BF2S Forums Under God

If it offends you, don't say it.  If you can't even stand that, I suggest you not use US currency or enter any federal building on which Scriptural passages are chiseled.  You know, for consistency's sake, etc etc.  That said, taking that phrase out of the pledge changes nothing about the history of our nation.  In the end, not a big deal.  I'll still live here even if we expunge the mention of God from everything in this nation.

Why reference someone who doesn't exist?

It doesn't really matter...  We all know that the god this country actually worships is money.

Maybe they should make it a pledge to the Constitution instead of the flag (a piece of cloth)... /sarcasm(kind of)

In God We Trust was only added to a few coins in the late 1800s and to paper money only very recently.  We should go back to having E Pluribus Unum on our currency.

Narupug wrote:

Why reference someone who doesn't exist?

Why complain about someone who doesn't exist?

Wreckognize wrote:

Take it out.  The United States is not and never was a Christian nation.

Treaty of Tripoli wrote:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

LOL. You obviously didn't pay attention in history.

The "founding fathers" were dedicated Christians.  In fact, they prayed daily during the formation of the declaration of independence.

Now saying that the US is now highly diverse and is not solely a christian nation is a different story.

I am relatively christian and do believe in god. I see no reason to take Under God out of the pledge. This has been suggested plenty of times. Honestly it only creates a lot of bullshit and drama over a few sentences that after schooling you will hardly say again.

Turquoise wrote:

So no, most of the founders were not especially religious and generally invoked religion in speeches with a cautious tone while still keeping it out of policy as much as possible.

Separation of church and state isn't specifically in the Constitution, but it's clear that the concept was heavily supported by the founders.

It was clearly not in the constitution because they were avoiding trampling on the states rights.  They did not want to impose a federal religion upon the states.  That is why there is this so called Separation of Church and State.  They also learned the lesson of having a government driven by the church itself.  They knew better than to let the church create laws and doctrine for the country.  They did base a lot of things on Christian principles.

Food for thought:

John Adams wrote:

The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

John Adams also wrote:

[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.

Benjamin Franklin wrote:

God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.

I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.

God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.

James Madison wrote:

We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.

I can has more please?

Also remember that there were several hundred that were considered founding fathers.  People attack a few of them, but what of the rest?

T1g3r217 wrote:

"Under God" was added during McCarthyism (a dark period in American history by any standard), then why not officially remove ourselves from that era and take it out?

The Senate passed a resolution in support of it staying as is in 2002, it passed 99-0.

Last edited by LividBovine (2009-08-27 01:38:42)

lowing wrote:

anyone that is "offended" and on mission to have these statments removed literally has no other problems in their lives that need attention, and is simply looking for a hobby or historical recognition as a foot note for future generations to miss on a test question..

The Christians are trying to take over.  First our money, then the pledge.  Where will it stop?

lowing wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

lowing wrote:

anyone that is "offended" and on mission to have these statments removed literally has no other problems in their lives that need attention, and is simply looking for a hobby or historical recognition as a foot note for future generations to miss on a test question..

The Christians are trying to take over.  First our money, then the pledge.  Where will it stop?

News Flash, the US has always been a Christian nation, with Christian morality, regardless as to what Obama has to say about it.

Now, before you say it, I will willingly concede that even though we maintain a Christian morality, we have not been practicing it very well throughout our history.

News flash.  This country was founded as a means of extending empires and building wealth.  It was not founded for religious freedoms or those seeking religious freedom, that was simply a byproduct of what came later.

And as usual, you can't make a post without throwing an Obama jab.  And, as usual, like all other conservatives, you're a hypocrite.  You use the battle cry of individual responsibility while simultaneously pointing fingers and the bogeyman liberals as the cause of everything that is wrong with this country.

T1g3r217, who is it that came up that quote on your sig again, it pisses me off so much, I see it everywhere!  No offence.

With respect to the question, yeah sure, though, I think there are more pressing debates......

edit:  Infact no, leave it, changing it is a sign of weakness   All you will do is piss a lot of people off and the rest wont care.

Last edited by Bell (2009-08-27 10:33:04)

LividBovine wrote:

John Adams wrote:

The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

John Adams also wrote:

[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.

I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.

God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.

Well, those quotes only show part of the story.

"those who live by mystery & charlatanerie, fearing you would render them useless by simplifying the Christian philosophy, the most sublime & benevolent, but most perverted system that ever shone on man, endeavored to crush your well earnt, & well deserved fame." - Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Priestley, Washington, 21 March 1801

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."
--John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."
-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

"When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it."-- John Adams, from Rufus K Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world."-- John Adams, "this awful blasphemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

I pulled these from this site: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm

It is clearly a biased site, however, the author goes on to explain an often misquoted statement from Adams.

"What you see in a great many atheistic quotes lists:

'This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it!!!'
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What Adams was saying, in its actual context:

"'Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!' But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.'
-- John Adams, quoted from Charles Francis Adams, ed, Works of John Adams (1856), vol. X, p. 254

"John Adams is here describing to Thomas Jefferson what he sees as an emotion-based ejaculatory thought that keeps coming to him. This was not his reasoned opinion. Although John Adams often felt an urge to advocate atheism as a popular world view (because of the sheer abuses perpetrated by religious charlatans), he was of the firm and reasoned opinion (basically undisputed in his day) that religion is essential to the goal of keeping the masses in line.

"Knowing what we know today, to say this is pure slander against atheists. And yet it is still quite popular, especially among the uneducated, the widespread acknowledgement of its falsehood notwithstanding.

"Thus, Adams was not above presenting such travesties as his National Day of Prayer and Fasting proclamation. These acts reflected his view that the masses needed religion to keep this world from becoming a bedlam. However, Adams, like Washington and Jefferson, did not apply this reasoning to himself -- as we can plainly see from the quotations in the main section: religion was good for the masses but not for John Adams (for the most part), who was above all that and needed no piety in order to maintain his own sense of civility."

I too made the mistake of not knowing the context of this quote, so I now understand that Adams was not anti-religious at all.  Still, he clearly takes a view of religion as a way to keep people obedient and civil.  For the record, I also see religion as necessary for the same reasons, but in addition to this, I do not follow a religion anymore than Adams did.

LividBovine wrote:

[Also remember that there were several hundred that were considered founding fathers.  People attack a few of them, but what of the rest?

True, but it is inaccurate to suggest that the majority of Founders were supportive of managing policy through religion.  While certain Christian principles are innate to our culture, they are not exclusive to Christianity, and because of this, they work well with a secular government.

Beyond the Commandments that do not specifically concern God, religion should stay out of actual state policy.  This is where I differ from Adams (and where Adams himself differed from some of his colleagues).   As mentioned above, Adams thought that wielding religion in policy was necessary occasionally to keep order.  I believe that this is a very dangerous route to go down in a multicultural society.

Even though I agree that religion is necessary for order, I see it as something that should remain personal and unconnected to government.  Jefferson takes more of a view like this.

Last edited by Turquoise (2009-08-27 19:59:24)

@Turquoise:  It is funny, I have seen the first line of that Adam's quote used for the opposite argument.  I checked several opposing sites to fact check a bit as well. 

I agree that religion should not be involved in dictating government affairs.  I do believe that a civilization is best served when they follow a good moral code. 

I guess I am agreeing with you for the most part.