Teaching one's children one's values does not automatically equate to drumming, ramming, or shoving them into one's children. Every parent indoctrinates their children in one direction or another and yes, the child has no choice. It is the responsibility to be involved in their child's life and direct them until they have learned and matured enough in life to function on their own. One would have to be almost completely uninvolved in their child's life to avoid indoctrination. Children learn from the actions of their parents just as much as their words.
Poll
Should people be allowed to indoctrinate their children with religion?
| Yes | 41% | 41% - 31 | ||||
| No | 45% | 45% - 34 | ||||
| I'm Catholic | 12% | 12% - 9 | ||||
| Total: 74 | ||||||
Doesn't telling your kids to stay in school and not do drugs indoctrination by the standards of this thread then?
Seems so Doc
I'mma Cath O lick but me son was baptized as a Christian-Baptist....oh noezzz!!11!!
I don't care what religon he chooses. Religion is not a big factor for me as long as he does not turn into a zealot, and if he believes he is a better christian than some other person then I will buss him upside the head.
I don't care what religon he chooses. Religion is not a big factor for me as long as he does not turn into a zealot, and if he believes he is a better christian than some other person then I will buss him upside the head.
Last edited by loubot (2009-09-04 13:33:31)
Hell no!
Its slowing the development of humanity ffs. The faster people dump religion, the faster we will advance.
Its slowing the development of humanity ffs. The faster people dump religion, the faster we will advance.
Evidence?Ioan92 wrote:
Hell no!
Its slowing the development of humanity ffs. The faster people dump religion, the faster we will advance.
You seem to propose that religion is contradictory to science. This is not neccessarily the case. Many religious people made scientific progress.
Religion asks "why?"
Science asks "how?"
Argh, I'm mainly talking about zealots, and by my way of seeing it, most people I know that grown with religion .. are .. eh .. retarded. I'm sure though they aren't all like that and some do indeed help science. However, I doubt that those who do are very faithful.RAIMIUS wrote:
Evidence?Ioan92 wrote:
Hell no!
Its slowing the development of humanity ffs. The faster people dump religion, the faster we will advance.
You seem to propose that religion is contradictory to science. This is not neccessarily the case. Many religious people made scientific progress.
Religion asks "why?"
Science asks "how?"
No, your hypothesis is that it shouldn't happen, that religion means nothing. The burden of proof is on YOU.Dilbert_X wrote:
The hypothesis is there is a god, religion means something, its so important it needs to be drummed into kids from the age 0. Go ahead and prove it.FEOS wrote:
The normal scientific process is establishing a hypothesis, then testing it.
Until you've done so there is no justification in ramming it down kids throats.
Don't get in a snit because you can't handle criticism of your "logic". If it doesn't make sense when someone uses your own logic against you, your position isn't all that tenable, now is it?Dilbert_X wrote:
Try reading the OP, maybe the thread title, look up the definition of indoctrination - then come back.So I guess if you ever have kids, you'll force them to believe that there is no God, thus abusing them since it can't be proven there is no God...
Equally it can't be proven the scientologists aren't right and we don't all have undetectable thetans living inside our heads.
Er, no. I didn't.Dilbert_X wrote:
er, you didNobody said "deliberately" teaching kids bad personal finance.
No. It's not.Dilbert_X wrote:
Thats different from not teaching something at all, or poorly.FEOS wrote:
educating them incorrectly
And it would be interesting to live in a world where faster-than-light travel was possible.Dilbert_X wrote:
Wars - Maybe, maybe not. It would be interesting to see a world where people don't study religion until they are 18, and then keep it private.
Neither of those has happened, nor will happen any time soon.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Will do, although its harder to resist than you might think.Pug wrote:
Try not to blow urself up in a US Embassy this weekend...
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-09-04 17:04:08)
Fuck Israel
That's nice! Just call those with differing views "retarded."Ioan92 wrote:
Argh, I'm mainly talking about zealots, and by my way of seeing it, most people I know that grown with religion .. are .. eh .. retarded. I'm sure though they aren't all like that and some do indeed help science. However, I doubt that those who do are very faithful.RAIMIUS wrote:
Evidence?Ioan92 wrote:
Hell no!
Its slowing the development of humanity ffs. The faster people dump religion, the faster we will advance.
You seem to propose that religion is contradictory to science. This is not neccessarily the case. Many religious people made scientific progress.
Religion asks "why?"
Science asks "how?"
So, people who believe in religion are retarded, and people who are religious and scientific aren't actually religious...
And you pulled this theory out of where?
It's interesting how it's perfectly acceptable to say that the vast majority of the human population is fucked up, but lowing gets excoriated for saying the same thing about a subset.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
The point is thats not what I said. I wouldn't try to indoctrinate anyone with any view.FEOS wrote:
Don't get in a snit because you can't handle criticism of your "logic". If it doesn't make sense when someone uses your own logic against you, your position isn't all that tenable, now is it?
The problem is lowing tries to say ONLY the subset is fucked up, based on looking at the fucked up actions of the subset and wilfully ignoring the fucked up actions of the vast majority.It's interesting how it's perfectly acceptable to say that the vast majority of the human population is fucked up, but lowing gets excoriated for saying the same thing about a subset.
I'm comfortable with saying everyone is fucked up, the blindly religious more so.
Foisting fucked up views on someone who has no choice in the matter, who doesn't even have enough education to construct rational thought or analysis is truly fucked up.
Fuck Israel
Religious 'education' does have an especially indoctrinating quality which does ot apply to other matters.Stingray wrote:
One would have to be almost completely uninvolved in their child's life to avoid indoctrination.
You will sit in silence.
You will not ask questions.
You will memorise it word by word.
This is the word of god, there is no argument or discussion.
Fuck Israel
You know Dilbert, you are correct. It is especially indoctrinating to expose my children to my religion. I believe in my God and I will share that with my children. I do have that right and I will exercise it at will. Until you lot of progressives take that right and a lot more along the way, I will continue to keep my kids ignorant and indoctinated. Good luck.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
Of course, making progress is bad.
Fuck Israel
Well this is a bit hard to answer.
While i dont think its right that parents brainwash there kids into something, i also dont think its right to tell a parent what they can teach there kids.
The government should stay out of parenting.
While i dont think its right that parents brainwash there kids into something, i also dont think its right to tell a parent what they can teach there kids.
The government should stay out of parenting.
15 more years! 15 more years!
Perhaps this was your own experience with religion education, but it was not mine. Questions were always answered and discussion was welcomed. Nothing wrong with memorization tbh.Dilbert_X wrote:
Religious 'education' does have an especially indoctrinating quality which does ot apply to other matters.Stingray wrote:
One would have to be almost completely uninvolved in their child's life to avoid indoctrination.
You will sit in silence.
You will not ask questions.
You will memorise it word by word.
This is the word of god, there is no argument or discussion.
It does if you go to the brainwashing camps that you apparently attended/found. Even my Catholic CCD (some sort of religious education, never figured out the acronym) class encouraged questions, didn't ask you to memorize it, and it was only about as silent as any other classroom. It was boring as shit though, so I read the Bible during most classes.Dilbert_X wrote:
Religious 'education' does have an especially indoctrinating quality which does ot apply to other matters.Stingray wrote:
One would have to be almost completely uninvolved in their child's life to avoid indoctrination.
You will sit in silence.
You will not ask questions.
You will memorise it word by word.
This is the word of god, there is no argument or discussion.
Unsupported.Dilbert_X wrote:
Of course, making progress is bad.
Your stereotype about religious education does not fit my experiences either.
The point is, that's the logic you used to make your point...so it is what you said, in a manner of speaking.Dilbert_X wrote:
The point is thats not what I said. I wouldn't try to indoctrinate anyone with any view.FEOS wrote:
Don't get in a snit because you can't handle criticism of your "logic". If it doesn't make sense when someone uses your own logic against you, your position isn't all that tenable, now is it?
So it's better to say everyone, even the moderates, are fucked up than it is to point to a subset and say the same thing?Dilbert_X wrote:
The problem is lowing tries to say ONLY the subset is fucked up, based on looking at the fucked up actions of the subset and wilfully ignoring the fucked up actions of the vast majority.It's interesting how it's perfectly acceptable to say that the vast majority of the human population is fucked up, but lowing gets excoriated for saying the same thing about a subset.
That makes no sense whatsoever.
Sounds more like a Madrassah than Bible study, tbh.Dilbert_X wrote:
Religious 'education' does have an especially indoctrinating quality which does ot apply to other matters.
You will sit in silence.
You will not ask questions.
You will memorise it word by word.
This is the word of god, there is no argument or discussion.
So if someone isn't "blindly" religious, but still believes in God, then they're OK with you? No problems at all there?Dilbert_X wrote:
I'm comfortable with saying everyone is fucked up, the blindly religious more so.
Foisting fucked up views on someone who has no choice in the matter, who doesn't even have enough education to construct rational thought or analysis is truly fucked up.
What if they were "indoctrinated" by their parents at a young age but still believe in God yet openly question some of the teachings of their religion? Are they OK then, or still fucked up in your estimation?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Its wrong to foist any unthinking ideology on anyone from a young age.FEOS wrote:
The point is, that's the logic you used to make your point...so it is what you said, in a manner of speaking.
If its true, yes.So it's better to say everyone, even the moderates, are fucked up than it is to point to a subset and say the same thing?
lowings argument is moslems are inherently violent because their religion is inherently violent, whereas everyone else is inherently peaceful because there isn't an ounce of violence in theirs - which is wrong.
And to say moslems are more violent than anyone else is also wrong.
Thats part of the point, but don't think sitting in a christian church is much different.Sounds more like a Madrassah than Bible study, tbh.
Fine with me, its up to them.So if someone isn't "blindly" religious, but still believes in God, then they're OK with you? No problems at all there?
How can you, or they, tell if they are following their indoctrination or not?What if they were "indoctrinated" by their parents at a young age but still believe in God yet openly question some of the teachings of their religion? Are they OK then, or still fucked up in your estimation?
Fuck Israel
...and religions are unthinking because you say so?Dilbert_X wrote:
Its wrong to foist any unthinking ideology on anyone from a young age.FEOS wrote:
The point is, that's the logic you used to make your point...so it is what you said, in a manner of speaking.How can you, or they, tell if they are following their indoctrination or not?What if they were "indoctrinated" by their parents at a young age but still believe in God yet openly question some of the teachings of their religion? Are they OK then, or still fucked up in your estimation?
So, if we cannot tell the effects of "indoctrination," how can you?
Indoctrinating your kids with religion. I don't see a problem with it.
Let's say I believe heavily what the Bible says. I believe that if my children don't follow God, it's going to affect their eternal future. I would be an irresponsible parent NOT to tell my children what I think is important for them to learn. In fact, the Bible says to train up a boy from the youth up. I would be violating God's law not to teach my children.
Trust me, teaching a child religion is not going to screw them up. I know many people who were raised in Christian households. Some stuck with it, some decided to look elsewhere.
Yes, it may not make sense to you that people follow religion, because you say the Bible is a book written thousands of years ago. I've studied the Bible extensively. If you actually looked into it, instead of dismissing it without even considering it, you'd know a few things about it. Rather than just spew what other people tell you, why don't you actually look into it?
I'll give you an example. The Bible does NOT support a flat earth theory. There's a scripture in Isaiah which talks about God as dwelling above the "circle" of the earth. The Hebrew word used for "circle" is the same word in the "Hebrew" language that can be rendered "sphere". You say outdated, I say ahead of its time.
The Bible is also scientific in other matters. For instance, laws on disposing of dead bodies, quarantine, removal of human waste. The benefit of adhering to these things were not known until thousand of years later. You can tell me that you don't believe the Bible is inspired of God. You can tell me that the Bible is just a mythological book. You haven't looked into the Bible. I have. From the evidence I've seen, to me it supports the Bible being inspired. I know you don't agree with me and nothing I say will make you. That's what I believe. If I believe that considering the Bible is in the best interest of my children, I will lead them down that path.
Let's say I believe heavily what the Bible says. I believe that if my children don't follow God, it's going to affect their eternal future. I would be an irresponsible parent NOT to tell my children what I think is important for them to learn. In fact, the Bible says to train up a boy from the youth up. I would be violating God's law not to teach my children.
Trust me, teaching a child religion is not going to screw them up. I know many people who were raised in Christian households. Some stuck with it, some decided to look elsewhere.
Yes, it may not make sense to you that people follow religion, because you say the Bible is a book written thousands of years ago. I've studied the Bible extensively. If you actually looked into it, instead of dismissing it without even considering it, you'd know a few things about it. Rather than just spew what other people tell you, why don't you actually look into it?
I'll give you an example. The Bible does NOT support a flat earth theory. There's a scripture in Isaiah which talks about God as dwelling above the "circle" of the earth. The Hebrew word used for "circle" is the same word in the "Hebrew" language that can be rendered "sphere". You say outdated, I say ahead of its time.
The Bible is also scientific in other matters. For instance, laws on disposing of dead bodies, quarantine, removal of human waste. The benefit of adhering to these things were not known until thousand of years later. You can tell me that you don't believe the Bible is inspired of God. You can tell me that the Bible is just a mythological book. You haven't looked into the Bible. I have. From the evidence I've seen, to me it supports the Bible being inspired. I know you don't agree with me and nothing I say will make you. That's what I believe. If I believe that considering the Bible is in the best interest of my children, I will lead them down that path.
And why does it say that? Don't you find that a bit odd?TheTaxidermist wrote:
In fact, the Bible says to train up a boy from the youth up. I would be violating God's law not to teach my children.
Then you're OK with the extremists indoctrinating their kids with whatever they feel is the right thing?I would be an irresponsible parent NOT to tell my children what I think is important for them to learn.
You're making a false assumption there, I've read most of the OT, and heard enough of the NT not to be interested in reading it.Rather than just spew what other people tell you, why don't you actually look into it?
But it does mandate creationism as the only truth.I'll give you an example. The Bible does NOT support a flat earth theory.
Fuck Israel
1. Why would I find it odd that the God's law makes sure that parents train their children?Dilbert_X wrote:
And why does it say that? Don't you find that a bit odd?TheTaxidermist wrote:
In fact, the Bible says to train up a boy from the youth up. I would be violating God's law not to teach my children.Then you're OK with the extremists indoctrinating their kids with whatever they feel is the right thing?I would be an irresponsible parent NOT to tell my children what I think is important for them to learn.You're making a false assumption there, I've read most of the OT, and heard enough of the NT not to be interested in reading it.Rather than just spew what other people tell you, why don't you actually look into it?But it does mandate creationism as the only truth.I'll give you an example. The Bible does NOT support a flat earth theory.
2. I'm okay with people indoctrinating children with whatever they feel is right, as long as those things they are indoctrinating are not harming other people or themselves. You have yet to give a conclusive argument that leads me to believe teaching something like Christianity is harmful for anybody.
3. See how assumptions work? You assume that everybody who believes in a higher power is retarded, gullible, a loon. I assume that everyone who bashes the Bible has probably never even picked it up and only spout off what other people say.
4. Yes it does. Why is it so hard for you to consider that I am not willing to base my beliefs on how life originated on something that is completely by chance and almost unlikely to ever happen? Somehow your faith in the big bang is less insane than my having faith in an intelligent creator.