BF2S Forums Without WMD we would have found another excuse to invade Iraq

Dilbert_X wrote:

How did the Taliban 'aid Bin Laden'?

lowing wrote:

By the way, were we done with 1441, or are you still  for thewanting yo argue the definition of "is" ?

Wut?

see? just like this.


edited, typed too fast


The Taliban had Bin Laden in protective custody and refused to hand him over wanting evidence of his guilt, regardless that he himself admitted to the attacks. The US was not in the mood for bullshit games ( kinda like yours) and decided to follow through with its threats ( unlike the UN) that harboring terrorists, makes you our enemy.

Last edited by lowing (2009-12-18 04:31:54)

FEOS, I invite you to read the book by Steven Coll about the Bin Laden family. Very interesting stuff. Then also read The Islamist, by Ed Husain (an English Muslim).

The Saudis certainly do have some responsibility to hold for much of Bin Laden and the rest of the Islamist population of the world. Where do you think many Islamist groups get their funding from? From Saudi nationals. I am NOT saying the government of Saudi Arabia, but rather much of the population is certainly not holding themselves up for judgment. Much like many Americans refused to check Bush at the beginning.

Early on, Osama also got LOTS of support from other Saudis, especially when he was fighting with the mujahadeen. Again, not the government, but fellow Saudis. Many think he still does to this day. Osama was not a poor man, either. When he was in high school, he was already being converted to Islamist viewpoints by a teacher who was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood (an Islamist organization banned in my Muslim countries, as is Hizb ut-Tahrir - a spin-off of the Muslim Brotherhood.

You can't deny that the Saudi government has also turned very much a blind-eye towards its own population. Sure, they put on a nice show and dance for the USA, but that's all it is - a song and dance. The USA is allied with a government that IS an Islamist country in many ways. Saudi Arabia is a very fundamentalist country, even though its rulers are totally NON fundamentalist in many ways behind closed doors (again, read the book on the Bin Ladens; the family was very tight with the Al-Sauds and still is to this day).

Sorry, but Saudi Arabia is a breeding ground for extremism and until the royal family accepts this and puts forth a proper campaign to kick out the Wahabbis and put a stop to extremism, it won't stop.

But I urge you to read both books. The Islamist is very short whereas The Bin Ladens (by Steven Coll) is quite long. The Islamist deals with Ed Husain's journey to becoming an Islamist in England, becoming a radical and urging the toppling of the West to his journey through the Middle East (including Saudi Arabia) and away from radicalism. It's a true story and Ed has been a guest on the Doha Debates (at least once that I know of) and is an anti-Islamist activist. Even if you ignore Coll's book, read Ed's.

lowing wrote:

The Taliban had Bin Laden in protective custody and refused to hand him over wanting evidence of his guilt, regardless that he himself admitted to the attacks. The US was not in the mood for bullshit games ( kinda like yours) and decided to follow through with its threats ( unlike the UN) that harboring terrorists, makes you our enemy

Seems like a pretty faggy thing to do, not respond to a simple request and just start bombing.
Hasn't it gone well eh? No Bin Laden and the war still has no end in sight.
GG Team America.

Duh, respond to their request and negotiate for Bin Laden.
Might have been more successful than eight years of fail.

Dilbert_X wrote:

lowing wrote:

The Taliban had Bin Laden in protective custody and refused to hand him over wanting evidence of his guilt, regardless that he himself admitted to the attacks. The US was not in the mood for bullshit games ( kinda like yours) and decided to follow through with its threats ( unlike the UN) that harboring terrorists, makes you our enemy

Seems like a pretty faggy thing to do, not respond to a simple request and just start bombing.
Hasn't it gone well eh? No Bin Laden and the war still has no end in sight.
GG Team America.

Yeah, Dilbert, I am betting it was just that simple.

anyway, you asked how the Taliban aided Bin Laden, and now you know.

CapnNismo wrote:

FEOS, I invite you to read the book by Steven Coll about the Bin Laden family. Very interesting stuff. Then also read The Islamist, by Ed Husain (an English Muslim).

The Saudis certainly do have some responsibility to hold for much of Bin Laden and the rest of the Islamist population of the world. Where do you think many Islamist groups get their funding from? From Saudi nationals. I am NOT saying the government of Saudi Arabia, but rather much of the population is certainly not holding themselves up for judgment. Much like many Americans refused to check Bush at the beginning.

Early on, Osama also got LOTS of support from other Saudis, especially when he was fighting with the mujahadeen. Again, not the government, but fellow Saudis. Many think he still does to this day. Osama was not a poor man, either. When he was in high school, he was already being converted to Islamist viewpoints by a teacher who was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood (an Islamist organization banned in my Muslim countries, as is Hizb ut-Tahrir - a spin-off of the Muslim Brotherhood.

You can't deny that the Saudi government has also turned very much a blind-eye towards its own population. Sure, they put on a nice show and dance for the USA, but that's all it is - a song and dance. The USA is allied with a government that IS an Islamist country in many ways. Saudi Arabia is a very fundamentalist country, even though its rulers are totally NON fundamentalist in many ways behind closed doors (again, read the book on the Bin Ladens; the family was very tight with the Al-Sauds and still is to this day).

Sorry, but Saudi Arabia is a breeding ground for extremism and until the royal family accepts this and puts forth a proper campaign to kick out the Wahabbis and put a stop to extremism, it won't stop.

But I urge you to read both books. The Islamist is very short whereas The Bin Ladens (by Steven Coll) is quite long. The Islamist deals with Ed Husain's journey to becoming an Islamist in England, becoming a radical and urging the toppling of the West to his journey through the Middle East (including Saudi Arabia) and away from radicalism. It's a true story and Ed has been a guest on the Doha Debates (at least once that I know of) and is an anti-Islamist activist. Even if you ignore Coll's book, read Ed's.

I fully understand the issues WRT the Saudi population and wahabbism. However, that is a far cry from holding the Saudi government responsible for 9/11 simply because 19 Saudi nationals were part of AQ's attacking force and UBL is a Saudi. He clearly acted of his own accord, without Saudi Arabia's backing or blessing...yet Dilbert would have the West attack Saudi Arabia.

Like that wouldn't play right into AQ's "war on Islam" propaganda machine...

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

The US government did no such thing. Private enterprises within the US may have supported the IRA, but the the US government has not provided safe haven for them nor raised funds for them.

The US declined to investigate them, prosecute them, and allowed them to raise funds.

Pretty sure the US government did no such thing.

Dilbert_X wrote:

And just how would you have had us approach the issue? Say "pretty please" when they said "no"?

I would have tried something other than 'Do what I tell you or else', tends to put peoples backs up.
Its funny, AQ and the Taleban seem to be living comfortably in Pakistan, yet Pakistan isn't being invaded, their govt toppled, etc etc.

Don't know if you heard, but the Pakistani Army is currently kicking the living shit out of militants in Taliban areas. Hardly "living comfortably" by any definition.

I guess if the Taliban had done the same to AQ, we wouldn't have had an issue...

Damn pesky facts ruining your conspiracy theories again.

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Pretty sure the US government did no such thing.

Hmmm, the Irish Freedom Committee and Noraid had no problems operating in the US, raising funds for bombs and weapons for terrorist groups.
Oh right, the Irish vote, sorry.

FEOS wrote:

Don't know if you heard, but the Pakistani Army is currently kicking the living shit out of militants in Taliban areas. Hardly "living comfortably" by any definition.

Strange the US demanded instant action from the Taleban but Pakistan gets eight years leeway?
It took them a long time to pretend they were doing anything.

dilbert i think any leader who showed any hesitation at that time would have been crucified in every way shape and form.

Dilbert_X wrote:

It wasn't about hesitation it was about achieving results, which the US specatcularly avoided doing.
Its hard to believe they could have got it more wrong if they'd tried to, which suggests they did.

they got rid of the taliban (or so they thought), which was reasonable enough. not catching osama was a bit of an eyebrow raiser sure but i don't think it was a complete failure.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I thought the objective was to catch Bin Laden, not so much destroy the Taliban.

it was, but destroying the taliban was a juicy secondary. so they thought 'yeah, that's good enough' and everyone basically agreed for whatever reason.

btw http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wal … 6362499269 is a laugh (this is on-topic)

Its new information about Iraq from one of the two major protagonists.

I support Shifty's proposal.  Add some bikini clad women in there, too.  They'll never go back to burqas.

Turquoise wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

I suggest we conquer them with our strong culture of Starbucks and McDonald's, then there will be world peace because everybody is too busy getting fat on Lattés and Big Macs

For the most part, this is already working.  It's just that a fanatical minority of Muslims wants to fight us.

A large part of them wanting to fight us is because exactly that, we are exporting our culture which clashes directly with theirs.