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2006-04-17 02:22:59
ArMaG3dD0n
Member
+24|7078|Deutschland/Germany

SilentNoise105 wrote:

Well because jamdude doesn't seem to like reading my posts here it is again:

Okay, people choose to be evil, but you said god created us. Therefore god created us that way. He made our ability to choose. He knows everything we're gonna do, therefore he knows exactly how we're gonna act when he creates us, and in turn he creates some of us and makes us evil. If he can see everything, and he still chooses to create us all, then he creates some of us and endows those people with evil.

If god created us, then he created all the ways we think and act. Even freewill is something that he created. With this in mind THERE IS NO FAIR WAY FOR HIM TO JUDGE ANY OF US BECAUSE ANY FLAWS OR EVILS HE SEES IN US ARE EVILS HE MADE US OUT OF.

Either he created us all or he judges us all, he can't do both and still be a fair higher power.
Exactly! If there is an almighty god he couldnt punish anyone.

So I guess some of you believe in this:
God is almighty.
God created us.
God knows everything ---> He knows what is going to happen. He knows what I will do in life. So when he would create the world he would say: "Hmmmm......so I ll create Mr.X. But if I create him I know someday he will murder Miss Y. But ah well....who cares. I ll just send him to hell then."

Does this sound like a good god?
Where is free will if you are created by an almighty being? If you say "Well some choose to be evil" you need to see that god made us this way. You say he is almighty so he must even WANT some of us to be evil if you think about it. After all nothing could happen without god wanting it to be exactly this way.

This leaves only X options for me:
If there is a god:
1. God is not almighty and doesnt know everything
2. God does at least not punish anyone
3. God is evil and he likes to punish and torture us like a kid playing with insects

I bet someone will say that human logic doesnt apply to god or that we are just too dumb to understand this.
Sorry but this sounds like a cheap excuse.
2006-04-17 03:13:09
Jibbles
Rifle Expert
+56|6872|Mexifornia, USA
I can't honestly believe that one day, there just HAPPENED to be a bang, a bunch of planets and stuff just HAPPENED to form, and everything else down to the most complicated cells of the smallest, most complicated organisms just HAPPENED to form. How can you go on living if you truly believe that you are no better than a one-celled organism totally oblivious even to it's own existence? That just doesn't make sense. And the basic concept behind evolution is that we started out the most basic, simple, useless piece of nothing, and have somehow evolved into the complex society of today, a kind of "look where we came from, look where we are, where could we be going?" attitude. But the way that the world works, no matter what you believe or want to believe, things progressively get worse. Go buy a brand new Ferrari. Leave it outside to the elements for, let's say 5-10 years. Do you think it will be in the same condition as when it was first completed, if not better? No. Anything physical you can think of will apply the same way. Do our bodies become stronger, faster, or in a better general condition when we reach our eighties? No, no one ever has, and no one ever (naturally) will. Want more scientific reasons evolution can be disproved? Here you go:

1.Decay of Earth's Magnetic Field... Dr. Thomas Barnes, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Texas at El Paso, has published the definitive work in this field.4 Scientific observations since 1829 have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago would approximate that of a magnetic star. Under those conditions many of the atoms necessary for life processes could not form. These data demonstrate that earth's entire history is young, within a few thousand of years.

2.Population Statistics...World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 1089. 9 [that's 2 to the power of 1089.9] The universe does not have space to hold so many bodies.

3.Design in Living Systems...A living cell is so awesomely complex that its interdependent components stagger the imagination and defy evolutionary explanations. A minimal cell contains over 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations.16 The chance of this assemblage occurring by chance is 1 in 10 x 4,478,296 .17 [also, 10 to the power of 4,478,296.17]

4.Radio Halos...Physicist Robert Gentry has reported isolated radio halos of polonuim-214 in crystalline granite. The half-life of this element is 0.000164 seconds! To record the existence of this element in such short time span, the granite must be in crystalline state instantaneously.10 This runs counter to evolutionary estimates of 300 million years for granite to form.

[All cited from www.CreationEvidence.org and its affiliates.]

Try those on for size.

What idea sounds better, the idea that your ancestors, millions of years ago, crawled out of a pond of a primordial soup, figured out how to survive, changed through the years and have now formed you; or the idea that there is more than just this life, but another life without the pains and struggles you face everyday?
Make your decision...
2006-04-17 03:46:58
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6917|Canberra, AUS

Jibbles wrote:

I can't honestly believe that one day, there just HAPPENED to be a bang, a bunch of planets and stuff just HAPPENED to form, and everything else down to the most complicated cells of the smallest, most complicated organisms just HAPPENED to form. How can you go on living if you truly believe that you are no better than a one-celled organism totally oblivious even to it's own existence? That just doesn't make sense. And the basic concept behind evolution is that we started out the most basic, simple, useless piece of nothing, and have somehow evolved into the complex society of today, a kind of "look where we came from, look where we are, where could we be going?" attitude. But the way that the world works, no matter what you believe or want to believe, things progressively get worse. Go buy a brand new Ferrari. Leave it outside to the elements for, let's say 5-10 years. Do you think it will be in the same condition as when it was first completed, if not better? No. Anything physical you can think of will apply the same way. Do our bodies become stronger, faster, or in a better general condition when we reach our eighties? No, no one ever has, and no one ever (naturally) will. Want more scientific reasons evolution can be disproved? Here you go:

1.Decay of Earth's Magnetic Field... Dr. Thomas Barnes, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Texas at El Paso, has published the definitive work in this field.4 Scientific observations since 1829 have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago would approximate that of a magnetic star. Under those conditions many of the atoms necessary for life processes could not form. These data demonstrate that earth's entire history is young, within a few thousand of years.

2.Population Statistics...World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 1089. 9 [that's 2 to the power of 1089.9] The universe does not have space to hold so many bodies.

3.Design in Living Systems...A living cell is so awesomely complex that its interdependent components stagger the imagination and defy evolutionary explanations. A minimal cell contains over 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations.16 The chance of this assemblage occurring by chance is 1 in 10 x 4,478,296 .17 [also, 10 to the power of 4,478,296.17]

4.Radio Halos...Physicist Robert Gentry has reported isolated radio halos of polonuim-214 in crystalline granite. The half-life of this element is 0.000164 seconds! To record the existence of this element in such short time span, the granite must be in crystalline state instantaneously.10 This runs counter to evolutionary estimates of 300 million years for granite to form.

[All cited from www.CreationEvidence.org and its affiliates.]

Try those on for size.

What idea sounds better, the idea that your ancestors, millions of years ago, crawled out of a pond of a primordial soup, figured out how to survive, changed through the years and have now formed you; or the idea that there is more than just this life, but another life without the pains and struggles you face everyday?
Make your decision...
First things first. Your credibility is dented straighaway by the fact YOU ARE NOT USING A NEUTRAL SOURCE.

1. What do you understand by evolution? What IS evolution?

I'll tell you. Natural selection. All orgainsms are created with some mutation (except bacteria and such where mutations are rare). In rare cases, the mutation GIVES THE ORGANISM SOME ADVANTAGE OVER OTHERS. These organisms are more 'sucessful' (if you will) and propogate more often. Now, organisms today have been subjected to this process for OVER 4 BILLION YEARS! More than enough time to ascertain very complex structures.

So you never know. One day there may be an organism that just gets stronger with age. But then it have to find a way to work around entropy, and I can't see that at the present time.

2. Your population has been answered many times over. The answer may disturb you (starts with I). Also you are forgetting just how bad some of these distaters where.

Take the supervolcano eruption in Indonesia, thousands of years ago. Well, it was so bad that the population was reduced to a mere few thousand and stayed like that for a long while - few thousand years. And this is an event that happened several times. This one is not 'bad' by their standards - but its the latest (also may help explain lack of genetic diversity in humans)

3. The radioactive element in rock.

First, WHAT is 'half-life'? It is NOT, as you seem to believe, an exact timer as to when an atom will decay. It is merely an estimate. An average, if you will. Take an individual atom of polonium. The Easter Bunny would give just as good an estimate as to when that atom will decay as the best-educated scientist in the world.

Also, you may be forgetting a few other scenarios

a. There was enough polonium (doesn't need to be much) so that when crystillization occured, there was traceable ammounts left.

b. The polonium was actually another, heavier element caught in the decay process

c. Contamination. Don't forget how easy it is to contaminate a sample.

4. As I said in another thread, polar reversal may be responsible for some of the many mini-extinctions that have occured over the ages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_reversal may help.

This is a very new and sketchy field. We are NOT SURE what is happening to the magnetic field. We don't know whether we are in a geomagnetic excursion. We DO NOT KNOW what will happen, even when the magnetic field reverses (though the general consensus is that solar radiation will increase to the point of being microwave-like). Also, you are pointing out something that contradicts itself.

Geomagnetic reversals have been occuring for millions upon millions of years.

Lets look at this from an evolution point of view.

Bacteria rise over 4 billion years ago.

Poles reverse. Those who cannot adapt to the new condition die.

Those who can adapt survive and propogate. Also, this trait would be common AMONG ALL BACTERIA (due to an amazing trick they have)

Therefore, all organisms have a predisposition to surviving. Those who re-adapt NOT to survive die and are wiped out.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-17 06:56:14
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|7020
Spark you can argue EVERYTHING, we give you the proof and u can use it if you want or just say its not real and make an excuse for it.
2006-04-17 07:15:00
ArMaG3dD0n
Member
+24|7078|Deutschland/Germany
So you would call www.CreationIsF-inCool.com a proof when even some random guy in an internet forum could reveal some contradictions in this?

Assuming 1% population growth in early earth history is just laughable. Even I can see this and I m not a scientist but only interested in biology.
It s useless trying to disprove evolution here when a lot of half-truths are used as a source. Links to www.IloveGodandCreation.com only make me laugh.

Btw: Evolution itself is proven and still visible today. But I assume that when you talk about evolution you mean the development of life on earth etc.
2006-04-17 08:30:10
Pleiam
Member
+5|6878

afewje wrote:

Havent u ever doubted your faith? with science proving more and more things like the big bang theory and finding more and more evidence its hard not to quesiton your faith. What if God or whoever you believe in isnt real what if u die u die thats it, its over no nothing for the rest of eternity. So iunno i would like to know what you guys think. It would be a shame for all the people in the world to have a crummy life then noting forever. makes you think...
Like my faith and the faith of others, miracles are the foundation of their faith. Not neccesarily is their faith built on the basis of scientific fact. Thats why they call it faith and not fact. I suppose even some facts have to be taken with some faith. That reminds me of the Israelites leaving Egyptian bondage; they saw miracle after miracle and yet still complained against God (see Exodus 7-19). Even my faith has a record of the differing views in the world (see I Corinthians 1:17-18). Everyone has a faith. Whether it is in Darwin, God, their own hand-made god, in the Stock market, their combustion engine they drive every day, or in some scientific "fact". Even a declared "fact" has to be taken on faith unless you do the math yourself and even then your assuming that your fallible instruments or brain patterns have computed a factual statement. All these posts I read that inlcude some published scientific fact are believed by those who put their trust in the scientist that published them. I think that pretty much sums up the everyday use of faith by everyone. Now as far as spiritual faith...

I believe my God is the Creator, the Deliverer, the Redeemer (see Isaiah 9:6). He is proven by his creation (see Psalm 19:1).

As for the sufferings, and tragedies endured by everyone on this planet. There is comfort for those who put their trust in the Saviour (see Romans 8:18).

The Saviour himself said of those that have not seen him in his resurrected body (see St. John 20:29-31).


If you don't have the Bible to look up the verses I listed, here is one  crosswalk.com  or this one  http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/mhc/


And please remember the keyword in this post; FAITH

Last edited by Pleiam (2006-04-17 08:55:43)

2006-04-17 13:05:49
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6943

JaMDuDe wrote:

Spark you can argue EVERYTHING, we give you the proof and u can use it if you want or just say its not real and make an excuse for it.
Spark is giving some very rational arguments as to why what you are posting is not proof of anything. The websites you get your information from are incredibly biased. What you need to do is go to your local university and ask some real professors, people who have made a living by knowing this information through and through, and they will tell you that the information at answersingenesis and christiananswers is biased and in some cases just plain ridiculous. In other words, stop accepting that what is in those websites is true because the websites tell you it is.

Pleiam wrote:

Everyone has a faith. Whether it is in Darwin, God, their own hand-made god, in the Stock market, their combustion engine they drive every day, or in some scientific "fact". Even a declared "fact" has to be taken on faith unless you do the math yourself and even then your assuming that your fallible instruments or brain patterns have computed a factual statement. All these posts I read that inlcude some published scientific fact are believed by those who put their trust in the scientist that published them. I think that pretty much sums up the everyday use of faith by everyone. Now as far as spiritual faith...
I think trust would be a better word to describe what everyone feels. Faith is defined as belief without any physical evidence or proof, as in the faith in God. Faith cannot be used to describe the relationship with everyday objects like my car or the stock market, because those things can be and are backed up by physical and rational evidence. In other words I believe my car will start when i turn the key because its designed to do so, and it's done so every other time I've turned the key.

Furthermore, the 'you only believe science because scientists told you it's true' argument can be applied equally to religion. Why do you believe in God? Is it because God personally appeared to you and commanded your obedience? Would you still believe in God if you had not been exposed to the bible, ever? Even assuming that your belief in God is well founded, how do you know that your brain has not computed in error, that this whole 'God' thing is not just a massive delusion on your part? At some point every one of us must accept that on some level we are taking things at face value.
2006-04-17 14:24:08
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6886
anybody know how many different versions of the bible of have been published?
2006-04-17 14:50:22
jonnykill
The Microwave Man
+235|6922
I cut my hair for the Easter Bunny yesterday .
2006-04-17 14:52:48
Lib-Sl@yer
Member
+32|6956|Wherever the F**k i feel like

afewje wrote:

Havent u ever doubted your faith? with science proving more and more things like the big bang theory and finding more and more evidence its hard not to quesiton your faith. What if God or whoever you believe in isnt real what if u die u die thats it, its over no nothing for the rest of eternity. So iunno i would like to know what you guys think. It would be a shame for all the people in the world to have a crummy life then noting forever. makes you think...
Scientist proving the big bang? You are sadly mistakin. They have a therory yes but the big bang has not been provin. From time to time i question things in my faith yes but i always come back to my monotheistic belife.
2006-04-17 14:54:37
SilentNoise105
Member
+5|6839
Okay first things first. Jibbles,you say you can't believe that we all just popped up outta nowhere, well i can't believe some invisable being just made us and then judges us based on qualities that he himself gives us.

Again I don't know why you say its so bizarre that we just happened to fit into being in existence. If any other combination of things would have happened, a different lifeform would have shown up (or maybe none at all), but the combination for humans and earth showed up so here we are. Just because you have a low chance of winning the lottery doesn't mean that no one ever wins the lottery ever.

A CD has 20 tracks. You play the cd and shuffle the tracks. This gives you a unique order of tracks. The odds of having this unique order is 0.0000000000000000411032% (the odds of getting any order of 20 tracks, played only once). So this is your chance of getting it at random. Now this number is very, very small and yet it happened. Now guess what the odds of this happening are if a "higher power" picks them in that same order. Well the chance of that happening with someone choosing is also 0.0000000000000000411032%. This is because even though the person chose the certain order, the person had that many other possibilities to choose from. So if you don't believe it could randomly happen that we just existed out of nothing, well then your pretty much saying we don't exist. The odds of ANY OTHER POSSIBILITY are the same as us appearing and being created from the big bang.

JaMDuDe wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

Your giving God the blame for peoples personal choices. God didnt create evil people, he created people and they chose to be evil. I dont think Him knowing people wouldnt choose him was a good enough reason for him not to create us.
He didnt pick and say " your gona be a murderer and be doomed to hell". He created us and people chose to be againt him. He wants everyone to go to heaven. We cant understand everything even though you want to. He gave us all a chance. Ill try to get a better answer soon. 

He didnt make us evil, we made ourselves evil.
Yet again jamdude you don't seem to pay attention to your own beliefs. Apparently god created EVERYTHING. Our ability to choose to be evil is an ability HE GAVE US. Our ability to go against him is one HE GAVE US. Our ability to sin is one that HE GAVE US. He cannot be a just being if he punishes for abilities he hands out to us and ones that he KNOWS will make us become sinners (because he knows the past, present and future).

muscleback wrote:

Wow what a topic. Stuff like this always get pretty deap. Science has never proven anything. They only have "THEORYS". Thats because there is too many holes in what the come up with.

Y-D, to answer your question. After adam and eve sinned, that gave birth to sin on earth. Satin a fallen angle now the ability to create sin and havoc. God who gave his life for these sins gave us free will. We now have the choice to fallow him and be forgive for the sins on earth.  9/11 and all the things that happen are from the sins on earth and satin having power to create sin.
Okay, your saying that science has never proven anything, and your siding with religion because it has? What has religion proven? Anything you say can easily be cancelled out by science and vice-versa, therefore your argument is null and void. What's the point of even saying things if your going to contradict yourself? The chance that your right is the same as I'm right. Its all theories, both science AND religion.

Last edited by SilentNoise105 (2006-04-17 15:09:35)

2006-04-17 15:12:40
Y-D-Donut?
Want glazed or chocolate?
+2|6885|Puerto Rico

ArMaG3dD0n wrote:

SilentNoise105 wrote:

Well because jamdude doesn't seem to like reading my posts here it is again:

Okay, people choose to be evil, but you said god created us. Therefore god created us that way. He made our ability to choose. He knows everything we're gonna do, therefore he knows exactly how we're gonna act when he creates us, and in turn he creates some of us and makes us evil. If he can see everything, and he still chooses to create us all, then he creates some of us and endows those people with evil.

If god created us, then he created all the ways we think and act. Even freewill is something that he created. With this in mind THERE IS NO FAIR WAY FOR HIM TO JUDGE ANY OF US BECAUSE ANY FLAWS OR EVILS HE SEES IN US ARE EVILS HE MADE US OUT OF.

Either he created us all or he judges us all, he can't do both and still be a fair higher power.
Exactly! If there is an almighty god he couldnt punish anyone.

So I guess some of you believe in this:
God is almighty.
God created us.
God knows everything ---> He knows what is going to happen. He knows what I will do in life. So when he would create the world he would say: "Hmmmm......so I ll create Mr.X. But if I create him I know someday he will murder Miss Y. But ah well....who cares. I ll just send him to hell then."

Does this sound like a good god?
Where is free will if you are created by an almighty being? If you say "Well some choose to be evil" you need to see that god made us this way. You say he is almighty so he must even WANT some of us to be evil if you think about it. After all nothing could happen without god wanting it to be exactly this way.

This leaves only X options for me:
If there is a god:
1. God is not almighty and doesnt know everything
2. God does at least not punish anyone
3. God is evil and he likes to punish and torture us like a kid playing with insects

I bet someone will say that human logic doesnt apply to god or that we are just too dumb to understand this.
Sorry but this sounds like a cheap excuse.
I completely agree.
2006-04-17 15:17:36
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6917|Canberra, AUS

Lib-Sl@yer wrote:

afewje wrote:

Havent u ever doubted your faith? with science proving more and more things like the big bang theory and finding more and more evidence its hard not to quesiton your faith. What if God or whoever you believe in isnt real what if u die u die thats it, its over no nothing for the rest of eternity. So iunno i would like to know what you guys think. It would be a shame for all the people in the world to have a crummy life then noting forever. makes you think...
Scientist proving the big bang? You are sadly mistakin. They have a therory yes but the big bang has not been provin. From time to time i question things in my faith yes but i always come back to my monotheistic belife.
Your right. There is no proof of the Big Bang.

There is only 'evidence' that a Big Bang COULD have happened (microwave background)

Other than that, we don't have the slightest idea. All we know is that before 13? billion years ago, something happened that we can't see.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-17 15:30:14
Lib-Sl@yer
Member
+32|6956|Wherever the F**k i feel like
*mod edit* totally sorry, Lib-slayer, I accidentally edited your post instead of quoting it.  My bad.  But my post addresses what you were talking about.

Last edited by Marconius (2006-04-17 15:58:21)

2006-04-17 15:30:20
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|7020
Here is my bias and false site. http://christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t008.html for silent noise

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-04-17 15:31:33)

2006-04-17 15:31:11
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6943

JaMDuDe wrote:

Here is my bias and false site. http://christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t008.html
Yes. We know. You can stop linking it now.
2006-04-17 15:35:13
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,979|6875|949

here is my bais and false site...  http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

I mean, seriously, c'mon.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2006-04-17 15:35:27)

2006-04-17 15:54:52
DRW-Shadow
Member
+-2|6835

Spark wrote:

Lib-Sl@yer wrote:

afewje wrote:

Havent u ever doubted your faith? with science proving more and more things like the big bang theory and finding more and more evidence its hard not to quesiton your faith. What if God or whoever you believe in isnt real what if u die u die thats it, its over no nothing for the rest of eternity. So iunno i would like to know what you guys think. It would be a shame for all the people in the world to have a crummy life then noting forever. makes you think...
Scientist proving the big bang? You are sadly mistakin. They have a therory yes but the big bang has not been provin. From time to time i question things in my faith yes but i always come back to my monotheistic belife.
Your right. There is no proof of the Big Bang.

There is only 'evidence' that a Big Bang COULD have happened (microwave background)

Other than that, we don't have the slightest idea. All we know is that before 13? billion years ago, something happened that we can't see.
You are correct it is only a theory. However it is backed up with far more logic and fact based evidence than what any religion can provide.

The problem with religion is it doesn't have to be proven. It just needs to be believed in. The problem with the "Big Bang Theory" is that much like the universe it is expanding with every new bit of information we get.  So either you believe in something you can never prove or you can believe in something that has based facts but is always changing. Regardless in the end does it really matter?
2006-04-17 15:58:35
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6917|Canberra, AUS

DRW-Shadow wrote:

Spark wrote:

Lib-Sl@yer wrote:


Scientist proving the big bang? You are sadly mistakin. They have a therory yes but the big bang has not been provin. From time to time i question things in my faith yes but i always come back to my monotheistic belife.
Your right. There is no proof of the Big Bang.

There is only 'evidence' that a Big Bang COULD have happened (microwave background)

Other than that, we don't have the slightest idea. All we know is that before 13? billion years ago, something happened that we can't see.
You are correct it is only a theory. However it is backed up with far more logic and fact based evidence than what any religion can provide.

The problem with religion is it doesn't have to be proven. It just needs to be believed in. The problem with the "Big Bang Theory" is that much like the universe it is expanding with every new bit of information we get.  So either you believe in something you can never prove or you can believe in something that has based facts but is always changing. Regardless in the end does it really matter?
Did you know that the Big Bang theory was first proposed by a Catholic priest?

Shows you why a lot of RELIGIOUS people still believe it anyway.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-17 15:58:50
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6937|San Francisco
All that is doing is attributing the information that science has found to fit within a faith-based mindset.  We have more proof of the Big Bang theory than any other current theory in existence.  The proof we have of the Big Bang exists as information easily reproduced and observed, whereas the "facts" creationists can produce are constantly vague and up for interpretation.

Background radiation accounting for the temperature in space, plus the localization of said temperatures, the general movement of the galaxies in our local group and beyond measured with blue and red-shift, the measure of the change of inertia over our recorded time...all elements that anyone can see and observe if they are so inclined.  These observations will continue to further strengthen the theory as more time is devoted to the study...any facts garnered by the scientific community will inevitably be appropriated by creationists to continually try to apply their faith to the observed knowledge.  Faith running into hard fact is always kind of sad, but if someone has to do it to reaffirm their own convictions, go right ahead.
2006-04-17 16:04:39
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6917|Canberra, AUS

Marconius wrote:

All that is doing is attributing the information that science has found to fit within a faith-based mindset.  We have more proof of the Big Bang theory than any other current theory in existence.  The proof we have of the Big Bang exists as information easily reproduced and observed, whereas the "facts" creationists can produce are constantly vague and up for interpretation.

Background radiation accounting for the temperature in space, plus the localization of said temperatures, the general movement of the galaxies in our local group and beyond measured with blue and red-shift, the measure of the change of inertia over our recorded time...all elements that anyone can see and observe if they are so inclined.  These observations will continue to further strengthen the theory as more time is devoted to the study...any facts garnered by the scientific community will inevitably be appropriated by creationists to continually try to apply their faith to the observed knowledge.  Faith running into hard fact is always kind of sad, but if someone has to do it to reaffirm their own convictions, go right ahead.
Not to debunk you here but...

There may be other explanations for these phenomena (especiall the microwave background) than the big bang. For one thing, it does not explain what all this 'dark matter' is. It does not explain how the universe can accelerate at this speed WITH that darkmatter.

And do you know who came up with the solution?

You guessed it: Einstein himself.

His 'cosmological constant' is a mathematical thing supposedly keeping the expansion of the universe in check. (he calls it the 'biggest blunder of his life')

It is the only thing that first with the Big Bang theory AND solves this problem.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-17 16:14:36
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6937|San Francisco
Well, there still is a reason why it is called a theory.  Belief in the big bang of course is faith in science and numbers, but I feel more comfortable in believing something that is actively being pursued and is constantly evolving itself as more and more information is uncovered (that makes sense) rather than sitting back and taking a 2000+ year old interpretation of it all at face value.
2006-04-17 16:22:02
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6917|Canberra, AUS

Marconius wrote:

Well, there still is a reason why it is called a theory.  Belief in the big bang of course is faith in science and numbers, but I feel more comfortable in believing something that is actively being pursued and is constantly evolving itself as more and more information is uncovered (that makes sense) rather than sitting back and taking a 2000+ year old interpretation of it all at face value.
Exactly.

I would've expected no less of you, though (a rationalized, reasoned answer)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-04-17 16:50:40
SilentNoise105
Member
+5|6839
Honestly, even though that site says God is a pure being and his decisions are right, the fact that they are immoral cannot be ignored. He creates everything about us and the condemns us for the sins that he made us do (you can say we did them all you want, but God made us who we are, any decisions made are ones made with the knowledge and judgement that he gave us). In other words, all that your site is saying is that god can do whatever he wants and cannot be questioned. He could torture and murder all of us with no reasoning and because he said it was right makes it right. Are you worshipping a god or following a dictator out of fear here?

But okay jamdude, if you just believe everything thats fed to you go to that Invisable Flying Spaghetti Monster site. That is my proof against you reasoning, since apparently its not possible for a source to be biased. I dont believe in the Spaghetti Monster, but nevertheless it goes against what your saying and if thats all the evidence we're using in our fights (some source saying the other person is wrong) then i guess I got it.

Armaggedon and Donut, thank you for understanding my argument on why god cannot be both a creator and a judge. The rest of you guys don't have to agree with me on it, but you could at least try and see that my argument makes some sense. I mean this one isn't even about questioning god's existence, its just about his role as a high being.

And lastly Spark and Marconius. Well put on the theory of the big bang, I completely agree too. And Marconius I really like your quote man. Did you use it for this topic or do you just like it in general?

Finally don't forget to read my other posts, because as a lot of the stuff said has been challenged, as much has been ignored.

I bid you all good night.

Last edited by SilentNoise105 (2006-04-17 16:57:51)

2006-04-17 17:04:53
Lib-Sl@yer
Member
+32|6956|Wherever the F**k i feel like

Spark wrote:

DRW-Shadow wrote:

Spark wrote:


Your right. There is no proof of the Big Bang.

There is only 'evidence' that a Big Bang COULD have happened (microwave background)

Other than that, we don't have the slightest idea. All we know is that before 13? billion years ago, something happened that we can't see.
You are correct it is only a theory. However it is backed up with far more logic and fact based evidence than what any religion can provide.

The problem with religion is it doesn't have to be proven. It just needs to be believed in. The problem with the "Big Bang Theory" is that much like the universe it is expanding with every new bit of information we get.  So either you believe in something you can never prove or you can believe in something that has based facts but is always changing. Regardless in the end does it really matter?
Did you know that the Big Bang theory was first proposed by a Catholic priest?

Shows you why a lot of RELIGIOUS people still believe it anyway.
True but could god have created the big bang?

Topic closed

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