That's not faith, that's behavioral conditioning.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
My thought is, I have no idea. I am not able to peek into the minds of animals, nor or they able to convey their thoughts in regards to faith. They may have faith that I will feed them tonight, which is why they stay at my home, but I don't know.Yeticus Rex wrote:
Another page of unresponsiveness goes by. Come on guys, no matter what side of the issue you are on, give this some thought.Yeticus Rex wrote:
This question bears repeating.
Dude! You are so BUSTED!wannabe_tank_whore wrote:
The mishkan you refer to is only the portable temple Moses built. Mikdash refers to the temple King Solomon built. Thus each temple has a different name. Ezekiel was prophesying about the future, eternal Temple.Vic42 wrote:
Did you read the text in your link? It says "I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them". That, my friend, is the Temple. In Hebrew it says "mishcani", "my dwelling". It isn't the least bit ambiguous; the Jews are first told to build a portable Mishcan in the desert after leaving Egypt, and the Bible has detailed instructions. When the Kingdom was established with Jerusalem as its capitol, the first Temple was built to take the place of the portable Mischan; the Bible says God dwelled there. Starting in chapter 40, Ezekiel gives three whole chapters of the details of the third temple as he envisioned it.wannabe_tank_whore wrote:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2037:26-28&version=31
No temple mentioned in those verses. You 'have unquestioningly accepted what you have been told' about this.
But if you intrepret this to mean the Messiah will build the 3rd temple then how about when Jesus said He'll leave but send His Spirit to dwell in them? 1CO 6:19 "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?" So there's your Messiah's temple built by Christ.
JaMDuDe said "Dont forget that prophets knew about jesus coming hundreds of years before he came." That is clearly not correct, and I've cited chapter and verse from Prophets that contradict that claim. The best answer you can come up with is that Jesus is coming back to finish the job some day. "The check is in the mail".
So you look for nits.
"Mishcan" means dwelling or sanctuary. I figured you were going to argue that Ezekiel did not mean sanctuary as a physical building, so I pointed out a cosistent pattern in the Bible where "Mishcan" referrs to a physical building. Ezekiel is clearly talking about a physical building in Jerusalem. The Temple has many names, and what I actually said was "the first Temple was built to take the place of the portable Mischan". So your nit about my using the term "Mishcan" to refer to the Temple isn't even an accurate quote.
You were wrong, because your linked quote did not support your argument; and you are wrong, because you can't even nit-pick accurately.wannabe_tank_whore wrote:
How was I wrong about Ezekiel when you were the one who can't even get the Hebew correct?
Keep looking, you missed it.wannabe_tank_whore wrote:
First, Olam Haba is an intrepretation and it doesn't affect 'anyone'. It is only for Jews.Vic42 wrote:
In case you were wondering, Jews believe that anyone who lives a moral life can have a place in "Olam HaBa", the world to come. Islam, I believe, is a little more narrow, teaching respect for Jews and Christians as fellow descendents of Abraham and followers of Allah.
Yes, there are quotes from the Koran all over the map, but I wasn't suggesting that we take them as a model of how to treat others.wannabe_tank_whore wrote:
Second, Islam is very clear on what to do to Jews and Christians:. . .
Suprisingly, JaMDuDe does get the point:
Other major religions don't portray God as being a cruel SoB, with an eternity of torture in store for all non-believers. But Christianity holds as a central tenet that everybody else gets unending grief after death, no matter if they lived a good life.JaMDuDe wrote:
If Jews are right we go to heaven if we live good lives. If Islam is right we go to heaven if we live good lives. If buddhist are right we just continue the circle of life.
Ah, you are getting to the root of the question. When I asked about "evolving with the ability (capacity) for faith", I was talking about faith in something that has not been detected by your 5 senses (intangible). Belief comes IF your faith was confirmed by one or more of your 5 senses. Some people believe(d) because they did sense God, others remain faithful in God, even though they haven't sensed God (yet), and there still are others who have no faith or belief in God, whether because they have not sensed Him, even if they had faith in Him in the past. From what we have seen from animal behavior though, their reactions and instincts has been based on their 5 senses (specifically, mammals) and nothing beyond that.Marconius wrote:
This concept can't be measured, as we've established no communicative link between us and lower animals. What type of faith, though? Faith in a deity or faith as in absolute trust? Certain forms of instinct can revolve around trust in the non-human world, or can at least be perceived as such. The need for absolute trust in order to survive probably increased as our brains developed and adapted to our surroundings. Faith in deities came from the need for reassurance and comfort when humans confronted death, or at least started to ask the fundamental "Why am I here?" question.Yeticus Rex wrote:
"Are humans the first animals to evolve with the ability for faith?"
Anyone care to answer? And please, instinct and faith are two separate abilities.
Another page of unresponsiveness goes by. Come on guys, no matter what side of the issue you are on, give this some thought.
Agreed. Now I will rely on science to prove in the future that they (specifically, mammals other than human) do not have the capacity for faith once they find ways to communicate. As for fish, amphibians, reptiles and birds......that will be a moot point.It's too hard to really determine this, as humans want to personify everything to bring it up to their level. Until we can really communicate with animals without the hindrance of anthropological personification, it's a moot point.
Let me inject some further reading for anyone who is interested.....
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/dialogues/Faith … inga1.html
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/dialogues/Faith … inga1.html
Uh, no. I don't believe in that. Following the 10 C's is the central tenet.Vic42 wrote:
Other major religions don't portray God as being a cruel SoB, with an eternity of torture in store for all non-believers. But Christianity holds as a central tenet that everybody else gets unending grief after death, no matter if they lived a good life.
i agree....thank you, you have to be willing to see like i have said before...if you dont want to find Him you will never....JaMDuDe wrote:
Gunslinger u cant understand it. Your asking God to come through a closed door. You cant understand it unless u open up your heart to Him. He is there.
....not the brightest choice
Last edited by siciliano732 (2006-04-12 15:26:54)
Thats the point, I don't know, and without the ability to read animals thoughts through communication or otherwise, I never will. Who am I to say animals can't have faith?Yeticus Rex wrote:
That's not faith, that's behavioral conditioning.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
My thought is, I have no idea. I am not able to peek into the minds of animals, nor or they able to convey their thoughts in regards to faith. They may have faith that I will feed them tonight, which is why they stay at my home, but I don't know.Yeticus Rex wrote:
Another page of unresponsiveness goes by. Come on guys, no matter what side of the issue you are on, give this some thought.
I'l like you to explain why we should trust some random from 2000 years ago on the matter (not Jesus, the gospel-writers).JaMDuDe wrote:
Id like to see you explain miracles. The ones where they know werent hoaxes or just an accident. How about demon possesions? People with no mental issues at all or on any drugs...you explain that.JaMDuDe wrote:
No its because ive looked at other religions and none of them compare to what Jesus did, the prophets who knew of him hundred of years before he came, America was based on christianity and it is now the richest, happiest, and most powerful country in the world. Billions of people have seen miracles, demon possesions, and have seen what God can do in life. And christians go to heaven in most other major religions.
If you believe you are something, then that is what you are. If you think you are possessed by the devil, then you are. Th devil and the lord only affect your mind. If you willingly reject them then they will leave.
Can we have a NEUTRAL source here? Ot at least you have to present sources from both sides.
'Richest?' Yes. This has ABSOULTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. In fact, it became the richest country DESPITE what religion teaches (do not hoard wealth)
'Happiest?' I wouldn't say so. The happier you sould be, the less happy you actually are.
'Billions of people have seen miracles'? By that logic, at least 1 person out of every 6 should have seen a miracle. I certainly haven't (defining a miracle as something that transcends human or scientific expectations. Not miracles of heart, like people surviving unimaginable difficulty etc, we hear of those all the time)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
You might find this article interesting: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/03/30/prayer.study.ap/siciliano732 wrote:
my dad was diagnosed with cancer in 98....did not recieve one bit of treatment, and was prayed over in my church and for 6 years now, he has gone back for check up and there is not one bit of cancer to be traced....what do you call that....
....that is a miracle and a blessing for God.
sorry if you cant accept that.
And enough with the condescending attitude. "I'm sorry if you can't accept that", "i agree....thank you, you have to be willing to see like i have said before...if you dont want to find Him you will never........not the brightest choice"
According to, for example, Christianity, we're pretty much here to see what we make of the world on our own, with very little outside help. Thus, it would be counterproductive for god to come out and take over...not to mention that it would pretty much be like revealing yourself to a colony of ants, and directly demanding their respect. Not much return, huh. Also, according to many, Satan/Lucifer/devil/whatever presented an attractive (to many) alternative of Earth being under the governorship of heaven, but it was rejected in favor of free agency.Y-D-Donut? wrote:
Then why doesnt he does that, or at least a part of it, so we can SEE he exists? What does he has to hide? What is he afraid?unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Though if God exists, he could destroy the universe on a whim, which places him a step above the mythical figure of Chuck Norris. That would certainly change things a bit...Y-D-Donut? wrote:
After all its someones choice to have faith or not. Some do because they belive the stories, some don't because the same reasons I dont. Its all a choice, ur choice. Science, Facts, Reasons, Sence or Faith. No one, not even God himself if he exists, can change that.
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-04-13 00:52:44)
Also the fact it was CANCER says that it might not have had anything to do with prayer. The body has very intricate systems for dealing with runaway mutant cells (as that is what cancers are).Skruples wrote:
You might find this article interesting: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/03/30/prayer.study.ap/siciliano732 wrote:
my dad was diagnosed with cancer in 98....did not recieve one bit of treatment, and was prayed over in my church and for 6 years now, he has gone back for check up and there is not one bit of cancer to be traced....what do you call that....
....that is a miracle and a blessing for God.
sorry if you cant accept that.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
im sorry if i came across condescending, i did not mean to....so i apologize. i will read the article once i get back from classes today....Skruples wrote:
You might find this article interesting: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/03/30/prayer.study.ap/siciliano732 wrote:
my dad was diagnosed with cancer in 98....did not recieve one bit of treatment, and was prayed over in my church and for 6 years now, he has gone back for check up and there is not one bit of cancer to be traced....what do you call that....
....that is a miracle and a blessing for God.
sorry if you cant accept that.
And enough with the condescending attitude. "I'm sorry if you can't accept that", "i agree....thank you, you have to be willing to see like i have said before...if you dont want to find Him you will never........not the brightest choice"
i believe it was cancer, and i believe God did heal my dad, and either way im very greatful to still have him around.
Last edited by siciliano732 (2006-04-13 04:40:09)
Siciliano just proved my main point about the idea of "miracles." His dad's body was able to counteract the cancer...which has been happening a bit more lately (there was a man in Britian who was able to beat it with no treatment, it was in the news a few months ago. I'll post it if I find it). It also really depends on the type of cancer and how early it was diagnosed, and how informed you guys were about cancer in general.
His dad beats cancer, which is a very welcome event even though currently it is still highly improbable (at least until it happens enough in humans that we start generating cancer-beating white blood cells). That's the standard/medical miracle. Attributing prayer (reassurance in faith during events that you cannot control) and divinity to it turns it into a religious miracle.
His dad beats cancer, which is a very welcome event even though currently it is still highly improbable (at least until it happens enough in humans that we start generating cancer-beating white blood cells). That's the standard/medical miracle. Attributing prayer (reassurance in faith during events that you cannot control) and divinity to it turns it into a religious miracle.
Yeah there are those kinds of "miracles" but there are other ones, like people running from a pow camp where there getting torchered and they come up to a mountain they know they cannot get over and they put their head down and they look up and are on the other side. There was one in my church im not 100% sure on all the details but while everyone was praying a homeless guy showed up, they fed him cleaned him up and dropped him off at a homeless shelter and watched him go in. Awhile later they went to check on him and the shelter said nobody ever came through the door. There are a lot of miracles that werent just incredible "chance" like cancer going away.
It is you who has been busted. Mishkan with a 'k'. Or is that just another nit? Or does they're, there, and their mean the same thing?Vic42 wrote:
Dude! You are so BUSTED!
JaMDuDe said "Dont forget that prophets knew about jesus coming hundreds of years before he came." That is clearly not correct, and I've cited chapter and verse from Prophets that contradict that claim. The best answer you can come up with is that Jesus is coming back to finish the job some day. "The check is in the mail".
So you look for nits.
"Mishcan" means dwelling or sanctuary. I figured you were going to argue that Ezekiel did not mean sanctuary as a physical building, so I pointed out a cosistent pattern in the Bible where "Mishcan" referrs to a physical building. Ezekiel is clearly talking about a physical building in Jerusalem. The Temple has many names, and what I actually said was "the first Temple was built to take the place of the portable Mischan". So your nit about my using the term "Mishcan" to refer to the Temple isn't even an accurate quote.
Search for mishkan and mikdash for your answer since you speak fluent hebrew.
http://www.cohen-levi.org/temple_studie … temple.htm
To answer your question I'll ask you one... Where does it say the Messiah will do this? Can you post the verse that says the Messiah will do this?
Nit-pick accurately... you misspelled the word... you stated that the misspelled word meant all temples when it refers to only the portable one. You provide no evidence to your points... hmmm.Vic42 wrote:
You were wrong, because your linked quote did not support your argument; and you are wrong, because you can't even nit-pick accurately.wannabe_tank_whore wrote:
How was I wrong about Ezekiel when you were the one who can't even get the Hebew correct?
Do you have kids? If so, how should you as a father punish your children who disobey? Time-out? A good life? Describe a 'good life' to me.Vic42 wrote:
Yes, there are quotes from the Koran all over the map, but I wasn't suggesting that we take them as a model of how to treat others.wannabe_tank_whore wrote:
Second, Islam is very clear on what to do to Jews and Christians:. . .
Other major religions don't portray God as being a cruel SoB, with an eternity of torture in store for all non-believers. But Christianity holds as a central tenet that everybody else gets unending grief after death, no matter if they lived a good life.
proved your ageJaMDuDe wrote:
Yeah there are those kinds of "miracles" but there are other ones, like people running from a pow camp where there getting torchered and they come up to a mountain they know they cannot get over and they put their head down and they look up and are on the other side. There was one in my church im not 100% sure on all the details but while everyone was praying a homeless guy showed up, they fed him cleaned him up and dropped him off at a homeless shelter and watched him go in. Awhile later they went to check on him and the shelter said nobody ever came through the door. There are a lot of miracles that werent just incredible "chance" like cancer going away.
You are fighting a losing battle here. Open your eyes, please.JaMDuDe wrote:
Yeah there are those kinds of "miracles" but there are other ones, like people running from a pow camp where there getting torchered and they come up to a mountain they know they cannot get over and they put their head down and they look up and are on the other side. There was one in my church im not 100% sure on all the details but while everyone was praying a homeless guy showed up, they fed him cleaned him up and dropped him off at a homeless shelter and watched him go in. Awhile later they went to check on him and the shelter said nobody ever came through the door. There are a lot of miracles that werent just incredible "chance" like cancer going away.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
The homeless guy one does sound kind of stupid but i just said it the wrong way.
did you find the jacket you loaned him laid at some mysterious tombstoneJaMDuDe wrote:
The homeless guy one does sound kind of stupid but i just said it the wrong way.
Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2006-04-13 17:47:47)
yeah i did
Okay....miracles. We can say anythign is a mircale if we want. This is due to the fact that a lot of the things that have happened have been highly improbable. Remember though that just because something is improbably doesn't mean its impossible. The whole idea about "What are the odds that humans were created and evolved from other creatures out of all the other possibilities?" is a useless statement against science. In a lottery someone wins. The person may have had a one in ten-millino shot, but he won. Freak things happen.
The guy with cancer could've been the one in ten-million who won the cancer-resistant lottery. Now I understand that you think god helped him and that your faith got you through it, but that scenario doesn't prove god's existence. There is a very small percantage of people who can fight off cancer naturally, and apparently he was a part of that very small percentage.
and I'm sorry but I have to bring this up again because nobody seemed to have read it the first time:
If god created us, then he created all the ways we think and act. Even freewill is something that he created. With this in mind there is no fair way for him to judge any of us because any flaws or evils he sees in us are evils he made us out of.
Either he created us all or he judges us all, he can't do both and still be a fair judge. Think about it.
The guy with cancer could've been the one in ten-million who won the cancer-resistant lottery. Now I understand that you think god helped him and that your faith got you through it, but that scenario doesn't prove god's existence. There is a very small percantage of people who can fight off cancer naturally, and apparently he was a part of that very small percentage.
and I'm sorry but I have to bring this up again because nobody seemed to have read it the first time:
Okay, people choose to be evil, but you said god created us. Therefore god created us that way. He made our ability to choose. He knows everything we're gonna do, therefore he knows exactly how we're gonna act when he creates us, and in turn he creates some of us and makes us evil. If he can see everything, and he still chooses to create us all, then he creates some of us and endows those people with evil.JaMDuDe wrote:
Silentnoise, people chose to be evil, He doesnt hand evil out then punish them for being bad. I know there is an answer to your question but i dont know it yet. Ive asked this question too. But we do not know everything about everything yet, neither does science. We cannot understand most things, picture a human brain next to the universe. And you want that brain to be able to understand everything. Its not gona work.
If god created us, then he created all the ways we think and act. Even freewill is something that he created. With this in mind there is no fair way for him to judge any of us because any flaws or evils he sees in us are evils he made us out of.
Either he created us all or he judges us all, he can't do both and still be a fair judge. Think about it.
Your giving God the blame for peoples personal choices. God didnt create evil people, he created people and they chose to be evil. I dont think Him knowing people wouldnt choose him was a good enough reason for him not to create us.
him him him
Wow........where's the science to support THAT theory? I will tell you what happens to the ENERGY that you are made up of when you die. As your body decomposes, bacteria and other organisms consume your rotting flesh, providing nutrition (ie, energy) for themselves. The engergy that you were once made of is returned to the earth, in a thousand an one different forms. So, your state of being becomes a healthy colony of bacteria, fungi, plants, worms, etc.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
That while our bodies are flesh, we are beings, in a large part, also comprised of energy. Energy cannot be destroyed, only change forms. When we die, our energy simply changes form and moves on to another state of being. In religious terms that may be called a soul, but I certainly don't believe in God, or heaven and hell.afewje wrote:
so what do u believe....Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
Exactly, there is no proof of your side, but mountains of it that disproves your so called counteractions.
Genesis: Sorry, but this has so much evidence against it that it would be shredded in an instant.
Noah: Again, we know that water did not in fact cover the entire Earth. Religious scholars are now saying that this meant the world as they knew it at the time, but this doesn't change the fact that the Bible says everything was flooded. While given the limited knowledge of the Earth, in its entirety, that would sound reasonable, but it still calls into question the validity of so much of the Bible's writings and how accurate they can really be.
The list goes on and on, but I think I've made my point. If you believe in God, good for you. Just remember that religion is based on faith, and it has to be because most of it can't be proven, and a good deal of it is highly questionable given what science has proven.
I really get bugged when people start touting that science is constantly disproving the existance of God. How? Evolution? I'm Catholic....I believe in God, and that he is responsible for creating life as we know it.........and I ALSO believe in evolution (I'm a biology major, and currently in med school). Why do the two have to be polar opposites. Because of the creation story in the Bible? Here's a hint.......it's a STORY......told to people thousands of years ago, who would have NO IDEA whta the hell evolution was if you tried to explain it to them. I don't consider the Bible to be a historical referance manual to be taken literally without question. Some religious people do.....and I'll be honest, I think they may be misguided in that regard. And then there's the scientists that think science disproves the existance of God. On what basis exactly? However.......these are the extremes..........there are the very religious (like myself) that believe that science and God are actually complimentary...........and there are many scientists (like myself) that feel like the more they learn of science, the more they are convinced of a higher power. Study, for instance, in detail the process of human fertilization. Every odd is AGAINST the sperm finding it's way to the egg.....and that's just the first part of the process. If you really knew everything that had to happen JUST PERFECT in order for a woman to get pregnant, logic would tell you that it should be near impossible for it to happen.......almost like winning the lottery. Yet, billions of people manage to get pregnant.....no such luck with the lotteyr. Clearly we have no shortage of people making babies.
KiL
If he really existed, and had been the merciful, the forgiver, the allmighty, the protector of good and destroyer of evil, why does he lets a 9/11 happen, why does he lets so many people die in a Holocaust.... why does he lets so many bad things happen even when everybody wastes their lives in prayers asking him no to let them happen? im my opinion, he is a creation of manking for not letting us feel so alone in this place. All an illution, a made up thing, and not just god, but every other idol made by man,