Execution for man condemned by 'bible jury'

2009-11-18 04:07:11

#26

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6942|USA

Mekstizzle wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Obviously it didn't cause an appealable issue, did it? He was convicted based on evidence, not based on Bible passages, people.

The fact that there were Bibles present in the jury room at his initial trial has fuckall to do with the evidence presented at trial and at his numerous required appeals.
I think the main cause for concern is the fact that they were quoting all this religious shit at all, in a courtroom, after being sentenced. It's got nothing to do with the actual trial itself in terms of whether he was guilty or not. It raises issues, especially in a country which prides itself on its constitution and all that shit.

If you want, how would you feel if that story replaced the word Bible with Koran?

Exactly.

Depends, are they looking to kill the guy for being gay, or for talking about sex, or would they be doing so because he is a murderer who needs to be put down?

and the constitution up holds the death penalty

2009-11-18 04:46:47

#27

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7101|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:
Varegg wrote:
Did you participate in the jury FEOS?
No, I didn't.

Varegg wrote:
How can you know that the jury didn't confer with the bible before they found him guilty?
I didn't say anything about conferring with the bible. They are free to do that.

Conviction and sentencing aren't based on what's in the bible. They are based on evidence presented and sentencing guidelines--neither of which are in scripture, as far as I can tell.

Because if they did they would certainly announce it publicly ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2009-11-18 04:48:00

#28

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:
Conviction and sentencing aren't based on what's in the bible. They are based on evidence presented and sentencing guidelines--neither of which are in scripture, as far as I can tell.

Maybe someone should have told the jury that.

One juror even stood up to quote the text directly, saying: "And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death."

Legally thats wrong, could have been manslaughter, self-defence or an accident.
Its usually the dumbest of the dumb who serve on juries, they don't need mind-polluting fruitloopery to distract them.

Fuck Israel

2009-11-18 05:22:32

#29

Shahter: Zee Ruskie; +295|7066|Moscow, Russia

Varegg wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Varegg wrote:
Did you participate in the jury FEOS?
No, I didn't.

Varegg wrote:
How can you know that the jury didn't confer with the bible before they found him guilty?
I didn't say anything about conferring with the bible. They are free to do that.

Conviction and sentencing aren't based on what's in the bible. They are based on evidence presented and sentencing guidelines--neither of which are in scripture, as far as I can tell.
Because if they did they would certainly announce it publicly...

of course they would. the only real things are those that have "law", "regulation", "official statement" or something like that written on 'em. nothing else matters.

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

2009-11-19 04:37:09

#30

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6702|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Conviction and sentencing aren't based on what's in the bible. They are based on evidence presented and sentencing guidelines--neither of which are in scripture, as far as I can tell.
Maybe someone should have told the jury that.
One juror even stood up to quote the text directly, saying: "And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death."
Legally thats wrong, could have been manslaughter, self-defence or an accident.
Its usually the dumbest of the dumb who serve on juries, they don't need mind-polluting fruitloopery to distract them.

/facepalm

He can only be convicted of what he is charged with.

He can only be sentenced according to what the law (not the Bible, or Qur'an, or Torah, or a comic book) says.

What a religious text says is irrelevant. Thus, what someone reads or says from a religious text dealing with those two items is irrelevant, as it has zero impact on either of them.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-11-19 04:43:18

#31

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7101|Nårvei

To me and you it is irrelevant FEOS, by the looks of it it wasn't for the jurors ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2009-11-19 04:52:48

#32

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6702|'Murka

Varegg wrote:
To me and you it is irrelevant FEOS, by the looks of it it wasn't for the jurors ...

Doesn't matter.

It's irrelevant to the law. It could not have impacted conviction or sentencing.

That's all that matters.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-11-19 04:53:50

#33

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7101|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:
Varegg wrote:
To me and you it is irrelevant FEOS, by the looks of it it wasn't for the jurors ...
Doesn't matter.

It's irrelevant to the law. It could not have impacted conviction or sentencing.

That's all that matters.

We all agree it shouldn't but how can you know it didn't?

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2009-11-19 05:03:57

#34

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6702|'Murka

Varegg wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Varegg wrote:
To me and you it is irrelevant FEOS, by the looks of it it wasn't for the jurors ...
Doesn't matter.

It's irrelevant to the law. It could not have impacted conviction or sentencing.

That's all that matters.
We all agree it shouldn't but how can you know it didn't?

I've already explained that.

The evidence presented didn't come out of the Bible.

The charges levied didn't come out of the Bible.

The arguments from the lawyers didn't come out of the Bible.

The sentencing requirements didn't come out of the Bible.

The Bible's usage in the jury room has as much relevance to the conviction or sentencing as someone referring to a comic book.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-11-19 05:13:01

#35

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7101|Nårvei

If you say so ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2009-11-19 05:20:54

#36

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6702|'Murka

Varegg wrote:
If you say so ...

It's the way the law works here, Varegg.

It's not FEOS saying so.

Or are you arguing that any of the charges, evidence, lawyers' arguments, and sentencing guidelines came out of the Bible?

If so, you've got some 'splainin' to do.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-11-19 05:25:10

#37

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7101|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:
Varegg wrote:
If you say so ...
It's the way the law works here, Varegg.

It's not FEOS saying so.

Or are you arguing that any of the charges, evidence, lawyers' arguments, and sentencing guidelines came out of the Bible?

If so, you've got some 'splainin' to do.

I'm not saying the charges, evidence, lawyers or sentencing guidelines came out of the bible ... I just expressed concerns about the deciding factors of the jury may have ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2009-11-19 05:31:48

#38

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6702|'Murka

Varegg wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Varegg wrote:
If you say so ...
It's the way the law works here, Varegg.

It's not FEOS saying so.

Or are you arguing that any of the charges, evidence, lawyers' arguments, and sentencing guidelines came out of the Bible?

If so, you've got some 'splainin' to do.
I'm not saying the charges, evidence, lawyers or sentencing guidelines came out of the bible ... I just expressed concerns about the deciding factors of the jury may have ...

Those factors would've been there whether a Bible was present or not. It's not like you put a Bible in the room and suddenly people are overcome with the Holy Spirit and start speaking in tongues, taking up snakes, tapping each other on the foreheads and shouting "be healed!"

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-11-19 05:49:13

#39

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7101|Nårvei

I get your point but I also think you are intelligent enough to grasp mine

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2009-11-19 05:56:02

#40

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6702|'Murka

Varegg wrote:
I get your point but I also think you are intelligent enough to grasp mine

If the Bible being in the jury room had the ability to impact the application of the law in any way, I would have concern.

I believe your point is that you think it did. In that, I have grasped your point. My point is that your point is invalid, that it did not--and cannot--happen.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

2009-11-19 06:08:03

#41

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7101|Nårvei

FEOS wrote:
Varegg wrote:
I get your point but I also think you are intelligent enough to grasp mine
If the Bible being in the jury room had the ability to impact the application of the law in any way, I would have concern.

I believe your point is that you think it did. In that, I have grasped your point. My point is that your point is invalid, that it did not--and cannot--happen.

Now you are not reading what I said previously ... I didn't say I think they were influenced by the bible, I said I expressed concerns their decision might have been in light of their religious mumbo jumbo ...

And you really can't exclude anything when it comes to religion ... it should not happen but still it may very well happen on odd occasions ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2009-11-19 06:20:45

#42

Pug: UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate; +652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France

So you didn't say they were influenced by the bibile, but you are concerned that they might have made a decision that is the exact opposite of their religious beliefs?

Isn't that the same thing?

2009-11-19 06:21:37

#43

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:
He can only be convicted of what he is charged with.

Obviously, but if the jury choose to use the bible definition of murder instead of the legal one then he could have been misconvicted.
Seems you facepalmed as you misunderstood.

It's irrelevant to the law. It could not have impacted conviction or sentencing.

It clearly did, since the jurors were reading out bits of hit.

And if its irrelevant what exactly is a copy of the bible doing in the jury room?
Juries in the UK aren't usually allowed anything but their own notes and any documents they request from the Judge.

Fuck Israel

2009-11-19 06:21:41

#44

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7101|Nårvei

Pug wrote:
So you didn't say they were influenced by the bibile, but you are concerned that they might have made a decision that is the exact opposite of their religious beliefs?

Isn't that the same thing?

Read again ... that was not what I said ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2009-11-19 08:27:06

#45

Pug: UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate; +652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France

Because I spelled bible wrong? lol

Varegg wrote:
I would be very concerned if I thought the jury was influenced by the bible in their decision ...

Varegg wrote:
Now you are not reading what I said previously ... I didn't say I think they were influenced by the bible, I said I expressed concerns their decision might have been in light of their religious mumbo jumbo ...

And you really can't exclude anything when it comes to religion ... it should not happen but still it may very well happen on odd occasions ...

I think what you said is you are concerned that the jury was influenced by their religious beliefs in their decision. Ultimately it comes from the bible, either in the jury room or outside the jury room - does it not? Perhaps you can clarify why this makes a difference.

Secondly, unrelated item: who cares about whether the jury was influenced in this matter? I'm pretty sure the convicted killer didn't hold a bible in his hand when he committed murder. The dude was found guilty.

The only items that matter are:

1) was the ruling correct?
2) was the punishment appropriate?

A mistrial due to religious malfeasance is #1. But from your statements, either the juror selection process failed because they were influenced by going to church outside of the courtroom...or the jury process failed to eliminate outside interference...or the ruling was correct...or the ruling was correct and the punishment was appropriate.

2009-11-19 13:47:42

#46

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX

who cares about whether the jury was influenced in this matter?

Anyone who wants a fair trial in the future.
If jurors are free to invoke Harry Potter, Fox News or the internet rather than the law and the evidence of the case then no-one will get a just trial.

Fuck Israel

2009-11-19 14:52:47

#47

Pug: UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate; +652|6833|Texas - Bigger than France

Dilbert_X wrote:
who cares about whether the jury was influenced in this matter?
Anyone who wants a fair trial in the future.
If jurors are free to invoke Harry Potter, Fox News or the internet rather than the law and the evidence of the case then no-one will get a just trial.

The jury selection process is specifically outlined by law not by Harry Potter. Do you know anything about how a jury is selected? It's a lot different then overseas.

Questions like "what do you think about the death penalty"?

Feel free to explain how that works within your uninformed point of view.

Feel free to actually answer my questions: was the ruling correct? was the punishment appropriate?

2009-11-19 23:00:07

#48

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX

This is not related to the jury selection process but the deliberation process.
But if a juror pulled out a copy of 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire' and started quoting stuff from it during the deliberations would you not be at all concerned?
What if it were the Koran.
"Hmm it says here if he doesn't have a full beard he is unworthy. We should convict him of murder so Allah can judge him after he's been executed"?

I don't know if the verdict was correct or the punishment appropriate, on this information he should have been retried.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-11-19 23:05:33)

Fuck Israel

2009-11-19 23:27:11

#49

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7101|Nårvei

The issue Pug is that when you enter the jury room for discussions you set aside your religious believes, your cultural preferences and all other knowledge that may cloud your judgement ... the evidence and that alone is all that matter ...

If I think the jury brought religion into the equation, either Christianity, Islam or whatever that is a concern ... it should not happen and prolly it didn't happen but it could have ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2009-11-20 04:21:23

#50

FEOS: Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate; +1,182|6702|'Murka

Varegg wrote:
FEOS wrote:
Varegg wrote:
I get your point but I also think you are intelligent enough to grasp mine
If the Bible being in the jury room had the ability to impact the application of the law in any way, I would have concern.

I believe your point is that you think it did. In that, I have grasped your point. My point is that your point is invalid, that it did not--and cannot--happen.
Now you are not reading what I said previously ... I didn't say I think they were influenced by the bible, I said I expressed concerns their decision might have been in light of their religious mumbo jumbo ...

And you really can't exclude anything when it comes to religion ... it should not happen but still it may very well happen on odd occasions ...

And what I said was that their religious views would have been their religious views regardless of whether a Bible was in the room or not.

So you would discriminate against people because of their religious beliefs? Prevent them from participating in their civil duties because you disagree with their belief system?

That's illegal, my friend.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular

BF2S Forums Execution for man condemned by 'bible jury'

Mekstizzle wrote:

FEOS wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Varegg wrote:

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Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

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FEOS wrote:

Pug wrote:

Varegg wrote:

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Dilbert_X wrote:

Varegg wrote:

FEOS wrote:

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