Under God

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Poll

Should "Under God" be taken out of the USA's pledge of allegiance?

Yes	56%	56% - 58
No	43%	43% - 44
Total: 102

2009-08-28 05:14:45

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6939|USA

LividBovine wrote:
@Turquoise: It is funny, I have seen the first line of that Adam's quote used for the opposite argument. I checked several opposing sites to fact check a bit as well.

I agree that religion should not be involved in dictating government affairs. I do believe that a civilization is best served when they follow a good moral code.

I guess I am agreeing with you for the most part.

It is relgion that ironically enough has brought us that good moral code you seek. All morality can trace its roots back to religion and its teachings of right and wrong, action and consequences.

Our laws are based on the morality of the Christian relgion. How can you establish a govt. without any determination of right or wrong to set up laws. What guide would you use if not religion? Personal opinion?

2009-08-28 05:26:18

Ei Em: Member; +7|5777

lowing wrote:
It is relgion that ironically enough has brought us that good moral code you seek. All morality can trace its roots back to religion and its teachings of right and wrong, action and consequences.

In USA, Western society, or just everyone and everywhere on Earth?

2009-08-28 20:02:49

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6693|North Carolina

lowing wrote:
How can you establish a govt. without any determination of right or wrong to set up laws. What guide would you use if not religion? Personal opinion?

Logic and reason.

2009-08-29 05:32:58

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6939|USA

Ei Em wrote:
lowing wrote:
It is relgion that ironically enough has brought us that good moral code you seek. All morality can trace its roots back to religion and its teachings of right and wrong, action and consequences.
In USA, Western society, or just everyone and everywhere on Earth?

I am thinking the world, can't think of a country without religion.

2009-08-29 05:39:39

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6939|USA

Turquoise wrote:
lowing wrote:
How can you establish a govt. without any determination of right or wrong to set up laws. What guide would you use if not religion? Personal opinion?
Logic and reason.

Based on what?
Logic and reason need some form of basis does it not, a standard by which deviation can be judged?

right and wrong in a society comes from a moral code. Even the golden rule, the base upon which all other moral codes are stem from, finds its roots in religious text.

Last edited by lowing (2009-08-29 06:33:31)

2009-08-29 06:24:20

Ei Em: Member; +7|5777

lowing wrote:
I am thinking the world, can't think of a country without religion.

Nah, I didn't aim for that.

Moral, in may cases, has been before religion that brings the moral. Religion has just been spreading that moral which has always existed -- and evolved.

This "theory" can be supported by many tribe religious people who has almost same moral codes in generally than "us" but never had religion that has settings for moral code -- untill (maybe) recently.

After this, "Country A" may have adopted religion and spread this moral code as its own. Eventhough in reality this moral code might've just been there way before said religion.

This doesn't really disapprove your post. It is merely a question of time line and which came first.

Ah, anyway, that's just a theory I stumbled upon while studying.

2009-08-29 06:32:42

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6939|USA

Ei Em wrote:
lowing wrote:
I am thinking the world, can't think of a country without religion.
Nah, I didn't aim for that.

Moral, in may cases, has been before religion that brings the moral. Religion has just been spreading that moral which has always existed -- and evolved.

This "theory" can be supported by many tribe religious people who has almost same moral codes in generally than "us" but never had religion that has settings for moral code -- untill (maybe) recently.

After this, "Country A" may have adopted religion and spread this moral code as its own. Eventhough in reality this moral code might've just been there way before said religion.

This doesn't really disapprove your post. It is merely a question of time line and which came first.

Ah, anyway, that's just a theory I stumbled upon while studying.

You say this can be supported by many tribe religious people..............doesn't this statement support my opinion by you?

2009-08-29 06:56:57

Ei Em: Member; +7|5777

lowing wrote:
You say this can be supported by many tribe religious people..............doesn't this statement support my opinion by you?

lowing wrote:
It is relgion that ironically enough has brought us that good moral code you seek.

I was merely pointing out that it's not probably religion that brought that good moral code, but was the source of spreading it.
My tribe religion reference was there because some of them used to believe, and still believes in religions that share no moral code for them but they still have very same kind of moral code in their heads than us.

That is why I asked you what I asked. For example, in USA moral code was brought in with religious context, but start of this moral code might've been very, very long time before nations were born. It's just a matter of time line and how far you want to go.

The point is that you can debate whether this good moral code is brought by religion or it is born with human, but you don't know it for sure. Not yet.

2009-08-29 07:57:01

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6939|USA

Ei Em wrote:
lowing wrote:
You say this can be supported by many tribe religious people..............doesn't this statement support my opinion by you?
lowing wrote:
It is relgion that ironically enough has brought us that good moral code you seek.
I was merely pointing out that it's not probably religion that brought that good moral code, but was the source of spreading it.
My tribe religion reference was there because some of them used to believe, and still believes in religions that share no moral code for them but they still have very same kind of moral code in their heads than us.

That is why I asked you what I asked. For example, in USA moral code was brought in with religious context, but start of this moral code might've been very, very long time before nations were born. It's just a matter of time line and how far you want to go.

The point is that you can debate whether this good moral code is brought by religion or it is born with human, but you don't know it for sure. Not yet.

Well, there has to be a point where it was decided killing an innocent person is wrong. We did not come to this conclusion by instinct,
If our morality is not instinct, then it is artifical and man made.

2009-08-29 08:02:22

Hakei: Banned; +295|6283

lowing wrote:
It is relgion that ironically enough has brought us that good moral code you seek. All morality can trace its roots back to religion and its teachings of right and wrong, action and consequences.

Our laws are based on the morality of the Christian relgion. How can you establish a govt. without any determination of right or wrong to set up laws. What guide would you use if not religion? Personal opinion?

Sorry?

Leviticus 20:13 wrote:
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:14 wrote:
And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

Deuteronomy 22:28 wrote:
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife

Matthew 23:9 wrote:
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Leviticus 18:22 wrote:
Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin.

Ephesians 5:22 wrote:
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Euteronomy 21:18 wrote:
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Exodus 22:20 wrote:
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Exodus 22:29 wrote:
Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

This, my friend, is why Christianity and Religion is a joke. This is why religion stays out of politics in the 21st century. You're going to say we need to define everything we do on a religion that, in their 10 main laws, dedicates the first 4 to the writer of those laws? By the way - in case you wasn't sure, not killing and not stealing (two of the other laws) would have been pretty easy to conclude without the writings of the Bible. Evident from the cultures and civilizations that defined this before the Bible was written.

You suggest we disregard that, in the same generation which landed on the moon, dedicate our understanding of laws and ethics on a book which has a talking snake as a major character?

Logical.

2009-08-29 11:27:21

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6693|North Carolina

lowing wrote:
Turquoise wrote:
lowing wrote:
How can you establish a govt. without any determination of right or wrong to set up laws. What guide would you use if not religion? Personal opinion?
Logic and reason.
Based on what?
Logic and reason need some form of basis does it not, a standard by which deviation can be judged?

right and wrong in a society comes from a moral code. Even the golden rule, the base upon which all other moral codes are stem from, finds its roots in religious text.

One could argue that religion came about when society deemed certain actions unacceptable. The Commandments that don't concern God are pretty self-explanatory: don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, don't commit adultery, etc.

These are ideas that could've come about purely without religion, but it is much more coercive to convince people that an all-powerful being will fuck you up if you don't follow these rules.

Essentially, this comes down to controlling people with fear rather than logic. For societies lacking wealth, education, and cultural unity, religion functions well as a code. However, as soon as a society acquires these things, religion becomes less necessary.

Whatever the case, people often say that our morals are derived from Christianity, but I could say that religion itself derived from a logical desire to maintain order in society. It's kind of a "chicken or the egg" argument.

2009-08-29 11:41:00

Trotskygrad: бля; +354|6287|Vortex Ring State

Ei Em wrote:
lowing wrote:
It is relgion that ironically enough has brought us that good moral code you seek. All morality can trace its roots back to religion and its teachings of right and wrong, action and consequences.
In USA, Western society, or just everyone and everywhere on Earth?

Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle anyone?

I believe that they formed ideas about morality with MINIMAL OR NO exposure to Christianity/Judaism.

Anyways, the Under God should be taken out because the US believes in freedom of religion (Under God assumes that one is Christian), and separation of church and state; we should not include the "Under God" in a pledge to the state.

2009-08-29 12:08:46

Stingray24: Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy; +1,060|6733|The Land of Scott Walker

Hakei, the verses you picked are not the ten "main laws" of Christianity. Perhaps you meant the 10 Commandments which are listed in Exodus 20. It should be quite obvious that the events of the Old Testament occurred during a very different period of time and culture than what we live in today. The OT is an explanation of the events of the Jewish people up to the New Testament, which describes the beginning of Christianity as we know it today. Surely you can see the progression?

2009-08-29 12:22:02

Hakei: Banned; +295|6283

Yup, it's obvious they occurred in a very different period of time.

Hence - we should forget everything that these texts say, religion is ludicrous and we shouldn't hold back our development because of it.

2009-08-29 12:24:26

DesertFox-: The very model of a modern major general; +796|6973|United States of America

Hakei wrote:
Yup, it's obvious they occurred in a very different period of time.

Hence - we should forget everything that these texts say, religion is ludicrous and we shouldn't hold back our development because of it.

True we shouldn't hold back our "development" (whatever that is is up to one's interpretation), but you'd have to be a bit of an imbecile for that to be the reason.

2009-08-29 12:26:55

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6693|North Carolina

DesertFox- wrote:
Hakei wrote:
Yup, it's obvious they occurred in a very different period of time.

Hence - we should forget everything that these texts say, religion is ludicrous and we shouldn't hold back our development because of it.
True we shouldn't hold back our "development" (whatever that is is up to one's interpretation), but you'd have to be a bit of an imbecile for that to be the reason.

I think he's referring to religion-based prejudices, like how the religious often hate homosexuals.

Civil rights should continually be forwarded in favor of equality and not held back by religion.

2009-08-30 05:38:25

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6939|USA

Hakei wrote:
lowing wrote:
It is relgion that ironically enough has brought us that good moral code you seek. All morality can trace its roots back to religion and its teachings of right and wrong, action and consequences.

Our laws are based on the morality of the Christian relgion. How can you establish a govt. without any determination of right or wrong to set up laws. What guide would you use if not religion? Personal opinion?
Sorry?

Leviticus 20:13 wrote:
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 20:14 wrote:
And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
Deuteronomy 22:28 wrote:
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife
Matthew 23:9 wrote:
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Leviticus 18:22 wrote:
Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin.
Ephesians 5:22 wrote:
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Euteronomy 21:18 wrote:
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Exodus 22:20 wrote:
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Exodus 22:29 wrote:
Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.
This, my friend, is why Christianity and Religion is a joke. This is why religion stays out of politics in the 21st century. You're going to say we need to define everything we do on a religion that, in their 10 main laws, dedicates the first 4 to the writer of those laws? By the way - in case you wasn't sure, not killing and not stealing (two of the other laws) would have been pretty easy to conclude without the writings of the Bible. Evident from the cultures and civilizations that defined this before the Bible was written.

You suggest we disregard that, in the same generation which landed on the moon, dedicate our understanding of laws and ethics on a book which has a talking snake as a major character?

Logical.

I did not say we needed religion for a moral compass, I said it was relgion that gave us a moral compass to establish societies from the beinning of our civilized existence.

and yes, even the cultures that were around before modern man believed in something that was in control and beyond their mortal lives.

2009-08-30 05:43:41

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6939|USA

Turquoise wrote:
lowing wrote:
Turquoise wrote:

Logic and reason.
Based on what?
Logic and reason need some form of basis does it not, a standard by which deviation can be judged?

right and wrong in a society comes from a moral code. Even the golden rule, the base upon which all other moral codes are stem from, finds its roots in religious text.
One could argue that religion came about when society deemed certain actions unacceptable. The Commandments that don't concern God are pretty self-explanatory: don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, don't commit adultery, etc.

These are ideas that could've come about purely without religion, but it is much more coercive to convince people that an all-powerful being will fuck you up if you don't follow these rules.

Essentially, this comes down to controlling people with fear rather than logic. For societies lacking wealth, education, and cultural unity, religion functions well as a code. However, as soon as a society acquires these things, religion becomes less necessary.

Whatever the case, people often say that our morals are derived from Christianity, but I could say that religion itself derived from a logical desire to maintain order in society. It's kind of a "chicken or the egg" argument.

I gotta agree with this.

2009-08-30 06:18:13

Hakei: Banned; +295|6283

lowing wrote:
I did not say we needed religion for a moral compass, I said it was relgion that gave us a moral compass to establish societies from the beinning of our civilized existence.

and yes, even the cultures that were around before modern man believed in something that was in control and beyond their mortal lives.

lowing wrote:
Our laws are based on the morality of the Christian relgion. How can you establish a govt. without any determination of right or wrong to set up laws. What guide would you use if not religion? Personal opinion?

Sorry, to me, this seemed as if you were setting up the side of 'Personal opinion differs person to person, religion gives a good over view of what people think is right/wrong'. It appears as if we're taking religion to be true too, remember that the Bible was just written by a few humans just as any other code of law could be.
Spoiler (highlight to read):
It isn't the word of God Religion isn't a guide for anything in the modern era, we need to let it go.

Also afaik, during the early dynastic period of ancient Egypt, religion was set up after the civilization began to grow.

2009-08-30 07:02:55

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6939|USA

Hakei wrote:
lowing wrote:
I did not say we needed religion for a moral compass, I said it was relgion that gave us a moral compass to establish societies from the beinning of our civilized existence.

and yes, even the cultures that were around before modern man believed in something that was in control and beyond their mortal lives.
lowing wrote:
Our laws are based on the morality of the Christian relgion. How can you establish a govt. without any determination of right or wrong to set up laws. What guide would you use if not religion? Personal opinion?
Sorry, to me, this seemed as if you were setting up the side of 'Personal opinion differs person to person, religion gives a good over view of what people think is right/wrong'. It appears as if we're taking religion to be true too, remember that the Bible was just written by a few humans just as any other code of law could be.
Spoiler (highlight to read):
It isn't the word of God Religion isn't a guide for anything in the modern era, we need to let it go.

Also afaik, during the early dynastic period of ancient Egypt, religion was set up after the civilization began to grow.

I believe both my comments to be true.

I do think it would be impossible for person opinion to establish a standard for moral behavior. Consequences for our actions dictate are behavior, not opinion. Religion gives us those consequences and our laws, (all laws) enforce those consequences.

2009-08-30 07:15:32

Hakei: Banned; +295|6283

I'm still obfuscated as to why we only accept some rules that religion states and ignore those that are considered 'unethical'. Also, you're missing the point that the Bible is just personal opinion, or rather, a collection of opinions. Religion had its place, it held civilizations together and gave answers. Yet to keep it after we've come so far in understanding the truth about reality?

2009-08-30 07:24:48

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6939|USA

Hakei wrote:
I'm still obfuscated as to why we only accept some rules that religion states and ignore those that are considered 'unethical'. Also, you're missing the point that the Bible is just personal opinion, or rather, a collection of opinions. Religion had its place, it held civilizations together and gave answers. Yet to keep it after we've come so far in understanding the truth about reality?

Because some things are more convienient than others, this is why you have multiple religions in the world, they are adapted to relect what is most convienient for the "believer".

Nope I got your point and I do agree, however, they are "opinions" that have been taken and adopted and ACCEPTED into a faith.

I also agree with your last comment.

Last edited by lowing (2009-08-30 07:25:23)

2009-08-30 08:54:46

Hakei: Banned; +295|6283

Sorry to be so opposed to putting down religion, recently I've been arguing against religion religiously. I put the blame entirely on reading The God Delusion / watching Religulous.

I realise it gives a nice, easy answer to people who simply do not have the time to invest, nor care, and it really did help us develop as a civilization. But I think it's time for people to realise it's not as simple as an all powerful being sorting everything out.

Are you of a faith, lowing?

2009-08-30 09:26:57

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6939|USA

Hakei wrote:
Sorry to be so opposed to putting down religion, recently I've been arguing against religion religiously. I put the blame entirely on reading The God Delusion / watching Religulous.

I realise it gives a nice, easy answer to people who simply do not have the time to invest, nor care, and it really did help us develop as a civilization. But I think it's time for people to realise it's not as simple as an all powerful being sorting everything out.

Are you of a faith, lowing?

We are on the same page here. and absolutely not I have no religion. Religion does not pass muster when reality, common sense and scientific fact are applied.

I believe in chaos and randomness. I believe you do need a reason for good or bad to happen outside that of the decisions we make for ourselves.

Last edited by lowing (2009-08-30 09:29:07)

2009-08-30 09:40:00

Hakei: Banned; +295|6283

Hmm, well that's another topic - I believe everything is pre-determinable and randomness doesn't exist. Though that train of thought can turn you insane over time, so I try to avoid it. :p

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LividBovine wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

Ei Em wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

Ei Em wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

Ei Em wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

Leviticus 20:13 wrote:

Leviticus 20:14 wrote:

Deuteronomy 22:28 wrote:

Matthew 23:9 wrote:

Leviticus 18:22 wrote:

Ephesians 5:22 wrote:

Euteronomy 21:18 wrote:

Exodus 22:20 wrote:

Exodus 22:29 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Ei Em wrote:

lowing wrote:

Hakei wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

Hakei wrote:

Hakei wrote:

lowing wrote:

Leviticus 20:13 wrote:

Leviticus 20:14 wrote:

Deuteronomy 22:28 wrote:

Matthew 23:9 wrote:

Leviticus 18:22 wrote:

Ephesians 5:22 wrote:

Euteronomy 21:18 wrote:

Exodus 22:20 wrote:

Exodus 22:29 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

Hakei wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

Hakei wrote:

Hakei wrote:

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