lowing wrote:
Nope, not closed minded at all, I have read, evaluated, a reject liberalism. They only way to prosperity is through personal responsibility. Not through the siphoning someone elses efforts.
How exactly do you yourself prosper? Unless you are self employed, and employ no one, then at one point or another, you rely on someone for something to aid your life in living as comfortably as you do... bear with me.
We are no longer cave men. It is not simply solitary survival. WE now have a infinitely complex global society which relies on eachother.
I doubt you build your own cars from scratch. I doubt you grow/kill all your food. Now, let's say all of us "lazy" welfare surfers, deadbeats, and liberals, instead all lived up to our potential and worked our hardest.
Who would fill the remedial low end jobs who keep the grocery stores filled? who are the boxers in a factory shipping warehouse? We need the people you so loath to maintain a balance in this country. Holy god I know I just gave and will further give you a shit ton of ammunition right here. But before you rightfully blast the living shit out of me for that, continue to bear with me.
The simple truth is is that many, many people are not as intelligent as you or even I. IF we were a society of doctors and engineers, someone would have to cover the low end of the society, or... there wouldn't be a society. No person with a mind capable of being a doctor or an engineer would maintain a grocery bagger or shelf stocker job and stay sane or entertained enough to keep the job.
With the less intelligent, comes the less responsible. With these people, comes the workers who fill the Mcjobs so more capable people wont have to if it were a society of highly intelligent people. By you, living as you do, you have come to rely on these people for your own level of comfortable living, directly or vicariously.
Look at it this way... Do you feel that the mentally handicapped, trully mentally slow people, deserve no assistance? just, fuck em? I doubt you do, but where do we draw the line?
Yes, It will be easy for you to say "wow, that's a really irresponsible way of excusing lazy people" Maybe. but I must state, and this is important to my point
THIS is not the way I think about Social welfare, this is just ONE broad example of where an exception (not a rule) to your rule can be derived.TO live the life you do, you need the lesser people to do remedial jobs to keep your life in the level of comfort you do. These people ARE the fuckups, the druggies, and if they were to succeed, who would fill their place? Granted, there will always be a wave of failures to replace any achiever who climbs the economic ladder. The point is, is those people are there. On one hand, you loathe them, on the other, you, in a way, rely on their services, and were they to right themselves, you or someone like you would have to take their place, or the job will not get done. They are the byproduct of a society with freedoms. That previous sentence is a whole other debate right there. Should you surrender your monetary freedoms for the freedoms of others?... well... maybe that is still this debate... anyway...
Would you just want them shot in the head? well... heh... maybe you do. But for a country to remain free and a sane country, this is not an option. Further, alot of these people were raised in a fucked up way. No, this is not some crutch I plan to pass out to everyone who says "daddy was mean and mommy was a bitch, GIVE ME MONEY" But there exists intelligent people who have been incestually fucked by half of their male family members, left alone, and now are a member of the dregs of a society you have no tolerance for.
If that were to happen to you, I doubt you'd be much better off than them. Yes, this didn't happen to all those out there leeching the welfare system. But you must see that alot of them, who cannot cope with various problems, or are possibly raked with physical ailments, need help.
----
Maybe This all based upon the proportions we believe in. If it were say.... 75% of the people on welfare are just lazy, I would agree with your disposition. But I have read that the people on welfare, who are there for no good reason, and abusing it, are in the minority by a healthy margin.
The same, I feel, would apply to people in need of public healthcare.
Now, if you are still saying that you just don't think it's right to tax you to help legitimately needy people, then that is a bit selfish. Granted you earned it, but again I refer back to the beginning of THIS post, you won't help the people who are a part of the foundation to which your comfortable lifestyle rests and depends upon? So odd. I am not sure if that is what you are saying...
Maybe this isn't worded well, and I know I gave you alot to use against me. But that, to me, is how a real PRODUCTIVE debate goes. As you know, nothing is black and white, with the whole grey area, comes an exception or example which defies our most seemingly concrete convictions, and only a fool would deny that. By admitting to these cracks in the theory, it is much more respectable, and open-minded. I don't see you doing that often, if at all Lowing. NOt that you aren't respectable for not doing so, but that is why so many people dismiss you as a nazi, racist, etc. It's easy to see you are intolerant and unwavering in your ideas. No matter how fool proof, every theory or belief, will always have examples that pull said theory into question.
We here, or at least I, feel that you are totally unwilling to ride with any idea that is, on the surface, contradictory to your political dogma.
Like I said, I tipped the shit out of my hand, blast away. I am giving you examples, definitely flawed examples, but they do contain serious questions that too expose flaws in your beliefs as well. At least, I think it does.
*sigh* I just know I said too much, and in any attempt to shore up what i'd like to be a 10 page response, really pissed on the validity of my argument.
Knowing your forum personality, I highly doubt you'll give me any leeway on that. haha. Yeah, I probably lost it with this post.
Anyway, just consider it. Play devil's advocate with yourself with these ideas.
