Was Hurricane Katrina flooding caused by Army engineers?

2009-11-20 04:12:59

#1

Burwhale: Save the BlobFish!; +136|6509|Brisneyland

US District Judge Stanwood Duval blamed the US Army Corps of Engineers for failing to maintain the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet (MRGO) and allowing the hurricane's storm surge to breach the city's flood defences.

ATG touched on this in another thread, but I thought it warranted its own thread.

The Australian wrote:
It was a "man-made disaster and everyone in New Orleans knows that", the screenwriter John Biguenet, who lives there, said. His view was bolstered by evidence presented to Judge Duval by Sherwood Gagliano, a former consultant to the corps.

Mr Gagliano said that as the MRGO widened it touched the shore of Lake Borgne to the east, becoming a conduit for floodwaters. He testified that "one of the greatest catastrophes in the history of the US" was predictable and preventable.

Personally I am not familiar with the role the US army plays in this area, and was taken aback when I read about this. Without knowing much more about the issue , I find it hard to blame the Army, but the allegations are so serious, that they have to be looked at.

What do you think of this?

2009-11-20 04:19:21

#2

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6697|'Murka

No. It was caused by a hurricane.

The human problem was caused by ineptitude at the state and local levels (see school buses slated for evac purposes sitting in their pens, untasked by Nagin or LA officials).

The CoE had told LA and NO officials long before that a Cat 3 or better storm would likely break the storm walls because that exceeded their design specs.

This is bullshit. Pure and utter bullshit, judicial activism at its worst.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-11-20 04:31:42

#3

Catbox: forgiveness; +505|7003

The levies were really old in NO from what i have read... hadn't been fixed or upgraded for a lot of years
and the politicians in NO are the most corrupt in the US... which is saying a lot.
So it wasn't a priority to them... NO is 17ft below sea level...

People in NO had 4 days notice to leave... i realize there were a lot of really poor people... but they could have found away to get out...
most stayed because they had lived through previous storms... Katrina was a monster and was the real deal.
Mayor Nagin got out... why didnt he call for help and ask for 100s of buses to get everyone to safety?
1 or 2 days to get the buses and 1 day to get everyone out...

After the storm the people in the US and govt and the world donated billions of dollars to help out...
and people down there used the donations to go to strip clubs and buy liquor and guns... they shot at Army helicopters
trying to deliver aid... insanity

Last edited by Catbox (2009-11-20 04:32:37)

Love is the answer

2009-11-20 04:35:18

#4

ghettoperson: Member; +1,943|6936

FEOS wrote:
No. It was caused by a hurricane.

I wanted to say that.

2009-11-20 04:56:47

#5

Mekstizzle: WALKER; +3,611|6908|London, England

Catbox wrote:
The levies were really old in NO from what i have read... hadn't been fixed or upgraded for a lot of years

Yeah I think that's the issue that people are probably talking about more than the fact that alot of people refused to leave the city, or corruption, or the mayor or whatever.

There were loads of reasons why Katrina was a huge fuckup but if it comes out that people didn't do their job of maintaining shit like the flood defences then some people are gonna get buttraped

2009-11-20 05:00:41

#6

Burwhale: Save the BlobFish!; +136|6509|Brisneyland

I dont think anyone was blaming the army for the hurricane itself, more for the flooding that occured. I dont know why the army would have jurisdiction over levies, but apparently that is the case. if the levies were in good order would the flooding be as bad?

edit, I wasnt trying to make an Army bashing thread here. But its a serious allegation, and worthy of discussion.

Last edited by Burwhale (2009-11-20 05:03:38)

2009-11-20 05:37:45

#7

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5645|London, England

Burwhale wrote:
US District Judge Stanwood Duval blamed the US Army Corps of Engineers for failing to maintain the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet (MRGO) and allowing the hurricane's storm surge to breach the city's flood defences.

ATG touched on this in another thread, but I thought it warranted its own thread.

The Australian wrote:
It was a "man-made disaster and everyone in New Orleans knows that", the screenwriter John Biguenet, who lives there, said. His view was bolstered by evidence presented to Judge Duval by Sherwood Gagliano, a former consultant to the corps.

Mr Gagliano said that as the MRGO widened it touched the shore of Lake Borgne to the east, becoming a conduit for floodwaters. He testified that "one of the greatest catastrophes in the history of the US" was predictable and preventable.
Personally I am not familiar with the role the US army plays in this area, and was taken aback when I read about this. Without knowing much more about the issue , I find it hard to blame the Army, but the allegations are so serious, that they have to be looked at.

What do you think of this?

Army Corps of Engineers is not really part of the Army. They're basically an engineering firm run by the federal government that does much of the inspections, upkeep and new work that the state governments can't be bothered to do. Building a new levee? ACE is called in. Dredging a harbor or canal? ACE is called in. They do the dirty work that keeps our nation running.

Now, about that lawsuit, the claimants are blaming ACE for not clearing trash out of storm drains and claiming it's the direct cause of the flooding in New Orleans. Nevermind that New Orleans is under sea level or that the ACE were the ones responsible for making the city habitable at all once it started sinking. Sure, blame them for the trash that could've and should've been picked up by the city and it's citizens. The whole thing is lame.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2009-11-20 05:39:48

#8

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5645|London, England

Mekstizzle wrote:
Catbox wrote:
The levies were really old in NO from what i have read... hadn't been fixed or upgraded for a lot of years
Yeah I think that's the issue that people are probably talking about more than the fact that alot of people refused to leave the city, or corruption, or the mayor or whatever.

There were loads of reasons why Katrina was a huge fuckup but if it comes out that people didn't do their job of maintaining shit like the flood defences then some people are gonna get buttraped

ACE is always spread thin and underfunded. Blame the feds for prioritizing additions to medicare over infrastructure.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2009-11-20 06:11:07

#9

ATG: Banned; +5,233|6816|Global Command

FEOS wrote:
No. It was caused by a hurricane.

The human problem was caused by ineptitude at the state and local levels (see school buses slated for evac purposes sitting in their pens, untasked by Nagin or LA officials).

The CoE had told LA and NO officials long before that a Cat 3 or better storm would likely break the storm walls because that exceeded their design specs.

This is bullshit. Pure and utter bullshit, judicial activism at its worst.

If the army corps had done their jobs the buses would not have been needed.

I've worked for the corps and they are the entity that has the task of dealing with water runoff. They are responsible, period.

2009-11-20 06:17:13

#10

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5645|London, England

ATG wrote:
FEOS wrote:
No. It was caused by a hurricane.

The human problem was caused by ineptitude at the state and local levels (see school buses slated for evac purposes sitting in their pens, untasked by Nagin or LA officials).

The CoE had told LA and NO officials long before that a Cat 3 or better storm would likely break the storm walls because that exceeded their design specs.

This is bullshit. Pure and utter bullshit, judicial activism at its worst.
If the army corps had done their jobs the buses would not have been needed.

I've worked for the corps and they are the entity that has the task of dealing with water runoff. They are responsible, period.

So it's their fault people chose to live below sea level in a flood plain? They're understaffed and underfunded. They can't fix everything nor should they be liable when it's in the City's best interest to make sure that everything is in working order.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2009-11-20 07:12:00

#11

Iconic Irony: Bare Back Rough Rider; +189|5563|San Angelo, TX

Everyone knows George Bush is the guilty party here.

2009-11-20 10:25:59

#12

M.O.A.B: 'Light 'em up!'; +1,220|6509|Escea

ATG wrote:
FEOS wrote:
No. It was caused by a hurricane.

The human problem was caused by ineptitude at the state and local levels (see school buses slated for evac purposes sitting in their pens, untasked by Nagin or LA officials).

The CoE had told LA and NO officials long before that a Cat 3 or better storm would likely break the storm walls because that exceeded their design specs.

This is bullshit. Pure and utter bullshit, judicial activism at its worst.
If the army corps had done their jobs the buses would not have been needed.

I've worked for the corps and they are the entity that has the task of dealing with water runoff. They are responsible, period.

Well, Katrina broke them, so...

2009-11-20 10:27:02

#13

Red Forman: Banned; +402|5687

george bush hates black people

2009-11-20 10:46:47

#14

Iconic Irony: Bare Back Rough Rider; +189|5563|San Angelo, TX

Yo Katrina, I'm happy for you and ima let you finish but the indonesian tsunami had the best destruction of all time.

2009-11-20 10:53:08

#15

SEREMAKER: BABYMAKIN EXPERT √; +2,187|6855|Mountains of NC

all the free shit they got during the looting .......... new nikes, cash registers, tvs, dvd players, jordan sweats ............ bc during an emergency a new pair of nikes and a jordan hoody will save your ass

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg

2009-11-20 11:30:08

#16

Iconic Irony: Bare Back Rough Rider; +189|5563|San Angelo, TX

SEREMAKER wrote:
all the free shit they got during the looting .......... new nikes, cash registers, tvs, dvd players, jordan sweats ............ bc during an emergency a new pair of nikes and a jordan hoody will save your ass

What if they were stealing gortex jackets and rubber boots?

2009-11-20 13:43:38

#17

FatherTed: xD; +3,936|6787|so randum

the whole approach by the army engis was stupid from the beginning - water always wins, and hard engineering is just delaying (and in many cases; intensifying) the problem.

But a hurricane caused the N'Orly flooding.

Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella

2009-11-20 13:46:52

#18

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5645|London, England

FatherTed wrote:
the whole approach by the army engis was stupid from the beginning - water always wins, and hard engineering is just delaying (and in many cases; intensifying) the problem.

But a hurricane caused the N'Orly flooding.

You're right but it's not like they had many options. They didn't say "Hey, this would be a great place to build a city even though it's 17 feet below sea level and right next to a hundred mile long lake". They kind of have to play the hand their dealt and in this case it meant building hardened barriers that would hopefully hold up against a storm. If blame needs to be placed anywhere, it's on the people who decided it was a good idea to buy a home below sea level.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2009-11-20 13:49:47

#19

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6938|USA

Burwhale wrote:
US District Judge Stanwood Duval blamed the US Army Corps of Engineers for failing to maintain the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet (MRGO) and allowing the hurricane's storm surge to breach the city's flood defences.

ATG touched on this in another thread, but I thought it warranted its own thread.

The Australian wrote:
It was a "man-made disaster and everyone in New Orleans knows that", the screenwriter John Biguenet, who lives there, said. His view was bolstered by evidence presented to Judge Duval by Sherwood Gagliano, a former consultant to the corps.

Mr Gagliano said that as the MRGO widened it touched the shore of Lake Borgne to the east, becoming a conduit for floodwaters. He testified that "one of the greatest catastrophes in the history of the US" was predictable and preventable.
Personally I am not familiar with the role the US army plays in this area, and was taken aback when I read about this. Without knowing much more about the issue , I find it hard to blame the Army, but the allegations are so serious, that they have to be looked at.

What do you think of this?

Yes they are to blame. They are also to blame for the flooding in Mississippi, the San Francisco earthquake of 1906, the great Chicago fire, sickle cell disease, genital herpes and mosquitoes.

The whole gulf coast region got flooded, but everyone wants to think it was an attempt to detroy all the black people in New Orleans. Leave it to New Orleans to turn at CAT 5 hurricane into a race issue.

Last edited by lowing (2009-11-20 15:14:55)

2009-11-20 14:09:25

#20

FatherTed: xD; +3,936|6787|so randum

JohnG@lt wrote:
FatherTed wrote:
the whole approach by the army engis was stupid from the beginning - water always wins, and hard engineering is just delaying (and in many cases; intensifying) the problem.

But a hurricane caused the N'Orly flooding.
You're right but it's not like they had many options. They didn't say "Hey, this would be a great place to build a city even though it's 17 feet below sea level and right next to a hundred mile long lake". They kind of have to play the hand their dealt and in this case it meant building hardened barriers that would hopefully hold up against a storm. If blame needs to be placed anywhere, it's on the people who decided it was a good idea to buy a home below sea level.

truth. twas a rock and hard place, and it's not like they could go all chinese and tell the people living there to just fuck off and live somewhere more sensible.

Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella

2009-11-20 14:16:14

#21

Hurricane2k9: Pendulous Sweaty Balls; +1,538|5988|College Park, MD

Iconic Irony wrote:
SEREMAKER wrote:
all the free shit they got during the looting .......... new nikes, cash registers, tvs, dvd players, jordan sweats ............ bc during an emergency a new pair of nikes and a jordan hoody will save your ass
What if they were stealing gortex jackets and rubber boots?

Have you ever head of rubber jordans?

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg

2009-11-20 14:22:55

#22

djphetal: Go Ducks.; +346|6622|Oregon

Poor preparation certainly exacerbated the problems NO and the southern gulf had.
I went to Biloxi, Mississippi a year after the storm to visit my mother's side of the family, and all of them were very critical of the government's management of prevention and relief efforts. Keep in mind most of these people are staunchly conservative and the last people to criticize the Man.

But yeah, a hurricane - a particularly brutal hurricane - caused the problem, not the army.

2009-11-20 14:28:37

#23

SEREMAKER: BABYMAKIN EXPERT √; +2,187|6855|Mountains of NC

Iconic Irony wrote:
SEREMAKER wrote:
all the free shit they got during the looting .......... new nikes, cash registers, tvs, dvd players, jordan sweats ............ bc during an emergency a new pair of nikes and a jordan hoody will save your ass
What if they were stealing gortex jackets and rubber boots?

nothing like standing in wasit high water with a umbrella

2009-11-20 17:09:23

#24

13/f/taiwan: Member; +940|5985

Red Forman wrote:
george bush hates black people

2009-11-20 17:10:15

#25

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5645|London, England

13/f/taiwan wrote:
Red Forman wrote:
george bush hates black people

https://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/o/f/bush_vacation_fishing.jpg

? LMK

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

BF2S Forums Was Hurricane Katrina flooding caused by Army engineers?

The Australian wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Catbox wrote:

Burwhale wrote:

The Australian wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Catbox wrote:

FEOS wrote:

ATG wrote:

FEOS wrote:

ATG wrote:

FEOS wrote:

SEREMAKER wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

Burwhale wrote:

The Australian wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

Iconic Irony wrote:

SEREMAKER wrote:

Iconic Irony wrote:

SEREMAKER wrote:

Red Forman wrote:

13/f/taiwan wrote:

Red Forman wrote:

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