BF2S Forums Gitmo - CIA tortured people they knew were innocent

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

So what's worse? Waterboarding your captives in private or beheading them on tv?

The thing is they're supposed to be evil terrorists and the US is supposed to be a 1st world democracy.
Or you can both be evil terrorists, up to you.

Abducting and torturing someone you know is innocent just to keep your paperwork in order is fucked up frankly.

Fighting wars in a civilized manner as the European aristocracy wished does wonders when you're faced with an enemy that doesn't abide by the same archaic rules of chivalry. War is fought to be won. It's dirty, it's messy and it's bloody.

Macbeth wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjCzfGm0njM

Ftr he was saying torture is not right and there is nothing to debate (under certain conditions etc). He wasn't actually saying "we don't torture". Context.

JohnG@lt wrote:

War is fought to be won. It's dirty, it's messy and it's bloody.

Didn't Hitler say something like that, or Tojo?

Macbeth wrote:

It's the truth. Winning is more important than playing fair when it comes to war.

Then why have countries agreed to various treaties, the Geneva convention, Convention on Torture for example?

Or maybe we should still be using dum-dum bullets, poison gas, firing the body parts of executed prisoners into cities along with rats infected with bubonic plague if it means we win?

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-10-12 19:00:46)

Dilbert_X wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

It's the truth. Winning is more important than playing fair when it comes to war.

Then why have countries agreed to various treaties, the Geneva convention, Convention on Torture for example?

Or maybe we should still be using dum-dum bullets, poison gas, firing the body parts of executed prisoners into cities along with rats infected with bubonic plague if it means we win?

Because the countries that decide to bring up that convention every time a war happens that they have no stake in are more ball less than Bob Barker's dog.

Now you may look at from the "That's horrible, killing all those people" but I look at it from the "Well in order to protect my interest, my standard of living, the lives of my family here and abroad, the lives of my future children and everything else I love, I would sacrifice the lives of people I will never see or meet, and who would do the same thing to me in an instant."

Now you may think "macbeth that's insane, you're a selfish person." I think it's pretty insane myself to sacrifice the lives of your own people just so that other people who will never like or respect you can live happily.

I guess that makes me a sociopath.

Red Forman wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

It's the truth. Winning is more important than playing fair when it comes to war.

i can assure you when it comes to war, our govt is more interested in saving face than winning.

Ain't that a bitch.

Last edited by Macbeth (2009-10-12 19:10:36)

Red Forman wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Ain't that a bitch.

no.  i had no interest in carpet bombing a village.

Churchill was cool about it.

but Americans are evil.

Macbeth wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Blogs and op-eds do not a prosecution make.

Investigate. Then prosecute based on the evidence.

Picking up random people and then torturing them to see if they've done anything likewise.

Funny that you're always full of legalese when it comes to Americans, but fuzzy-wuzzies not so much.

Protect your own.

More like follow the laws as they apply.

That's the part Dilbert conveniently ignores, even though it has been pounded into his skull numerous times.

This particular case could be tried under US domestic law. The situation of detaining someone on the battlefield falls under the Geneva Convention. Two completely different sets of laws apply.

If the person(s) did what was alleged, then they should be prosecuted, as they violated US law.

Last edited by FEOS (2009-10-12 19:46:11)

Dilbert_X wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Because the countries that decide to bring up that convention every time a war happens that they have no stake in are more ball less than Bob Barker's dog.

Thats strange, during WW2 the Allies stuck to the GC while their opponents didn't, and then prosecuted the Germans and Japanese for their crimes. No-one outside was involved in any of that.

That's strange. Anyone on the Allied side who violated the GC was prosecuted. Just like now.

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Because whiny bitches in the rear are terrified by the site of blood and want everyone to fight with pillows and strong words.

Hard luck, your country signed the conventions, there was a reason for it, maybe you should think about it.

See above.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Because the countries that decide to bring up that convention every time a war happens that they have no stake in are more ball less than Bob Barker's dog.

Thats strange, during WW2 the Allies stuck to the GC while their opponents didn't, and then prosecuted the Germans and Japanese for their crimes. No-one outside was involved in any of that.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Because whiny bitches in the rear are terrified by the site of blood and want everyone to fight with pillows and strong words.

Hard luck, your country signed the conventions, there was a reason for it, maybe you should think about it.

The purpose of war is to kill your enemy.

I thought the purpose of war was to defeat the enemy and prevent them fighting you. You seem to have lost sight of the objective there in your excitement about killing.

Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were all legit military targets and were all within the bounds of the GC. 

Dilbert_X wrote:

Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were all legit military targets and were all within the bounds of the GC.

They weren't, but thats a whole other discussion.

150,000 people died on the order of Churchill.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Because the countries that decide to bring up that convention every time a war happens that they have no stake in are more ball less than Bob Barker's dog.

Thats strange, during WW2 the Allies stuck to the GC while their opponents didn't, and then prosecuted the Germans and Japanese for their crimes. No-one outside was involved in any of that.

'Justice' is upheld by the victors. Same as in any other war in history. The Americans and Brits firebombed entire cities and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians while leaving millions homeless. Today, instead of revering FDR and Churchill like we do, they would be charged with war crimes by their own media and forced to resign in disgrace. Hard to win a war when the media is who dictates what is right and wrong.

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Because whiny bitches in the rear are terrified by the site of blood and want everyone to fight with pillows and strong words.

Hard luck, your country signed the conventions, there was a reason for it, maybe you should think about it.

I wouldn't mind if we pulled out. It's not as if our enemies pay any attention to it when they are raping our servicewomen captives and beheading the rest. The Vietnamese did a real good job taking care of our POWs too.

Dilbert_X wrote:

The purpose of war is to kill your enemy.

I thought the purpose of war was to defeat the enemy and prevent them fighting you. You seem to have lost sight of the objective there in your excitement about killing.

No. That's bedwetter mentality. If you're going to fight someone you make sure they are defeated forever. This isn't medieval warfare where they pick a field, go out in the middle, shake hands, conduct a battle and then return to their castles to lick their wounds until a future engagement. Sorry to break your heart.

other countries, especially in Europe did as bad if not worse.

We know that, thats not the point here. The US is supposedly above all that.

Hard to win a war when the media is who dictates what is right and wrong.

It isn't the media, its the treaties you've signed up to.

No. That's bedwetter mentality. If you're going to fight someone you make sure they are defeated forever.

So why not just nuke anywhere that seems mildly annoying?
Just don't blub when it happens to you.