Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5593

This showed up on Pat's blog and was linked from MSNBC until they took it down.
On Sept. 1, 1939, 70 years ago, the German Army crossed the Polish frontier. On Sept. 3, Britain declared war.

Six years later, 50 million Christians and Jews had perished. Britain was broken and bankrupt, Germany a smoldering ruin. Europe had served as the site of the most murderous combat known to man, and civilians had suffered worse horrors than the soldiers.

By May 1945, Red Army hordes occupied all the great capitals of Central Europe: Vienna, Prague, Budapest, Berlin. A hundred million Christians were under the heel of the most barbarous tyranny in history: the Bolshevik regime of the greatest terrorist of them all, Joseph Stalin.

What cause could justify such sacrifices?

The German-Polish war had come out of a quarrel over a town the size of Ocean City, Md., in summer. Danzig, 95 percent German, had been severed from Germany at Versailles in violation of Woodrow Wilson’s principle of self-determination. Even British leaders thought Danzig should be returned.

Why did Warsaw not negotiate with Berlin, which was hinting at an offer of compensatory territory in Slovakia? Because the Poles had a war guarantee from Britain that, should Germany attack, Britain and her empire would come to Poland’s rescue.

But why would Britain hand an unsolicited war guarantee to a junta of Polish colonels, giving them the power to drag Britain into a second war with the most powerful nation in Europe?

Was Danzig worth a war? Unlike the 7 million Hong Kongese whom the British surrendered to Beijing, who didn’t want to go, the Danzigers were clamoring to return to Germany.

Comes the response: The war guarantee was not about Danzig, or even about Poland. It was about the moral and strategic imperative “to stop Hitler” after he showed, by tearing up the Munich pact and Czechoslovakia with it, that he was out to conquer the world. And this Nazi beast could not be allowed to do that.

If true, a fair point. Americans, after all, were prepared to use atom bombs to keep the Red Army from the Channel. But where is the evidence that Adolf Hitler, whose victims as of March 1939 were a fraction of Gen. Pinochet’s, or Fidel Castro’s, was out to conquer the world?

After Munich in 1938, Czechoslovakia did indeed crumble and come apart. Yet consider what became of its parts.

The Sudeten Germans were returned to German rule, as they wished. Poland had annexed the tiny disputed region of Teschen, where thousands of Poles lived. Hungary’s ancestral lands in the south of Slovakia had been returned to her. The Slovaks had their full independence guaranteed by Germany. As for the Czechs, they came to Berlin for the same deal as the Slovaks, but Hitler insisted they accept a protectorate.

Now one may despise what was done, but how did this partition of Czechoslovakia manifest a Hitlerian drive for world conquest?

Comes the reply: If Britain had not given the war guarantee and gone to war, after Czechoslovakia would have come Poland’s turn, then Russia’s, then France’s, then Britain’s, then the United States.

We would all be speaking German now.

But if Hitler was out to conquer the world — Britain, Africa, the Middle East, the United States, Canada, South America, India, Asia, Australia — why did he spend three years building that hugely expensive Siegfried Line to protect Germany from France? Why did he start the war with no surface fleet, no troop transports and only 29 oceangoing submarines? How do you conquer the world with a navy that can’t get out of the Baltic Sea?

If Hitler wanted the world, why did he not build strategic bombers, instead of two-engine Dorniers and Heinkels that could not even reach Britain from Germany?

Why did he let the British army go at Dunkirk?

Why did he offer the British peace, twice, after Poland fell, and again after France fell?

Why, when Paris fell, did Hitler not demand the French fleet, as the Allies demanded and got the Kaiser’s fleet? Why did he not demand bases in French-controlled Syria to attack Suez? Why did he beg Benito Mussolini not to attack Greece?

Because Hitler wanted to end the war in 1940, almost two years before the trains began to roll to the camps.

Hitler had never wanted war with Poland, but an alliance with Poland such as he had with Francisco Franco’s Spain, Mussolini’s Italy, Miklos Horthy’s Hungary and Father Jozef Tiso’s Slovakia.

Indeed, why would he want war when, by 1939, he was surrounded by allied, friendly or neutral neighbors, save France. And he had written off Alsace, because reconquering Alsace meant war with France, and that meant war with Britain, whose empire he admired and whom he had always sought as an ally.

As of March 1939, Hitler did not even have a border with Russia. How then could he invade Russia?

Winston Churchill was right when he called it “The Unnecessary War” — the war that may yet prove the mortal blow to our civilization.
http://buchanan.org/blog/did-hitler-want-war-2068

Do you think Pat is trying to revise history or has a valid point? It's an interesting read. Try to keep the racism to a minimum.
MrAnderson
Ghost Town T90/Apache Whore
+99|6006|Aberdeen, Scotland
Afaik, the Germans were unable to re-arm so overtly following the sanctions of Versailles; specifically, they weren't to be allowed to build a strong surface fleet. The submarines were built in secret, and the Siegfried line was built to mirror the French Maginot line.

I'm not so hot on the politics of it, but Hitler obviously wanted to avoid conflict with Britain and her navy; perhaps he felt he could keep control of mainland Europe without being significantly threatened by the British.

The real counter to his argument is the German invasion of Russia; why would he break the peace-agreement if he didn't want more territory? I think the real answer is that he did want to grab as much land as possible to establish his 1000-year Reich, he just didn't have a clear plan of action on how he would do this, leading to some catastrophic strategic decisions.
Karbin
Member
+42|6302
IF.... you want to throw a nasty one out there, try this.

Hitler doesn't declare war on the U.S. in '41. (Remember that Roosevelt's call to war on Dec 8 1941 was against Japan only.)
Then before the end of '42 offers peace to Britain but, not Russia.
This offer happens before the Casablanca Conference.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6412|North Carolina
Personally, I think things would've turned out better doing what we did and then following up by conquering the Soviets before they got nukes and by keeping the Capitalists in power in China.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6418|'Murka

That's not an outrageous position, or exclusively Buchanan's. That is a common historical analysis and set of questions, tbh.

Had Hitler not been preoccupied with war on two fronts, would he have come up with a different "final solution" to moving the Jews out of Europe? He would likely have had cooperation from the other countries, as well. Would that have set up a different dynamic in the Middle East?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6507|so randum

FEOS wrote:

That's not an outrageous position, or exclusively Buchanan's. That is a common historical analysis and set of questions, tbh.

Had Hitler not been preoccupied with war on two fronts, would he have come up with a different "final solution" to moving the Jews out of Europe? He would likely have had cooperation from the other countries, as well. Would that have set up a different dynamic in the Middle East?
Originally he wasn't planning on killing them in the first place, he was going to move them to Madagascar iirc. But then the war progressesd a bit faster than he thought.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6160|what

If true, a fair point. Americans, after all, were prepared to use atom bombs to keep the Red Army from the Channel. But where is the evidence that Adolf Hitler, whose victims as of March 1939 were a fraction of Gen. Pinochet’s, or Fidel Castro’s, was out to conquer the world?
If you couldn't see it coming by the March of 1939, you had your eyes closed.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6418|'Murka

FatherTed wrote:

FEOS wrote:

That's not an outrageous position, or exclusively Buchanan's. That is a common historical analysis and set of questions, tbh.

Had Hitler not been preoccupied with war on two fronts, would he have come up with a different "final solution" to moving the Jews out of Europe? He would likely have had cooperation from the other countries, as well. Would that have set up a different dynamic in the Middle East?
Originally he wasn't planning on killing them in the first place, he was going to move them to Madagascar iirc. But then the war progressesd a bit faster than he thought.
Exactly the point.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6113|eXtreme to the maX
Had Hitler not been preoccupied with war on two fronts, would he have come up with a different "final solution" to moving the Jews out of Europe? He would likely have had cooperation from the other countries, as well. Would that have set up a different dynamic in the Middle East?
Its unlikely Hitler would have put them in the ME, Hitler was as pissed as anyone about the Zionists trying to sieze control of the holy land.
Hitler wanted the jews (and slavs and gypsies and homosexuals etc etc) out of Germany, permanently, by the most efficient means possible.
After that it was down to German deductive reasoning and efficiency - with no thought for the ethics - thats Germans for you.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-09-08 06:14:20)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
MrAnderson
Ghost Town T90/Apache Whore
+99|6006|Aberdeen, Scotland

Turquoise wrote:

Personally, I think things would've turned out better doing what we did and then following up by conquering the Soviets before they got nukes and by keeping the Capitalists in power in China.
I think it would have been a long and bloody fight against the Soviets, possibly leading to nukes being employed in Eastern Europe/USSR as well...I can't see there being a great deal of public support for continuing the war in that way.
mcgid1
Meh...
+129|6724|Austin, TX/San Antonio, TX

MrAnderson wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Personally, I think things would've turned out better doing what we did and then following up by conquering the Soviets before they got nukes and by keeping the Capitalists in power in China.
I think it would have been a long and bloody fight against the Soviets, possibly leading to nukes being employed in Eastern Europe/USSR as well...I can't see there being a great deal of public support for continuing the war in that way.
I have almost no doubt that there would have been nukes used in Eastern Europe and the USSR if there had been a war.  You also make a good point about public suppoet for the war and it should be considered that the war against German and Japan was losing the support of the American people towards the end.  However, support might have been regained if the atrocities that the Russians had committed against not just the Germans, but the Polish and their own people as well.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6549|Texas - Bigger than France
Very interesting read, although simplified to a great degree.

I thought that the German public wanted Aslace & Danzig back, and Hitler had to get them back to remain in power?

Why did he offer the British peace twice?  Well, after he had the land Germany coveted, he wanted to stop the war.  Unfortuantely, you kind of have to give back the territory if it's still in dispute.  You don't get to keep it.

Why did he not have a fleet?  He only wanted the land they coveted.  Germany's expectations were that once they got the land they wanted, well...everyone would stop fighting and cede.  Turns out expectations were wrong.

Hitler didn't build strategic bombers because...strategic bombers didn't directly support the blitz strategy.  In fact, strategic bombing didn't really take off until the allies decided to do deep runs.  Why?  Because much of the German materiel was superior.  The theory was that getting them in production was easier than in the field.  There was a much different philosophy for Germany.

Also, the article fails to mention the invasion plans for Britian well before the dates cited.  (But remember, most nations have invasion plans for their neighbors.  You hear me Canada?)
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6418|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Had Hitler not been preoccupied with war on two fronts, would he have come up with a different "final solution" to moving the Jews out of Europe? He would likely have had cooperation from the other countries, as well. Would that have set up a different dynamic in the Middle East?
Its unlikely Hitler would have put them in the ME, Hitler was as pissed as anyone about the Zionists trying to sieze control of the holy land.
Hitler wanted the jews (and slavs and gypsies and homosexuals etc etc) out of Germany, permanently, by the most efficient means possible.
After that it was down to German deductive reasoning and efficiency - with no thought for the ethics - thats Germans for you.
And again...exactly the point.

Had the "final solution" been something less gruesome, the support for a Jewish homeland in the ME would likely have been less. Thus a different situation in the ME today.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Lai
Member
+186|6158
I would classify Pat's annalysis as sheer blasphemy, if you'd ask me. Nobody went to war for Poland, Poland was just the final proof that Hitler wasn't just going to settle for the supposedly required "lebensraum". The Allies had already been to soft about Czechoslovakia and Sudetenland. Hitler not attacking France eventually, was also out of the question. The Germans had suffered too much from the post Great War tributes and the Alsace had been a matter of dispute for centuries. Hitler might or might not have written it off, the Germans hadn't. Hitler offered peace to Britain because the British top wasn't all that anti-Nazi as later proclaimed. Hitler didn't build strategic bombers, because he had V2 missles, which allowed him to bomb the shit out of London without loosing pilots and despite the fact that the Luftwaffe couldn't breach the RAF's defenses. War also was essential for the continued success of the Nazi party, without war they'd never gotten out of what was perhaps the worst financial crisis in history. Germany went too war too BECAUSE they had no surface fleet. Germany was suffering immensely, imagined or economical, from not having any significant (former) colonies and lacking any real influence at sea.

I'm being really short here, and matter probably require some more nuances, but I could go on and on about this. I think it is disgracefull of anyone to publish such a blog. It is degenerative of the so called "junta of Polish colonels"; the Polish fought their asses of in WWII, despite the fact they knew beforehand they were screwed.

Pat Buchanan wrote:

By May 1945, Red Army hordes occupied all the great capitals of Central Europe: Vienna, Prague, Budapest, Berlin. A hundred million Christians were under the heel of the most barbarous tyranny in history: the Bolshevik regime of the greatest terrorist of them all, Joseph Stalin.
This comparison of "Christians opressed by barbarians" is outrageous. First of all, if there is still one true Christian Empire, it is Russia. Secondly, contrary to what McCarthy wanted everyone to believe in the 1950's, Russia even Soviet Russia wasn't the world's evil. Without the Russians the whole of mainland Europe would have spoken German by now, England eventually too and they would seriously fuck with the New World as well.

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Had Hitler not been preoccupied with war on two fronts, would he have come up with a different "final solution" to moving the Jews out of Europe? He would likely have had cooperation from the other countries, as well. Would that have set up a different dynamic in the Middle East?
Its unlikely Hitler would have put them in the ME, Hitler was as pissed as anyone about the Zionists trying to sieze control of the holy land.
Hitler wanted the jews (and slavs and gypsies and homosexuals etc etc) out of Germany, permanently, by the most efficient means possible.
After that it was down to German deductive reasoning and efficiency - with no thought for the ethics - thats Germans for you.
And again...exactly the point.

Had the "final solution" been something less gruesome, the support for a Jewish homeland in the ME would likely have been less. Thus a different situation in the ME today.
I don't think you can blame the Jews or the formation of a Jewish homeland for the wide range of current problems in the Middle East. I think the powervacuum left by the waning of the Ottoman Empire has been far more determining for the present situation.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6418|'Murka

Lai wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:


Its unlikely Hitler would have put them in the ME, Hitler was as pissed as anyone about the Zionists trying to sieze control of the holy land.
Hitler wanted the jews (and slavs and gypsies and homosexuals etc etc) out of Germany, permanently, by the most efficient means possible.
After that it was down to German deductive reasoning and efficiency - with no thought for the ethics - thats Germans for you.
And again...exactly the point.

Had the "final solution" been something less gruesome, the support for a Jewish homeland in the ME would likely have been less. Thus a different situation in the ME today.
I don't think you can blame the Jews or the formation of a Jewish homeland for the wide range of current problems in the Middle East. I think the powervacuum left by the waning of the Ottoman Empire has been far more determining for the present situation.
Who's blaming the Jews? Certainly not me.

I'm simply recognizing that the formation of the Jewish homeland in Israel was largely accepted by the world due to collective guilt at the horrors experienced by those people at the hands of Hitler and his Reich.

If you read the history about Europe between the World Wars, you'll see that the push to get the Jews out was not limited to Germany--it was a continent-wide issue. At first, Hitler wanted to find another "homeland" for the Jews simply to get them out of his hair. He wasn't a humanitarian. He was a raving anti-Semite. And he wasn't alone in Europe's population.

That said, had the war been delayed/not occurred/gone differently, the "final solution" probably wouldn't have been enacted, which would have led to less support for a Jewish homeland in the Levant. There would still probably be ethnic strife there, but not on the scale seen today. And certainly you wouldn't have Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to serve as a rallying cry for every Islamic nutjob out there.

So...yeah. Very different dynamic in the ME.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Lai
Member
+186|6158

FEOS wrote:

I'm simply recognizing that the formation of the Jewish homeland in Israel was largely accepted by the world due to collective guilt at the horrors experienced by those people at the hands of Hitler and his Reich.

If you read the history about Europe between the World Wars, you'll see that the push to get the Jews out was not limited to Germany--it was a continent-wide issue. At first, Hitler wanted to find another "homeland" for the Jews simply to get them out of his hair. He wasn't a humanitarian. He was a raving anti-Semite. And he wasn't alone in Europe's population.

That said, had the war been delayed/not occurred/gone differently, the "final solution" probably wouldn't have been enacted, which would have led to less support for a Jewish homeland in the Levant. There would still probably be ethnic strife there, but not on the scale seen today. And certainly you wouldn't have Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to serve as a rallying cry for every Islamic nutjob out there.

So...yeah. Very different dynamic in the ME.
I do not deny that the huge ammount of required support for a Levantine Israeli state was the direct result of collective guilt, nor do I deny that anti-semitism was a widespread pan European phenomenan. I am however doubting how much it has affected the course of social-political developments in the Middle East. Maybe some and maybe even a little more for those countries that have had dealings with Israel directly, but over the whole of the Middle East, I'd say certainly not as much as you proclaim.

The Palestinian rallying cry is still only a rallying cry, comparable e.g. to a student society motto. Its real vallue is in its rallying nature, not its content, which may be anything.  The real causes to the present problems are the dissapearance of a central authority (in Ankara), the failure to unite the Arabs in a single Arabian state and the double crossing of 1916 at Sykes-Picot.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6418|'Murka

Of course the Palestinian cause is used as much for convenience as anything else. But without that, the true reasons for the problems would have to be addressed (like people trying to live 1300 years in the past).

So...again...it would be a very different dynamic without that aspect.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6475
Jews totally voted for this guy over Al Gore.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6412|North Carolina

mcgid1 wrote:

MrAnderson wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Personally, I think things would've turned out better doing what we did and then following up by conquering the Soviets before they got nukes and by keeping the Capitalists in power in China.
I think it would have been a long and bloody fight against the Soviets, possibly leading to nukes being employed in Eastern Europe/USSR as well...I can't see there being a great deal of public support for continuing the war in that way.
I have almost no doubt that there would have been nukes used in Eastern Europe and the USSR if there had been a war.  You also make a good point about public suppoet for the war and it should be considered that the war against German and Japan was losing the support of the American people towards the end.  However, support might have been regained if the atrocities that the Russians had committed against not just the Germans, but the Polish and their own people as well.
That's assuming nuclear secrets would've gotten out in time for the Soviets to use them.  There was some lead time involved where America had the nuke advantage in terms of technology and productive capacity.  Had we planned to nuke the U.S.S.R. after WW2, we could've created quite a few of them before the secrets got out.  All it would have taken is a few tactical hits in major population centers, and Russia would have been broken.  We would've had to fight off the remnants of their forces after the nukes, but we'd clearly have the upper hand.

Keeping Kai-Shek's forces in power in China at the same time would have been trickier though.
MrAnderson
Ghost Town T90/Apache Whore
+99|6006|Aberdeen, Scotland

Turquoise wrote:

All it would have taken is a few tactical hits in major population centers, and Russia would have been broken.
You say that like it's no big deal

Perhaps the threat of nukes after seeing Japan get hit would have forced the Russians to backtrack, and given freedom to the occupied areas of Eastern Europe, but I would think we'd still end up in a hostile frontier situation; maybe a more fragile 'peace' than the cold war would have ensued.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6723

Turquoise wrote:

Keeping Kai-Shek's forces in power in China at the same time would have been trickier though.
And not getting me stuck in this piece of shit non recognized island...

America would've loved a capitalist China pre-Nixon.
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venom6
Since day One.
+247|6566|Hungary
If they dont punish the central powers with Versailles, Trianon, Neully... that hard, there is no way Hitler came to power and there is no WW2.
Yes mainly France but Britan and the USA are guilty for WW2! It was only their fault!
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6418|'Murka

PLEASE tell me you meant to have [/sarcasm] tags...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6628|London, England

venom6 wrote:

If they dont punish the central powers with Versailles, Trianon, Neully... that hard, there is no way Hitler came to power and there is no WW2.
Yes mainly France but Britan and the USA are guilty for WW2! It was only their fault!
No, the treaties after WW1 were fine and deserved. It's just that everyone ignored and seemed to completely forget that WW1 even happened, except for the losing countries of that war. Thus, Germany was allowed to rise to power again. If people had just done their job it wouldn't have happened. Of course there's a million things to say about this and that about WW2 and how it could've been avoided but there you go.

Oh yeah and this Buchanan guy is an idiot with all his babble about oppressed Christians and talking about how it was all Christians and Jews who died and all that bullshit, no need to take whatever he has seriously. He's already admitted his stupid religious slant

Fuck the Nazi's anyway, they were oppressing people and doing bad shit long before they invaded anyone so regardless of Hitlers intentions they got whatever they had coming to them eventually
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6723
Rhetorical fallacies are rhetorical.
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