Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5788

I love reading newsweek, favorite magazine. Anyway I found this article interesting and wanted to share.
Neoconservatism: can there be a label more reviled? Condemned abroad, blamed for Iraq and Katrina, neoconservatism would seem dead and buried.

But not only will neoconservatism return, it remains the best hope for balanced two-party democracy in the United States.

The American right that has emerged since 2008, of Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh, is a movement of cultural protest. But protest is not enough. Americans won't reject even a badly damaged incumbent unless they see a credible alternative.

Neoconservatism's mission from the start has been to create such an alternative. As the late Irving Kristol wrote in 2003, "[T]he historical task of neoconservatism [is] to convert the Republican party, and American conservatism, into a new kind of conservative politics suitable to governing a modern democracy."

The term "neoconservatism" was coined in the late 1960s to describe a small group who'd noticed that the era's great liberal social reforms weren't working well: urban renewal was killing cities; poverty was worsening as fast as antipoverty programs were growing.

Most of these thinkers and politicians had begun as Democrats, and many remained so. But some did shift allegiance. They brought to their new home some valuable new insights and habits, which are as desperately needed by the GOP today as in 1970.

First: They were practical. These neoconservatives persuaded Republicans like Jack Kemp and Ronald Reagan toaccept Social Security and Medicare. Now some conservative icons are denouncing the Federal Reserve (created in 1913!) as an unacceptable innovation. This is the route to the museum, not to government.

Second: They were scientific and details-oriented. They cared about getting the facts right. The reckless disregard of accuracy shown by those who invented the "death panels" charge was utterly alien to them. And they could admit when they were wrong.
Fourth: They took for granted that politics demanded intelligence and substantial knowledge. They admired politicians like Sens. Henry Jackson and Daniel Patrick Moynihan. That's a far cry from this past year's dismissal of brains.

Fifth: The original neoconservatives felt a deep optimism about the United States. They despised alienated radicals who flung epithets like "fascist" at U.S. institutions and leaders. Now similarly angry talk is being heard from an alienated right. In 1967, Ronald Reagan signed a law forbidding the carrying of loaded guns in public. Today guns are again reappearing at political rallies—and this time there is no Reagan to say no.

It will take tremendous discipline to transcend today's partisan anger and rebuild conservatism as a broad national movement. Yet this work is essential to sustaining a competitive political sys-tem in the United States. In 2006 and 2008, Americans rejected a conservatism they saw as incompetent and irrelevant. But that rejection did not mean they wanted to hand the keys to the car to an unchecked Democratic Party. Americans want balance in their politics.

To provide it, America needs a practical, modern, secular conservatism that delivers results that benefit the ordinary voter. Maybe we need a new label. Neoneoconservatism anyone?
http://www.newsweek.com/id/225637/page/1
So which would you prefer a Palin type or a Neocon?
Morpheus
This shit still going?
+508|6201|The Mitten
I'd prefer somebody based on their merits as opposed to what party they claimed to be with
EE (hats
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6918
Neocons actually. Samuel Huntington and Francis Fukiyama are win.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6877|Canberra, AUS
Neoconservative is anything but conservative.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6613|'Murka

I prefer understanding of concepts over labels, personally.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6308|eXtreme to the maX
I don't think politics going to extremes of right and left helps anyone really.
If the 8 years of Bush are what neoconservatism are about then good luck.
Fuck Israel
jsnipy
...
+3,276|6724|...

Dilbert_X wrote:

I don't think politics going to extremes of right and left helps anyone
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6851

Neo-Cons of the past did not have such bad ideas. However the ones of the PNAC era are not the type of people you want running a country.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6613|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

I don't think politics going to extremes of right and left helps anyone really.
If the 8 years of Bush are what neoconservatism are about then good luck.
I think if you read what neoconservatism is supposed to be in the article, you'll see that's not what Bush et al were/are.

I would liken them more to highly informed/educated libertarians...to throw out a label (as much as I hate them).
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6308|eXtreme to the maX
US politics seems to have its nomenclature thoroughly mixed up

Liberals = Communists = Libertarians ?

Republicans = Greed is Good = Principles of the Founding Fathers ?

Neoconservatives = Pure Free Market = Raise Taxes to expand the Military Industrial Complex ?

Democrats = Um not even going to try.

It would be a lot easier if you guys could start from scratch, ideally with new names.
I for one have lost track of who means what when they use the current terms.
Fuck Israel
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6757
I sometimes read Newsweek. It's like Team America:World Police in print form. As many have stated already: labels fail. Life is not a binary one or the other.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6853|USA
I am kinda loving this. Notice how it is only the liberals that want to do away with "labels". Unless of course it comes down to labeling a racist, bigot, Nazi, war monger etc. in the attempt to dismiss an argument rather argue against it. Then labeling appears to be fine.
 
I suppose what they really mean is, do away with labeling THEM, that way you cannot distinguish fucked up liberal ideology and pin it on them. Because apparently they do not to be associated with their own bullshit.

Label me a conservative, or libertarian all you want, I am proud of it.

Last edited by lowing (2009-12-10 06:49:57)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5560|London, England

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

I don't think politics going to extremes of right and left helps anyone really.
If the 8 years of Bush are what neoconservatism are about then good luck.
I think if you read what neoconservatism is supposed to be in the article, you'll see that's not what Bush et al were/are.

I would liken them more to highly informed/educated libertarians...to throw out a label (as much as I hate them).
Don't sully the reputation of libertarians. Neocons are hawks and believe in a strong central government. Libertarians are doves and believe in a weak central government. The only thing we agree on are economics. But even here, they believe in market intervention and the forcible opening of new markets with military force. Libertarians believe in a more organic opening up of markets like "See what we have? You can have it too if you're willing to trade".

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2009-12-10 06:53:02)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6853|USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

I don't think politics going to extremes of right and left helps anyone really.
If the 8 years of Bush are what neoconservatism are about then good luck.
I think if you read what neoconservatism is supposed to be in the article, you'll see that's not what Bush et al were/are.

I would liken them more to highly informed/educated libertarians...to throw out a label (as much as I hate them).
Don't sully the reputation of libertarians. Neocons are hawks and believe in a strong central government. Libertarians are doves and believe in a weak central government. The only thing we agree on are economics. But even here, they believe in market intervention and the forcible opening of new markets with military force. Libertarians believe in a more organic opening up of markets like "See what we have? You can have it too if you're willing to trade".
Doves? Not sure I agree with that, I consider myself a libertarian, however, I bow to the fact that that liberty needs protected by a strong military. Hardly like a dove.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5560|London, England

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I think if you read what neoconservatism is supposed to be in the article, you'll see that's not what Bush et al were/are.

I would liken them more to highly informed/educated libertarians...to throw out a label (as much as I hate them).
Don't sully the reputation of libertarians. Neocons are hawks and believe in a strong central government. Libertarians are doves and believe in a weak central government. The only thing we agree on are economics. But even here, they believe in market intervention and the forcible opening of new markets with military force. Libertarians believe in a more organic opening up of markets like "See what we have? You can have it too if you're willing to trade".
Doves? Not sure I agree with that, I consider myself a libertarian, however, I bow to the fact that that liberty needs protected by a strong military. Hardly like a dove.
You're far more neocon than libertarian. So is Glenn Beck for all that he likes to say otherwise.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2009-12-10 06:56:44)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6853|USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Don't sully the reputation of libertarians. Neocons are hawks and believe in a strong central government. Libertarians are doves and believe in a weak central government. The only thing we agree on are economics. But even here, they believe in market intervention and the forcible opening of new markets with military force. Libertarians believe in a more organic opening up of markets like "See what we have? You can have it too if you're willing to trade".
Doves? Not sure I agree with that, I consider myself a libertarian, however, I bow to the fact that that liberty needs protected by a strong military. Hardly like a dove.
You're far more neocon than libertarian. So is Glenn Beck for all that he likes to say otherwise.
Uhhhh nope, I believe in power to the people, not a central govt. I am also steeped in the reality that that freedom needs to be protected by those who wish us harmed.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5560|London, England

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:


Doves? Not sure I agree with that, I consider myself a libertarian, however, I bow to the fact that that liberty needs protected by a strong military. Hardly like a dove.
You're far more neocon than libertarian. So is Glenn Beck for all that he likes to say otherwise.
Uhhhh nope, I believe in power to the people, not a central govt. I am also steeped in the reality that that freedom needs to be protected by those who wish us harmed.
But at the same time you agree with the war in Iraq even though the consensus is that we invaded solely for economic gain. Offensive military action in order to open a market goes against everything a libertarian stands for.

As I've told you before, you can't be in favor of small government if you carry around a large military. To think otherwise is a paradox.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6853|USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


You're far more neocon than libertarian. So is Glenn Beck for all that he likes to say otherwise.
Uhhhh nope, I believe in power to the people, not a central govt. I am also steeped in the reality that that freedom needs to be protected by those who wish us harmed.
But at the same time you agree with the war in Iraq even though the consensus is that we invaded solely for economic gain. Offensive military action in order to open a market goes against everything a libertarian stands for.

As I've told you before, you can't be in favor of small government if you carry around a large military. To think otherwise is a paradox.
The war in Iraq was started in 91, operations were suspended when Saddam agreed to abide by the resolutions that halted the advance.

Since he then broke those promises hostilities were resumed. In 91 there was an 80 percent approval rating for the war
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5560|London, England

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:


Uhhhh nope, I believe in power to the people, not a central govt. I am also steeped in the reality that that freedom needs to be protected by those who wish us harmed.
But at the same time you agree with the war in Iraq even though the consensus is that we invaded solely for economic gain. Offensive military action in order to open a market goes against everything a libertarian stands for.

As I've told you before, you can't be in favor of small government if you carry around a large military. To think otherwise is a paradox.
The war in Iraq was started in 91, operations were suspended when Saddam agreed to abide by the resolutions that halted the advance.

Since he then broke those promises hostilities were resumed. In 91 there was an 80 percent approval rating for the war
The Persian Gulf War was completely different. You're smart enough to understand that.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6853|USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


But at the same time you agree with the war in Iraq even though the consensus is that we invaded solely for economic gain. Offensive military action in order to open a market goes against everything a libertarian stands for.

As I've told you before, you can't be in favor of small government if you carry around a large military. To think otherwise is a paradox.
The war in Iraq was started in 91, operations were suspended when Saddam agreed to abide by the resolutions that halted the advance.

Since he then broke those promises hostilities were resumed. In 91 there was an 80 percent approval rating for the war
The Persian Gulf War was completely different. You're smart enough to understand that.
Not different. It is a continuation of the same war. Picked up right were it was left off. It only bcame part of the war on terror since the terrorist flooded Iraq after the fall of Saddam. If not for that, and the sabbotage of the progress made in Iraq by the terorrists, we would no longer be there.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5560|London, England

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:


The war in Iraq was started in 91, operations were suspended when Saddam agreed to abide by the resolutions that halted the advance.

Since he then broke those promises hostilities were resumed. In 91 there was an 80 percent approval rating for the war
The Persian Gulf War was completely different. You're smart enough to understand that.
Not different. It is a continuation of the same war. Picked up right were it was left off. It only bcame part of the war on terror since the terrorist flooded Iraq after the fall of Saddam. If not for that, and the sabbotage of the progress made in Iraq by the terorrists, we would no longer be there.
But there was no justifiable reason to restart the war. To the world, it was over. Done. Finito. We had no rational reason to go back. Saddam was toothless and if anything, a stabilizing force in the region.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6853|USA

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


The Persian Gulf War was completely different. You're smart enough to understand that.
Not different. It is a continuation of the same war. Picked up right were it was left off. It only bcame part of the war on terror since the terrorist flooded Iraq after the fall of Saddam. If not for that, and the sabbotage of the progress made in Iraq by the terorrists, we would no longer be there.
But there was no justifiable reason to restart the war. To the world, it was over. Done. Finito. We had no rational reason to go back. Saddam was toothless and if anything, a stabilizing force in the region.
You mean no reason to go back except for his non compliance of the resolutions that stopped the hostilities in the first place. Pretty much undeniable.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5560|London, England

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:


Not different. It is a continuation of the same war. Picked up right were it was left off. It only bcame part of the war on terror since the terrorist flooded Iraq after the fall of Saddam. If not for that, and the sabbotage of the progress made in Iraq by the terorrists, we would no longer be there.
But there was no justifiable reason to restart the war. To the world, it was over. Done. Finito. We had no rational reason to go back. Saddam was toothless and if anything, a stabilizing force in the region.
You mean no reason to go back except for his non compliance of the resolutions that stopped the hostilities in the first place. Pretty much undeniable.
Yeah, but the only person that gave a shit in the entire world was Bush.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6918

lowing wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

lowing wrote:


Not different. It is a continuation of the same war. Picked up right were it was left off. It only bcame part of the war on terror since the terrorist flooded Iraq after the fall of Saddam. If not for that, and the sabbotage of the progress made in Iraq by the terorrists, we would no longer be there.
But there was no justifiable reason to restart the war. To the world, it was over. Done. Finito. We had no rational reason to go back. Saddam was toothless and if anything, a stabilizing force in the region.
You mean no reason to go back except for his non compliance of the resolutions that stopped the hostilities in the first place. Pretty much undeniable.
I hate to say it but lowing is right here... US had every legal right to re-enter Iraq. Countless cease-fire agreements were ignored, UN sanctions being ignored etc...

Besides, clinton was bombing Iraq on a weekly basis. Continuation of bombing Iraq would be a better financial and political option instead of an invasion. It's all about the Walmart and Pizza huts I tell ya.
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Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6823|London, England
Why does it all concern you so much anyway, here you are, always talking about wanting the government out of your face, yet don't seem to wish the same upon other countries regarding your government, and infact want the absolute complete opposite.

You want your government to control every aspect of people's lives outside the borders and want the opposite within your borders. And then you question why those people outside the borders end up hating you for it and act all innocent. It's kinda baffling.

Anyone that is like that is just an asshole, plain and simple, there's literally no other way to describe it. It's a succinct word. You want others to live lifes of misery so that you can have your perfect suburban life, neocons are just downright evil


It doesn't matter about whether they had the right to invade Iraq or not, it was still unnecessary, or at the very least only necessary because of economic/resource reasons.

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2009-12-10 07:49:42)

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