BF2S Forums Damn the deficit: Full speed ahead on health care

I dont vote for parties.

I also hope someday youll leave your house.  Im familiar with your posts

Last edited by eleven bravo (2009-12-24 21:46:10)

JohnG@lt wrote:

Taxachusetts is bleeding jobs. The party is going to end shortly.

Well, as you mentioned originally, losing jobs is another obstacle to the statewide approach.

Then again, part of why other countries don't have to deal with as much outsourcing as the U.S. is that they put more restrictions on key industries.  For example, in industries that are prevalent among their own members, EU countries have policies that restrict the amount of goods produced overseas that are allowed to be sold in EU countries.  In other cases, they impose tariffs on these goods.

A large part of why protectionism still exists today is because many corporations would rather outsource than produce domestically, if the governments involved allow them to.  The fact that we don't protect most of our manufacturing might benefit our consumers, but it screws over a lot of our labor force.

There comes a point where comparative advantage becomes a euphemism for cheap labor.  Unless your labor force is sufficiently adapted to the global market, a certain amount of protectionism is needed at least temporarily.  Funding something like a national health system requires said measures at least initially.

Reciprocal trade policy is definitely the most practical course of action.

Now, the optimal situation to be in is to have a labor force that is highly educated and skilled, so that freeing up trade becomes more of an option.  Unfortunately, our current labor force is relatively uneducated when compared to much of the rest of the First World.

Protectionism hurts your country's consumers the most.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Reciprocal trade policy is definitely the most practical course of action.

Now, the optimal situation to be in is to have a labor force that is highly educated and skilled, so that freeing up trade becomes more of an option.  Unfortunately, our current labor force is relatively uneducated when compared to much of the rest of the First World.

An overeducated workforce is a burden. You end up with union janitors commanding six figure salaries

lol... Well, inevitably, there will be varying levels of skill and intelligence.  There will always be a certain percentage of people that, no matter how well they are instructed, will still be less intelligent and less skilled.

This is why I prefer the German approach of separating students by technical and academic skills.  Not everyone is going to be best suited for literature or science.  Some people are better at automotive repair or construction.  Of course, that's not a slight against tradesmen.  In many cases, technical jobs pay more straight out of college than academic ones.  It's usually easier to find work as a tradesman as well.

Another neat thing I've heard about German culture is that they really take pride in most of their jobs.  Even a janitor is respected if he works hard.  I wish we were more like that.

Last edited by Turquoise (2009-12-25 18:57:27)

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Reciprocal trade policy is definitely the most practical course of action.

Now, the optimal situation to be in is to have a labor force that is highly educated and skilled, so that freeing up trade becomes more of an option.  Unfortunately, our current labor force is relatively uneducated when compared to much of the rest of the First World.

An overeducated workforce is a burden. You end up with union janitors commanding six figure salaries

lol... Well, inevitably, there will be varying levels of skill and intelligence.  There will always be a certain percentage of people that, no matter how well they are instructed, will still be less intelligent and less skilled.

This is why I prefer the German approach of separating students by technical and academic skills.  Not everyone is going to be best suited for literature or science.  Some people are better at automotive repair or construction.  Of course, that's not a slight against tradesmen.  In many cases, technical jobs pay more straight out of college than academic ones.  It's usually easier to find work as a tradesmen as well.

Another neat thing I've heard about German culture is that they really take pride in most of their jobs.  Even a janitor is respected if he works hard.  I wish we were more like that.

I also envy the gymnasiums. It's a better approach to teaching because it's not one-size-fits-all. However, shoehorning a kid into a trade for the rest of his life before he's even 18 is not a good decision, especially if he doesn't have any say in the matter. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life until I was 27.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lol... Well, inevitably, there will be varying levels of skill and intelligence.  There will always be a certain percentage of people that, no matter how well they are instructed, will still be less intelligent and less skilled.

This is why I prefer the German approach of separating students by technical and academic skills.  Not everyone is going to be best suited for literature or science.  Some people are better at automotive repair or construction.  Of course, that's not a slight against tradesmen.  In many cases, technical jobs pay more straight out of college than academic ones.  It's usually easier to find work as a tradesmen as well.

Another neat thing I've heard about German culture is that they really take pride in most of their jobs.  Even a janitor is respected if he works hard.  I wish we were more like that.

I also envy the gymnasiums. It's a better approach to teaching because it's not one-size-fits-all. However, shoehorning a kid into a trade for the rest of his life before he's even 18 is not a good decision, especially if he doesn't have any say in the matter. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life until I was 27.

True, but from what I understand, education is socialized there, so if a student wants to go in another direction, he can.  Now, I'd imagine there's probably some bureaucracy involved, but that's going to be true of just about any system.

Cheapening college degrees like Obama wants to do by providing free college education to everyone doesn't do anyone any favors. It's a complete waste of money. I'd say about 90% of the population of the US doesn't use more than basic addition and subtraction coupled with marginal reading skills to get by in their daily jobs.

Frankly, keeping kids in school for 13 years like we already do is a waste of resources in the vast majority of cases. Our schools need to be transformed into a more meritocratic system rather than the child dumping ground that it currently is. Teachers for kids in the lower tiered classes are nothing more than overpaid babysitters in most cases.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Cheapening college degrees like Obama wants to do by providing free college education to everyone doesn't do anyone any favors. It's a complete waste of money. I'd say about 90% of the population of the US doesn't use more than basic addition and subtraction coupled with marginal reading skills to get by in their daily jobs.

If half of our collegiate system was aimed at trades, you'd see more practical instruction for the needs of most of our population.  There would be fewer jobs in retail and more professionals among our populace.

No college in the world can possibly keep up with the rapidly changing needs of business. Nor can any college provide the absolutely narrow training that most jobs require. You want them to be trained in manufacturing jobs, no? Those jobs have never, and will never, use skilled labor. It's why the auto union has always been a complete joke and bound to fail. They have no bargaining power because any dufus off the street can be brought in and trained on their job in a week.

Much of our college system is already aimed at trades, kids are just dumb and choose to go the easy route with liberal arts degrees. We graduate 80,000 fewer engineers than we need every year which is fine by me because it inflates my future wages. Does it do the country any good? No, not really but you can't hold a gun to a kids head and tell him he needs to be an electrical engineer or else. Business majors are also trained, along with doctors, lawyers, scientists etc. The only one of the jobs in the previous sentence that even comes close to meeting quota is those training for law school. Why? Because there's no math involved.

Turquoise wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Frankly, keeping kids in school for 13 years like we already do is a waste of resources in the vast majority of cases. Our schools need to be transformed into a more meritocratic system rather than the child dumping ground that it currently is. Teachers for kids in the lower tiered classes are nothing more than overpaid babysitters in most cases.

Again, most of those kids could be instructed in trades.  A child that is slow in one intelligence is not necessarily that way in others.

I'm using the 8 intelligences theory as the basis for this observation.

What trades? Autobody? Learning how to take an order at McDonalds? They don't need specialized training for these jobs, it's what OJT is for.

Edit - btw, please refrain from splitting posts, it makes it a pain to reply

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2009-12-25 19:21:59)

Turquoise wrote:

Okay...  I'm not splitting this one... 

First paragraph...  I think you're misinterpreting what I meant earlier.  I realize that comparative advantage will likely always shift manufacturing to the Third World.  Only the highest skilled manufacturing is insulated from this process without some major amount of protectionism involved.

So, that's why earlier I said "temporarily" about protectionism.  In our current state, we have a lot of people that are relatively unskilled and have spent the majority of their lives in manufacturing.  These people are having a tough time finding work.  They primarily live in the Rust Belt, and since most of them are at or near middle age, starting over in a totally different field is difficult.  Retirement is creeping up on these people, and Social Security seems like a temporary fix.

In short, this demographic is the one that necessitates this temporary protectionism.

By consequence, our education system has to anticipate a shifting of our labor towards higher skilled trades and practical trades that can't really be outsourced (like autobody work).  I mean, technically, you could ship your car to China to have it worked on, but most people don't do that....  lol

So, while I'm not suggesting that our education system could fully adapt all students to the narrow needs of every business, I do think it is possible for instruction to be diversified among the trades enough so that most students find trade jobs that pay decently in a relatively short timespan.

Second paragraph...  You would see more engineers graduate in a system where money isn't the issue.  If any student with the talent and devotion needed to become an engineer had access to the instruction, you'd see more engineers entering the workforce.

Third paragraph...  My take on stuff like McDonald's jobs is that, under the system I'm proposing, only kids looking for extra income during college would work those mindless jobs.  They would simply be "first" jobs.  Obviously, when you see older people working at these places, this implies that some people unfortunately get stuck in dead end jobs.  The goal of this system would be to minimize this occurrence.

You're coddling people far too much as well as setting their path for them. People need to be free to choose their own path and make their own mistakes. Frankly, I laugh at those living in dead towns in the Rust Belt. They're sitting there praying that some politician will come along and plop down a factory to replace the one that left town 5-10 years ago. Fucking move to where the jobs are like your ancestors did when they moved into the town in the first place.

The union jobs they had insulated them from the real world and now you're seeing the consequences of having them live outside of a system that told them when to go to work every day, when to take breaks, how to do their jobs, what was safe and what wasn't. Our unions have ruined these people by making them soft and uncompetitive.

As far as more engineers going into the system if schooling was available? That's a crock of shit. 99% of people in this country don't have the desire to sit through advanced calculus, statistics, thermodynamics or any of the other numerous classes I've had to take. That's not going to suddenly change if you create a fully socialized system where college is free. The most likely result of a system like that would be lowering of standards to push people through like we've gotten in our public schools. I'll be damned if I want to sit next to an engineer with inferior training.

Besides, school isn't hard to pay for. Engineering happens to be one of the few professions that can graduate college and pay off all student loan debt in a few years. It's easy to do this when the starting salary is $80k+, not so easy to do when you grab an english degree and make $30k a year doing marketing/advertising. Then there is the path that I took. Four years of military service in return for the GI Bill which is paying for my tuition and providing adequate money for living expenses. The people who say it's too hard to pay for school aren't choosing the correct career path. English degrees are for the lazy children of rich people, not for those trying to move up the social ladder. People don't get this.

As for your last paragraph, that's how it's supposed to work. However, if you haven't noticed with the current generation of 14-25 year olds, they're more interested in playing video games than going outside or working a part time job. Not all of them, of course, but the vast majority of them weren't out playing touch football in the street or riding their bikes as kids. The Nintendo generation is fatter and lazier than any previous generation. If they really wanted those starter jobs, they could have them. My 18 year old brother just got his first job as a cashier and failed at it. He's now pushing shopping carts. I had my first job when I was 13 at a summer camp and and then at 14 I was working part time after school (and after sports practice too mind you, I played 3 varsity sports, football, wrestling and lacrosse). I was buying my own clothes, taking my gf's out on dates and all the other stuff a teenager is supposed to do, with my own money. Find me a kid that does this today and I will worship at his feet. I just don't see it.

Just to expound a bit on my arguments against dead towns. I can't tell you how many people I've met that have stated that education is unnecessary because their goal in life is to get a union factory job. It was an entirely overpaid industry that let people that didn't deserve it attain a lifestyle they didn't earn. There's not a bone in my body that feels sorry for union labor when they force the companies they work for to outsource because they want to be paid $50 an hour to push a button or screw on a few bolts.

Ford overpaid his employees because it was difficult for him to find workers that would do such mentally numbing jobs without quitting. He could afford to do this because there was little competition. Times have changed and there are millions of people in this country that would gladly turn a wrench or push a button for 1/4 of what the union monkeys are and were making. The main culprit in my eyes is the intellectually unstimulating television that Americans subject themselves to for hours every day. When the peoples heads are empty vessels to begin with, they don't notice the lack of mental stimulation in a factory environment. In Ford's day they read newspapers and could hold a conversation about more than who won the last NFL game or who got kicked off of American Idol. Today? Automatons.

SenorToenails wrote:

... And I'll be damned if I want an engineer designing a bridge if they only passed due to lowered standards.

Already happened with Race quotas sadly.  What's even worst is those of a particular race who are actually good are stigmatized.

12/24/09 12:05 PM EST: The massive accounting blunder that should sink health care reform

Please accept my apologies.  I made the assumption that liberals where shortsighted when it came to government spending and don't understand the repercussions of irresponsible rampant spending and government mandates.