BF2S Forums Lies and Disinformation on Healthcare Reform

Cybargs wrote:

I know I know... But your government is a signitory of it, thus they should be responsible for it. But no one really follows the decleration.

We have free healthcare.

Mekstizzle wrote:

How much does the average person pay for health insurance and what would the difference be vs tax increases for statewide national healthcare?

I dunno.  But, I was talking aboot the UN thing.

lol

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Personally I think the NHS is a good thing, and no shit you'll be getting people attacking it from within and from the abroad for whatever reasons, but it works. I couldn't care less whether the US does private health care or not, that's their problem, but over here, I'm happy with the NHS.

And more than 85% of Americans are happy with the system here.

Really?

Source for that? Is it just a figure you've heard thrown around?

Doesn't fit at all with the figures from a recent poll, which shows that 85% of Americans support healthcare reform.

And here's a poll that shows 54% feel that doing nothing is better than passing this steaming pile of shit.

Unfortunately, the 85% number was on a news program and I can't find the poll online that was referenced. That doesn't mean it didn't happen...only that I can't find it. I really couldn't care less whether you believe it or not.

But you've done a fine job of showing that the majority of Americans do not support this shit. And that the vast majority of those covered under this horribly flawed system (according to the NHS fanbois) are perfectly happy with their coverage.

How exactly do you square that?

Bert wrote:

Reuters wrote:

But the Times/CBS poll found 85 percent of respondents wanted major healthcare reforms and most would be willing to pay higher taxes to ensure everyone had health insurance. An estimated 46 million Americans currently have no coverage.

I have little confidence in either figure.

As far as I can see from a combination of poll (in this case a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll) and census data, around 85% of Americans have health insurance. Of those more than three quarters are dissatisfied with the cost - though around 80% (of those covered) are happy with the quality of service. This is consistent with the results of polls conducted in the past.

The idea that all Americans with healthcare coverage are happy with it is clearly inaccurate. There are factors the majority with coverage are unhappy with and whilst overall satisfaction amongst those with coverage is generally good, it is obviously not universal - which it would need to be to achieve the figure of 85% of Americans being happy with their coverage under the current system (assuming that at least some of those without coverage are unhappy with their coverage - which is a fairly safe assumption).

The 46 million has been debunked as well, btw.

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

And more than 85% of Americans are happy with the system here.

Really?

Source for that? Is it just a figure you've heard thrown around?

Doesn't fit at all with the figures from a recent poll, which shows that 85% of Americans support healthcare reform.

And here's a poll that shows 54% feel that doing nothing is better than passing this steaming pile of shit.

Unfortunately, the 85% number was on a news program and I can't find the poll online that was referenced. That doesn't mean it didn't happen...only that I can't find it. I really couldn't care less whether you believe it or not.

But you've done a fine job of showing that the majority of Americans do not support this shit. And that the vast majority of those covered under this horribly flawed system (according to the NHS fanbois) are perfectly happy with their coverage.

How exactly do you square that?

Easily, there's a huge difference between happy with the current system and prefering the current system to a specific proposed change. It's like running a poll and asking if people would rather be stabbed in the chest or kicked in the nuts. Just because people prefer being kicked in the nuts doesn't mean that they want to get kicked in the nuts (well I guess a few would but that's a very different topic).

Whether or not people are satisfied with their current situation depends very strongly on what they think the alternatives might be. In the US people have to compare their situation with the pantomime villian verson of socialised medicine that the US media wrongly portray and the millions of uninsured and under insured in their own country. In comparison to that Americans can be satisfied with their helathcare situation because at least it's not one of thoes other (percieved) awful situations. An easy example of this, take satisfaction with cars. I bet in the 50s people were generally satisfied with their car. Today if someone has a 50s spec car they would be unhappy. The reason is that now people think there are better alternatives and people's expectations have changed.

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

And more than 85% of Americans are happy with the system here.

Really?

Source for that? Is it just a figure you've heard thrown around?

Doesn't fit at all with the figures from a recent poll, which shows that 85% of Americans support healthcare reform.

And here's a poll that shows 54% feel that doing nothing is better than passing this steaming pile of shit.

Unfortunately, the 85% number was on a news program and I can't find the poll online that was referenced. That doesn't mean it didn't happen...only that I can't find it. I really couldn't care less whether you believe it or not.

Well, I don't believe it to be true. Perhaps it was on a news program. The point is that does not make it true - since a lot of the crap being spouted by these news programs simply isn't.

FEOS wrote:

But you've done a fine job of showing that the majority of Americans do not support this shit. And that the vast majority of those covered under this horribly flawed system (according to the NHS fanbois) are perfectly happy with their coverage.

How exactly do you square that?

Very, very easily. I already have in a previous post anyway and Purefodder has done the job for me here. Prefering no action to the proposed action != not wanting reform. Wanting reform is being unhappy with the current system.

You have done nothing to demonstrate any of the points you have put forward. You've provided NOTHING to support your original 85% claim. As for the 46 million figure, it includes everyone in the US, not just Americans, that's a fair comment - taking the figure down to around 87.5% of Americans having coverage in 2007. All estimates show that number is diminishing at the moment as unemployment was at lower levels in 2007, that's another couple of million that now don't have coverage. Even if we took this too extremes and said that 90% of Americans have healthcare coverage (which they don't) then based on typical satisfaction levels with the quality of service (even discounting cost from the equation entirely)
then you are left with a figure of around 72% of Americans being happy with their current healthcare arrangements. In the most favourable scenario possible, your 85% figure still looks ludicrous.

Bertster7 wrote:

Well, I don't believe it to be true. Perhaps it was on a news program. The point is that does not make it true - since a lot of the crap being spouted by these news programs simply isn't.

I guess it makes life a lot easier to just discount things that don't synch with your views.

However, even if you discount that statistic, the available statistics still show a majority of Americans are perfectly satisfied with their current coverage/system.

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

But you've done a fine job of showing that the majority of Americans do not support this shit. And that the vast majority of those covered under this horribly flawed system (according to the NHS fanbois) are perfectly happy with their coverage.

How exactly do you square that?

Very, very easily. I already have in a previous post anyway and Purefodder has done the job for me here. Prefering no action to the proposed action != not wanting reform. Wanting reform is being unhappy with the current system.

And I've never said the American people didn't want reform...just that we don't want this reform.

Bertster7 wrote:

You have done nothing to demonstrate any of the points you have put forward.

Go back and read again. I certainly have.

Bertster7 wrote:

You've provided NOTHING to support your original 85% claim.

We've already covered that ground, and I explained where I had heard it and that I had been unable to find a source online. Is that what you're going to hang your hat on? Maybe you should do some simple calculations: Multiply the number of Americans by the percentage that have coverage; then multiply that number by the percentage that are happy with their current coverage; then divide that number by the total number of Americans. The number you end up with is still greater than 50%.

Bertster7 wrote:

As for the 46 million figure, it includes everyone in the US, not just Americans, that's a fair comment - taking the figure down to around 87.5% of Americans having coverage in 2007. All estimates show that number is diminishing at the moment as unemployment was at lower levels in 2007, that's another couple of million that now don't have coverage. Even if we took this too extremes and said that 90% of Americans have healthcare coverage (which they don't) then based on typical satisfaction levels with the quality of service (even discounting cost from the equation entirely)
then you are left with a figure of around 72% of Americans being happy with their current healthcare arrangements. In the most favourable scenario possible, your 85% figure still looks ludicrous.

72%. What do the polls say about NHS? Does it even matter, since those people don't have a choice?

FEOS wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Whether or not people are satisfied with their current situation depends very strongly on what they think the alternatives might be. In the US people have to compare their situation with the pantomime villian verson of socialised medicine that the US media wrongly portray and the millions of uninsured and under insured in their own country. In comparison to that Americans can be satisfied with their helathcare situation because at least it's not one of thoes other (percieved) awful situations. An easy example of this, take satisfaction with cars. I bet in the 50s people were generally satisfied with their car. Today if someone has a 50s spec car they would be unhappy. The reason is that now people think there are better alternatives and people's expectations have changed.

You have a distinctly flawed understanding of what the US people have experienced and what they want.

The people in the US certainly want everyone to be ABLE to get coverage. What they don't want is a socialized system. Too many of us have seen a socialized system here (veterans and their families), and we're none too happy with it. If they want to offer up a reasonable insurance option vice a NHS, that's fine.

They haven't offered up a reasonable insurance option yet.

All the polls taken thus far back that up.

They back up the fact that Americans are about evenly split between the current system and what (their perception of, taken predominatly from the obviously biased corporate news) the proposed system is. That means that half the people think the proposed system (which presumably you oppose, as do I) is better than what is currently on offer. ie. they are both equally shitty. This is not a sign of contentment with the current system if half the populace prefer a rubbish reform to the status quo. If people had a realistic perception of other alternatives, it's possile that preceptions of satisfaction of the current system would change dramatically as satisfaction depends crutially on what you think the alternatives are.

Satisfaction is not objective, but depends crutially upon the precieved alternatives. This effect is so well known and understood there's even a bible parable about it (the vinyard workers). You will not understand opinion polls until you understand that.

FEOS wrote:

What do the polls say about NHS? Does it even matter, since those people don't have a choice?

Since when?

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Well, I don't believe it to be true. Perhaps it was on a news program. The point is that does not make it true - since a lot of the crap being spouted by these news programs simply isn't.

I guess it makes life a lot easier to just discount things that don't synch with your views.

However, even if you discount that statistic, the available statistics still show a majority of Americans are perfectly satisfied with their current coverage/system.

The whole purpose of this thread is a discussion of the out and out lies being told by a number of news providers in relation to this. Inspired by the article claiming Stephen Hawking would've been left to die under NHS care, despite the fact pretty much all his treatment has been carried out by the NHS. News providers ARE making things up and it requires effort to find out accurate figures, which distorts a great many peoples views.

Which news providers have been lying? Or have they simply been reporting peoples' opinions on both sides of the issue?

Which news providers are making things up? All reports I have seen regarding sentiment have been based on polls. Some stories have been provided showing the good and bad of nationalized systems. I haven't seen anything remotely akin to what you're implying.

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Very, very easily. I already have in a previous post anyway and Purefodder has done the job for me here. Prefering no action to the proposed action != not wanting reform. Wanting reform is being unhappy with the current system.

And I've never said the American people didn't want reform...just that we don't want this reform.

Yes, you have. You said 85% were happy with their healthcare, which is poppycock.

85% of those covered are happy with their healthcare. Which corresponds to 72% of the entire population of the US (both covered and uncovered)...even if you take the 47 million at face value.

So are you saying 72% is poppycock?

BTW, we already covered the 85% number. Just keep clinging to that if it makes you feel better. Doesn't change the facts, however.

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

You have done nothing to demonstrate any of the points you have put forward.

Go back and read again. I certainly have.

No you haven't. You've made a stupid claim that 85% of Americans are happy with their healthcare without anything to support that claim. Now it seems you are frantically backpedaling.

Now who's making stuff up? Perhaps you have a future in the news industry?

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

You've provided NOTHING to support your original 85% claim.

We've already covered that ground, and I explained where I had heard it and that I had been unable to find a source online. Is that what you're going to hang your hat on? Maybe you should do some simple calculations: Multiply the number of Americans by the percentage that have coverage; then multiply that number by the percentage that are happy with their current coverage; then divide that number by the total number of Americans. The number you end up with is still greater than 50%.

Oh yes, you heard it on a random, unnamed news station and were unable to find a source online. That's going a long way to proving your claim that is.

Here's a Gallup poll.

Summary of an ABC/Washington Post (liberal bias) Poll:

84% of respondents have some form of health insurance, 16% don’t.

83% of all respondents are satisfied with the quality of health care; 88% of insured respondents are.

Of the insured, 81% are satisfied with their coverage; 42% are very satisfied and 39% are somewhat satisfied. This is where insurers are vulnerable.

When asked how concerned they are about efforts to reform health care [insurance]:

81% are concerned that the quality of health care would be reduced;
82% are concerned that their health insurance coverage would be reduced;
84% are concerned that reforms would increase their health care costs;
78% are concerned that proposed reforms would increase bureaucracy in health care;
79% are concerned that reforms would limit their choices of doctors or treatments;  and,
84% are concerned that reforms would sharply increase the federal deficit.

That's data within a biased organization's poll. Yes, there is data supporting the other side, as well. But your snide-assed comment doesn't rate it. I already mea-culpa'ed the 85%, but you felt it necessary to keep picking the scab. I'll remember that the next time you offer something up.

Bertster7 wrote:

If there is no traceable source for the poll, the figure has in all likelihood been made up. Either by the news station you claim to have heard it on or by you.

Your pomposity is tiresome. I heard a number while driving home. I don't know about you, but I don't have a pad where I write down the station, show, and source while driving. Perhaps it's easier with right-hand drive cars.

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

As for the 46 million figure, it includes everyone in the US, not just Americans, that's a fair comment - taking the figure down to around 87.5% of Americans having coverage in 2007. All estimates show that number is diminishing at the moment as unemployment was at lower levels in 2007, that's another couple of million that now don't have coverage. Even if we took this too extremes and said that 90% of Americans have healthcare coverage (which they don't) then based on typical satisfaction levels with the quality of service (even discounting cost from the equation entirely)
then you are left with a figure of around 72% of Americans being happy with their current healthcare arrangements. In the most favourable scenario possible, your 85% figure still looks ludicrous.

72%. What do the polls say about NHS? Does it even matter, since those people don't have a choice?

They do have a choice. There is plenty of private healthcare available in the UK. Of course you'll try to make the point that we're already paying for the NHS through taxes - but then our private healthcare is far cheaper, which accounts for that and ultimately, you're paying more in taxes for healthcare anyway.

And you likely have other reforms that apply to the healthcare system that make services cheaper. Yet we aren't even attempting to touch those issues here...which is why this "reform" option fails.

Bertster7 wrote:

72% in a completely unfeasible scenario. Whereas the NHS figures look better than that. I haven't seen any recent UK wide polls, but here is a poll of Londoners opinions of the NHS.

NHS London wrote:

A poll of more than 3,000 Londoners showed eight out of 10 (79 per cent) strongly agreed or tended to agree the NHS in the capital provided them with a good service.

Bertster7 wrote:

If there is no traceable source for the poll, the figure has in all likelihood been made up. Either by the news station you claim to have heard it on or by you.

Well, if you can't source (your data is just as well-sourced as mine was) the poll, you probably just made it up. Your numbers conflict with mine, so you're probably lying just to win an argument. You're just a pawn of the NHS.

Gee...that sounds snide, childish and flawed, doesn't it?

Last edited by FEOS (2009-08-18 04:17:19)

Dilbert_X wrote:

Ah whatever, Obama's smart, he'll figure it out.

Anyway, doesn't the US spend double the proportion of GDP on healthcare other countries do and still get less service?

That's basically how I see it.

I get the feeling that the issue might be a little more complicated than that.

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Well, I don't believe it to be true. Perhaps it was on a news program. The point is that does not make it true - since a lot of the crap being spouted by these news programs simply isn't.

I guess it makes life a lot easier to just discount things that don't synch with your views.

However, even if you discount that statistic, the available statistics still show a majority of Americans are perfectly satisfied with their current coverage/system.

The whole purpose of this thread is a discussion of the out and out lies being told by a number of news providers in relation to this. Inspired by the article claiming Stephen Hawking would've been left to die under NHS care, despite the fact pretty much all his treatment has been carried out by the NHS. News providers ARE making things up and it requires effort to find out accurate figures, which distorts a great many peoples views.

Which news providers have been lying? Or have they simply been reporting peoples' opinions on both sides of the issue?

Which news providers are making things up? All reports I have seen regarding sentiment have been based on polls. Some stories have been provided showing the good and bad of nationalized systems. I haven't seen anything remotely akin to what you're implying.

Have you even read the OP?

Lots of news providers have been making stuff up and/or not checking their facts. You clearly have not read/understood this thread at all.

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Very, very easily. I already have in a previous post anyway and Purefodder has done the job for me here. Prefering no action to the proposed action != not wanting reform. Wanting reform is being unhappy with the current system.

And I've never said the American people didn't want reform...just that we don't want this reform.

Yes, you have. You said 85% were happy with their healthcare, which is poppycock.

85% of those covered are happy with their healthcare. Which corresponds to 72% of the entire population of the US (both covered and uncovered)...even if you take the 47 million at face value.

So are you saying 72% is poppycock?

BTW, we already covered the 85% number. Just keep clinging to that if it makes you feel better. Doesn't change the facts, however.

I'm saying that on the basis of data from recent polls that 72% of Americans being happy with healthcare in the US exceedingly unlikely.

You covered the 85% number? No you didn't, except to say that you didn't know where you heard it and that you have no source for it.

The figures you've just provided in the Gallup poll and the NY Times poll certainly are not consistent with that at all. They show satisfaction with the current healthcare system to be ~50%.

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Go back and read again. I certainly have.

No you haven't. You've made a stupid claim that 85% of Americans are happy with their healthcare without anything to support that claim. Now it seems you are frantically backpedaling.

Now who's making stuff up? Perhaps you have a future in the news industry?

Well, you are - if you're still pushing this 85% of Americans being happy with healthcare in the US figure.

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

We've already covered that ground, and I explained where I had heard it and that I had been unable to find a source online. Is that what you're going to hang your hat on? Maybe you should do some simple calculations: Multiply the number of Americans by the percentage that have coverage; then multiply that number by the percentage that are happy with their current coverage; then divide that number by the total number of Americans. The number you end up with is still greater than 50%.

Oh yes, you heard it on a random, unnamed news station and were unable to find a source online. That's going a long way to proving your claim that is.

Here's a Gallup poll.

Great. A poll that's almost 10 years old. Which shows that 54% of Americans are satisfied with the quality of healthcare in the US:

A Gallup poll finds that just a slight majority of Americans (54%) are satisfied with the quality of healthcare in the United States.

Your source doesn't do a lot to support your earlier assertion that:

FEOS wrote:

more than 85% of Americans are happy with the system here.

Your sources don't support that, my sources don't support that. It's just nonsense. Whether it's been made up by you or some random news station, I don't know.

FEOS wrote:

Summary of an ABC/Washington Post (liberal bias) Poll:

84% of respondents have some form of health insurance, 16% don’t.

83% of all respondents are satisfied with the quality of health care; 88% of insured respondents are.

Of the insured, 81% are satisfied with their coverage; 42% are very satisfied and 39% are somewhat satisfied. This is where insurers are vulnerable.

When asked how concerned they are about efforts to reform health care [insurance]:

81% are concerned that the quality of health care would be reduced;
82% are concerned that their health insurance coverage would be reduced;
84% are concerned that reforms would increase their health care costs;
78% are concerned that proposed reforms would increase bureaucracy in health care;
79% are concerned that reforms would limit their choices of doctors or treatments;  and,
84% are concerned that reforms would sharply increase the federal deficit.

That's data within a biased organization's poll. Yes, there is data supporting the other side, as well. But your snide-assed comment doesn't rate it. I already mea-culpa'ed the 85%, but you felt it necessary to keep picking the scab. I'll remember that the next time you offer something up.

So now you're changing the subject? You've been off topic enough as it is, now you are moving away from the single statistic I've picked up on - because it was obvious bullshit. Satisfaction with the US healthcare system is the only figure I've been refering to (or satisfaction levels with the NHS as a comparison) - since this thread is about the misinformation spread surrounding this issue, not about support for reform. I picked up on the 85% figure you presented as fact as being a clear example of this. The NY Times poll figures (page 3, question 50) place satisfaction with the US system at around 40-50% - which is in line with the findings of the much older Gallup poll.

Support for the reform bill is not something I've gotten onto, since I'm not even sure I do support it.

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

If there is no traceable source for the poll, the figure has in all likelihood been made up. Either by the news station you claim to have heard it on or by you.

Your pomposity is tiresome. I heard a number while driving home. I don't know about you, but I don't have a pad where I write down the station, show, and source while driving. Perhaps it's easier with right-hand drive cars.

Bertster7 wrote:

FEOS wrote:

72%. What do the polls say about NHS? Does it even matter, since those people don't have a choice?

They do have a choice. There is plenty of private healthcare available in the UK. Of course you'll try to make the point that we're already paying for the NHS through taxes - but then our private healthcare is far cheaper, which accounts for that and ultimately, you're paying more in taxes for healthcare anyway.

And you likely have other reforms that apply to the healthcare system that make services cheaper. Yet we aren't even attempting to touch those issues here...which is why this "reform" option fails.

Maybe the reform option put forward does fail. But reform is clearly needed. The system is not run in the best interests of the nation (it is costly, it does not perform well on average - it is average performance that is most important to the health of the nation as a whole).

FEOS wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

72% in a completely unfeasible scenario. Whereas the NHS figures look better than that. I haven't seen any recent UK wide polls, but here is a poll of Londoners opinions of the NHS.

NHS London wrote:

A poll of more than 3,000 Londoners showed eight out of 10 (79 per cent) strongly agreed or tended to agree the NHS in the capital provided them with a good service.

Bertster7 wrote:

If there is no traceable source for the poll, the figure has in all likelihood been made up. Either by the news station you claim to have heard it on or by you.

Well, if you can't source (your data is just as well-sourced as mine was) the poll, you probably just made it up. Your numbers conflict with mine, so you're probably lying just to win an argument. You're just a pawn of the NHS.

Gee...that sounds snide, childish and flawed, doesn't it?

You want a source for that figure, no problem. It's from an Ipsos MORI poll. The article itself can be seen here.

Of course you could have just put the direct quote I gave you into Google, if you really wanted a source....

The NHS is a long way from being the best system there is, but it's up there.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2009-08-18 13:30:47)