read: The Other Side of Israel: My Journey Across the Jewish/Arab Divide by Susan Nathan (http://www.amazon.com/Other-Side-Israel … 0385514565).

If you can be arsed, read it.
So you have a book that supports your opinions, so does everyone else that disagrees with you.

It is akin to offering me a book that shows abortion is wrong as proof that it is, when there are plenty of books supporting the opposite opinion. It proves nothing.

Also trying to figure out how it comes to pass where, you disagree with me and you are open mined, and intelligent, apparently, while I disagree with you, and I am stupid and close minded. How does that work?
2010-01-04 00:36:53
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6509|teh FIN-land

lowing wrote:

So you have a book that supports your opinions, so does everyone else that disagrees with you.

It is akin to offering me a book that shows abortion is wrong as proof that it is, when there are plenty of books supporting the opposite opinion. It proves nothing.

Also trying to figure out how it comes to pass where, you disagree with me and you are open mined, and intelligent, apparently, while I disagree with you, and I am stupid and close minded. How does that work?
why not just read it and then tell me what you think kthx. Or at least read a synopsis of the book, which doesn't try to provide intellectual arguments for the rightness or wrongness of the illegal Israeli settlements or occupation, but simply describes life under the Israeils for palestinians who live INSIDE Israel, are nominally Isralei citizens, and yet are treated as second-class citizens in a way more than reminisicent of the South African apartheid system back in the bad old days. The state you're supporting is documented as being racist, killing civilians, and maintaing and encouraging illegal settlements. The fact YOU think they're a bunch of good guys tells us more about you than anything else. I guess P.W. botha was one of your heroes.

You're not close-minded because you disagree with me, you're close minded cos everything has to do with Islamic fundamentalism as far as you're concerned, even shit toally unrelated e.g. the Irish blasphemy law.
2010-01-04 01:49:46
Chou
Member
+737|7078
Sure, Saddam did stuff wrong but so did Bush & Blair, we don't see them getting hanged in Iraq anytime soon for all the lies, murders and destroying a country under false conditions, do we?

keep paying your taxes.
2010-01-04 03:10:34
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7003

Chou wrote:

Sure, Saddam did stuff wrong but so did Bush & Blair, we don't see them getting hanged in Iraq anytime soon for all the lies, murders and destroying a country under false conditions, do we?

keep paying your taxes.
Saddam was hung for crimes against humanity for the shit he did to the kurds and various other Iraqis. Bush and Blair didn't exactly tell the military "Yeah bomb this village today." learn2internationallawkthnx.

Mod edit: Removed off topic content.

Last edited by Varegg (2010-01-04 05:05:42)

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2010-01-04 16:20:34
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6692|North Carolina

Chou wrote:

Sure, Saddam did stuff wrong but so did Bush & Blair, we don't see them getting hanged in Iraq anytime soon for all the lies, murders and destroying a country under false conditions, do we?

keep paying your taxes.
Gassing over a hundred thousand Kurds is another ball game altogether.

 

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