Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st … 83,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fouad_Maho … n_Al_Rabia

THERE is no longer any doubt that torture was used against prisoners at Guantanamo Bay under George W. Bush. The president's own appointee who headed the military commissions, Susan Crawford, said so in January.

The torture was not of the sadistic comic-book type; it was rather the torture that destroys the soul and the body without leaving any physical marks: countless days and nights of sleep deprivation, freezing or heating naked prisoners, shackling and tying them in stress positions, taking people to the edge of dying by drowning, sexual abuse. The Bush administration argued that these were the only ways to get vital intelligence and that they were carried out only on the "worst of the worst".

And so the debate is about whether torture is moral and whether it works.

There is, however, another danger of using torture, especially against people captured in distant places with scarcely any evidence against them: torture risks becoming the means to determine guilt or innocence. And if you have captured an innocent man and tortured him only to find he is innocent after all, what do you do then? Does Dick Cheney, the former vice-president, admit that many of these victims were not "the worst of the worst" but simply innocents caught in the wrong place at the wrong time and tortured nonetheless?

Until now, this scenario has only been a fear. Now we know it was a reality. An astonishing, and largely ignored, judicial ruling issued on September 17 in the case of one Fouad al-Rabiah told us that the US government knowingly tortured an innocent man to procure a false confession.

We know that an American interrogator, operating under the authority of the US government, said the following words to a detainee: "There is nothing against you. But there is no innocent person here. So, you should confess to something so you can be charged and sentenced and serve your sentence and then go back to your family and country, because you will not leave this place innocent."

That's from page 41 of the court memorandum and order, releasing al-Rabiah.

Al-Rabiah was captured in Pakistan in December 2001. He had an unlikely history for a top al-Qa'ida commander and strategist. He had spent 20 years at a desk job for Kuwait Airways. He was also a humanitarian volunteer for Muslim refugees. Yet informants had described him as an al-Qa'ida supporter and confidant of Osama bin Laden, and he was whisked away to Guantanamo. The informants' accounts were riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions. In her ruling, judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly noted that "the only consistency with respect to (these) allegations is that they repeatedly change over time".

The one incriminating statement was given by another inmate after he had been subjected to sleep deprivation and coercion. So the only option left to prove that al-Rabiah had not been captured by mistake was his own confession.

The interrogators' notes, forced into the open by the court, gave the game away. In the judge's words, although "al-Rabiah's interrogators ultimately extracted confessions from him", they "never believed his confessions". In fact, "the evidence in the record during this period consists mainly of an assessment made by an intelligence analyst that al-Rabiah should not have been detained".
So much for the 'CIA says they are guilty, they're the worst of the worst, we must trust them' theory?

Shouldn't someone in the CIA be prosecuted for torturing someone - purely to cover their own ass?

Finally, democracy works:
http://www.expose-the-war-profiteers.or … 090917.pdf

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-10-11 21:55:19)

Fuck Israel
ruisleipa
Member
+149|6509|teh FIN-land
fuck man, this isn't excactly a surprise is it? More like bleeding obvious.
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6968|Disaster Free Zone
Death is still a valid sentence for war crimes is it not?
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7003
They work above the law afaik.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6968|Disaster Free Zone

Cybargs wrote:

They work above the law afaik.
rammunition
Fully Loaded
+143|6148
just shows that :-

America = Evil!
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5645|London, England

rammunition wrote:

just shows that :-

America = Evil!
https://yaflamingalah.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/yawn.jpg
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Hakei
Banned
+295|6282
Releasing an innocent man leads to everyone suspecting that no one in there is guilty, the government hurts a few people in order to contain a large number of prisoners. People get stuff wrong, he may have been innocent - the consequences for releasing an innocent person could have been greater than making him guilty.

Way above all of your heads, do you really think news sources would get complete access to all of the information regarding the prison with the most dangerous convicts alive? Methinks there's a lot more to it than what the news sources state.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Blogs and op-eds do not a prosecution make.

Investigate. Then prosecute based on the evidence.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6510|Escea

rammunition wrote:

just shows that :-

America = Evil!
*cough* Northern Ireland *cough*
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6868|SE London

DrunkFace wrote:

Death is still a valid sentence for war crimes is it not?
No. It isn't.

FEOS wrote:

Blogs and op-eds do not a prosecution make.

Investigate. Then prosecute based on the evidence.
This.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2009-10-12 12:45:20)

Benzin
Member
+576|6285
CIA is the one part of the US government that needs to be cleaned out from top to bottom and rebuilt. Honestly, I'd much rather let the FBI handle all of this kind of stuff. Them I at least trust.
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7055

JohnG@lt wrote:

rammunition wrote:

just shows that :-

America = Evil!
http://yaflamingalah.files.wordpress.co … 2/yawn.jpg
Yeah, yawn. This is so 5 years ago.


It's amazing how we are chasing down nazi guards from WW2 but CBF with pursuing this.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5873

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5645|London, England

BN wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

rammunition wrote:

just shows that :-

America = Evil!
http://yaflamingalah.files.wordpress.co … 2/yawn.jpg
Yeah, yawn. This is so 5 years ago.


It's amazing how we are chasing down nazi guards from WW2 but CBF with pursuing this.
I think chasing down nazi guards is stupid.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|7061|Noizyland

CapnNismo wrote:

CIA is the one part of the US government that needs to be cleaned out from top to bottom and rebuilt. Honestly, I'd much rather let the FBI handle all of this kind of stuff. Them I at least trust.
Americans are already worried about the current American administration getting too Communist, I don't want to see the reaction if Obama starts suggesting Perestroika.

I thought that this was a pretty widely known fact that possible terrorists were captured and tortured simply to find out if they were terrorists. Their innocence was determined by whether they could proove that they were not terrorists, completely flipping morality and justice on it's head. I thought that's why people had the problem with Gitmo in the first place.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6440|what

FEOS wrote:

Blogs and op-eds do not a prosecution make.

Investigate. Then prosecute based on the evidence.
Good advice.

"There is nothing against you. But there is no innocent person here. So, you should confess to something so you can be charged and sentenced and serve your sentence and then go back to your family and country, because you will not leave this place innocent."

That's from page 41 of the court memorandum and order, releasing al-Rabiah.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

Blogs and op-eds do not a prosecution make.

Investigate. Then prosecute based on the evidence.
Picking up random people and then torturing them to see if they've done anything likewise.

Funny that you're always full of legalese when it comes to Americans, but fuzzy-wuzzies not so much.
Fuck Israel
Red Forman
Banned
+402|5687
practice practice practice
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5873

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Blogs and op-eds do not a prosecution make.

Investigate. Then prosecute based on the evidence.
Picking up random people and then torturing them to see if they've done anything likewise.

Funny that you're always full of legalese when it comes to Americans, but fuzzy-wuzzies not so much.
Protect your own.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

Macbeth wrote:

Protect your own.
Even if they're criminals?
Fuck Israel
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5873

Dilbert_X wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

Protect your own.
Even if they're criminals?
Just don't like the idea of choosing non-American interest over American interest and not fond of the idea of making people do our dirty work then punishing them for it.

I'm sorta crazy.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5645|London, England
So what's worse? Waterboarding your captives in private or beheading them on tv?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5873

JohnG@lt wrote:

So what's worse? Waterboarding your captives in private or beheading them on tv?
Waterboarding, Americans do it. Damned Savages we are.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

So what's worse? Waterboarding your captives in private or beheading them on tv?
The thing is they're supposed to be evil terrorists and the US is supposed to be a 1st world democracy.
Or you can both be evil terrorists, up to you.

Abducting and torturing someone you know is innocent just to keep your paperwork in order is fucked up frankly.
Fuck Israel

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