BF2S Forums for you catholics,jews w/e if u believe in god read this

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

why is a baby born with sin?

A baby is not born with sin.  We are born into the consequence of original sin.  There is no real "guilt" associated with original sin.  We are not responsible for Adam and Eve, but we must live in consequence of their actions.  It is a very modern mindset that believes that we are all born as sinners and baptism is there to magically cleanse that.  Baptism is a beginning in the Christian faith, not the end.  Baptism in itself does not "save" in and of itself, as is a common misconception.  Baptism is the intiation into the Christian faith, a new beginning, a requirement to be sure, but a starting point nonetheless.  One can still fall out of their faith even after baptism.  Faith is not a Visa card to be wipped out and used when convenient.  Faith and salvation are paths to follow and is a "race" we constantly run until death.

This can help answer the earlier question, "Why does God allow bad things to happen?"... He is not so much "allowing" things to happen, but rather He is honoring our desire to live IN this world; again as a consequence to our desire to be individuals (seperate from God).
Adam and Eve, before the fall, could care less about their nakedness because they had all things in common with each other and God.  They had no cares for themselves.  After the fall, they covered themselves... This shows us how they became interested in themselves only; a seperation from each other and God.  Not only did this show their selfishness, but they blamed someone (as in Eve) or something (as in the serpent) else.  No longer was it "we" or "us" but "him" and "I".  We went from a common life to, "oh no, what about me..?"  It was downhill ever since... But even this has been rectified over time with Christ.  God was strict in the Old Testament because he had to be.  We were as children in this new world of ours striking out on our own.  Over time, He came closer and closer to us slowly revealing himself to us.  This revelation continues to this day.  But you cannot come to these conclusions alone.  One needs the guidence of the Church.  Not just any Church either, but that is for another discussion...

As for what personal beliefs you have... Well, that is entirely up to you.  God requires nothing of you, but then that is your choice, not His.  One beauty of His love is free will.  You choose what you do.  Even though we chose (and still do choose) seperation, His love continues to bring us back, if we want it.  If not, then again that is your choice and there is no-one to hinder you.  One has every right to not believe as much as someone has to believe.  It is not for either side to impose on the other.  Some love it, some hate it.  Fine.  Non-belief is not going to condemn you to Hell or something necessarily, but that is up to God, not me.  It is by God's grace that we are judged/saved by first.

One trend I see in forums where religion comes up, is that those of Faith (whichever one) get bashed by those who chose not to believe.  It is rare to see a Christian come across as spiteful (not impossible though!).  Non-believers get a rise out of bad mouthing believers based on a presumed past wrong or something... At least in the U.S. we all make our own choices.  Nothing is force fed, so why the Faith bashing?

--OK-- I'm off the soapbox

Last edited by Inspector_Gadget (2006-04-06 11:36:48)

herrr_smity wrote:

how due you know god is a HE

Because He is God the Father

so its a man................hmmm some how that doesnt make sens a supernatural being in the form of a man

herrr_smity wrote:

so its a man................hmmm some how that doesnt make sens a supernatural being in the form of a man

Which also begs the question, that if God is non-corporeal, how would such a gender be assigned.  Also, what about a mother?  So we have a God that is non-corpereal and called the father, who supposedly sent his son to save us, but no mother?

Last edited by Agent_Dung_Bomb (2006-04-06 13:56:39)

Poo Bomb Agent, you are asking questions designed to have a believer question his/her faith.  People believe/don't believe in God for their own reasons.  If you are asking why people believe in God, just go out and ask it.  I will answer your questions even though I am not a believer.

1) To worship Him, to know Him, to love Him.  To experience life.

2) He could not make beings in the perfect likeness of Himself, because He would cease to be the One true God.

3) Free will and the omniscience/omnipotence of God are not one and the same.  Just because He might know everything, does not mean he makes certain things happen.  Imagine owning a goldfish in a bowl.  You know that eventually the goldfish will die, maybe even the time frame that it will, but that does not stop the goldfish from doing what it wants while alive and in the bowl.

4) Not a logical question.  He cannot make something He cannot control, BECAUSE He is all-powerful.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2006-04-06 14:11:46)

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Poo Bomb Agent, you are asking questions designed to have a believer question his/her faith.  People believe/don't believe in God for their own reasons.  If you are asking why people believe in God, just go out and ask it.  I will answer your questions even though I am not a believer.

1) To worship Him, to know Him, to love Him.  To experience life.

2) He could not make beings in the perfect likeness of Himself, because He would cease to be the One true God.

3) Free will and the omniscience/omnipotence of God are not one and the same.  Just because He might know everything, does not mean he makes certain things happen.  Imagine owning a goldfish in a bowl.  You know that eventually the goldfish will die, maybe even the time frame that it will, but that does not stop the goldfish from doing what it wants while alive and in the bowl.

4) Not a logical question.  He cannot make something He cannot control, BECAUSE He is all-powerful.

3 & 4 are in fact contradictions.  Free will means that God has no hand is how you live your life, nor does he know the outcome of that life.  However, God cannot know everything if he doesn't know the end result, thus negating one of the two statements.  You can't have both.  Same thing applies to #4, if he is all powerful, meaning without limits of power, then it would be within his power to make something outside of his power, and therefore, not truly all powerful because something can be outside of his control.

This is Philosophy 101 stuff, but I wanted to bring it up anyway.

One more thing.

Is God one that presides over every little thing that every little thing does? Or does he create and go back to his day job? Or is it in between?

Inspector_Gadget wrote:

God's knowledge of us before, during and after can be termed Divine Providence.  Time as we know it, is part of creation and does not bind God.  God therfore knows us before, during, and after so to speak.  He has the ability to know our choices before they are made but does not interfere due to free will.  You say, "How can God know our choices if it is true free will?"... Just because God CAN know your choices does not mean he determines them.  In the New Testament Jesus knew his betrayer at the Last Supper but did not single him out but instead allowed him to reveal himself by dipping his bread at the same time as foretold by Jesus.
God indeed knows everything because He created us all inside time and space which does not hold Him.
Again, just because He CAN control something does not mean he DOES.

I'm sorry, but your reasoning is flawed.

Why would God create something that could A. rebel against him B. blow itself out of existence?

It doesn't make sense. My belief is that God created the universe and only checked up once in a while (e.g. the period 4000BC - 700AD)

Too often people don't distinguish between God and religion. Religion comes with dogma, and people who swallow that dogma without question can believe they are right and righteous, while everybody else is wrong, misguided, and damned. People who believe that God hates anybody who doesn't accept their particular religion are dangerous - some of them go on Crusades, fly airplanes into buildings, or bomb women's clinics.

If it makes you happy to believe there is a God, go for it; you don't have to prove anything to anybody. But for God's sake, don't twist science and cook the evidence to "prove" bible stories as proof that God exists.  You are only fooling the gullible, and practicing both bad science and bad religion in the process. You can't prove by science that God exists, any more than atheists can prove he doesn't.

On the other hand, disproving Bible stories proves nothing about God. It only shows that people should take bible stories as a parable rather than literal history.

Personally, I am not looking for proof of God's existence. In fact, I would be very disappointed if he turned up and was just like in your bible or mine. I want a God that cares a lot about you treating other people with compassion and respect, and NOT about if you belong to the "right" church, or had sex before marriage, or are gay. Since that is what I want from God, I am morally bound to treat others with compassion and respect, and not judge them about other stuff.

BTW, you won't find me on-line from sundown on Friday to sunset on Saturday because I observe the Sabbath. I find a lot of the rituals of my Jewish faith satisfying and comforting. These traditions have meaning for me if God exists or not.

As you can see, I'm not anti-religion, I'm just against unthinking adherence to dogma. I get really uncomfortable when people stop thinking for themselves and never question the party line. Those are the people who will try to shut you up if you speak heresy. And why shouldn't they, since they know what God wants.

Inspector_Gadget wrote:

Out of love.  God creates out of love and allows us to carry on as we will.  We introduced corruption in seperating from God.  We are created in God's image, thus we can do lots of things, good or bad, but we have limits that He does not.
For you, maybe God did just "set things in motion", but that is because that is all you are willing to accept.

'For you, maybe God did just "set things in motion", but that is because that is all you are willing to accept.'

This I take as an insult. There are people who are far more deep-thinking, observant and smarter than you and I who believe that there is a 'scale' of gods.

Maker only <---------------------------------> Observer/changer only.

'We have introduced corruption in separating from God'

Oh, so you're saying that God didn't realise we WOULD become corrupt? Why didn't he create us so we can't be corrupt? Or are you saying that God is not as omnipotent as you suggest elsewhere?

And don't pull the 'Original Sin' shit on me. You know as well as I do that Genesis was not recounted, if it really did happen, until 440BC.

What is dogma

Apologies in advance

I just needed to get that out. People, please search the web for answers to questions of this type. It makes life much easier.

Spark wrote:

Inspector_Gadget wrote:

God's knowledge of us before, during and after can be termed Divine Providence.  Time as we know it, is part of creation and does not bind God.  God therfore knows us before, during, and after so to speak.  He has the ability to know our choices before they are made but does not interfere due to free will.  You say, "How can God know our choices if it is true free will?"... Just because God CAN know your choices does not mean he determines them.  In the New Testament Jesus knew his betrayer at the Last Supper but did not single him out but instead allowed him to reveal himself by dipping his bread at the same time as foretold by Jesus.
God indeed knows everything because He created us all inside time and space which does not hold Him.
Again, just because He CAN control something does not mean he DOES.

I'm sorry, but your reasoning is flawed.

Why would God create something that could A. rebel against him B. blow itself out of existence?

It doesn't make sense. My belief is that God created the universe and only checked up once in a while (e.g. the period 4000BC - 700AD)

Spark, why is it that you cannot accept that it is not possible to explain god or his actions with human concepts of reasoning ?

It is merely a question wether you believe or not. Atheists cannot prove that god does not exists, while christians cannot prove he does exist. It is all about faith.
Trying to approach this issue with science or logic won't get you anywhere.

While I am not really a believer myself ( although raised in a christian household ), I do believe religion / faith of some form can provide help and support for a lot of people. Morally, emotionally, whatever.

So, as far as I am concerned, everybody can have the religion he/she wants, as long as they don't force their views on others or their religious practices include slaughtering of virgins, murder, rape, etc...You get the idea.

B.Schuss wrote:

Spark wrote:

Inspector_Gadget wrote:

God's knowledge of us before, during and after can be termed Divine Providence.  Time as we know it, is part of creation and does not bind God.  God therfore knows us before, during, and after so to speak.  He has the ability to know our choices before they are made but does not interfere due to free will.  You say, "How can God know our choices if it is true free will?"... Just because God CAN know your choices does not mean he determines them.  In the New Testament Jesus knew his betrayer at the Last Supper but did not single him out but instead allowed him to reveal himself by dipping his bread at the same time as foretold by Jesus.
God indeed knows everything because He created us all inside time and space which does not hold Him.
Again, just because He CAN control something does not mean he DOES.

I'm sorry, but your reasoning is flawed.

Why would God create something that could A. rebel against him B. blow itself out of existence?

It doesn't make sense. My belief is that God created the universe and only checked up once in a while (e.g. the period 4000BC - 700AD)

Spark, why is it that you cannot accept that it is not possible to explain god or his actions with human concepts of reasoning ?

It is merely a question wether you believe or not. Atheists cannot prove that god does not exists, while christians cannot prove he does exist. It is all about faith.
Trying to approach this issue with science or logic won't get you anywhere.

While I am not really a believer myself ( although raised in a christian household ), I do believe religion / faith of some form can provide help and support for a lot of people. Morally, emotionally, whatever.

So, as far as I am concerned, everybody can have the religion he/she wants, as long as they don't force their views on others or their religious practices include slaughtering of virgins, murder, rape, etc...You get the idea.

God created us in his image but by no means as smart as he.  Our minds as humans are far too minute and simplistic that we can try and try and try to understand the magnitude of God or his power or love for us but we cant.  He is not to be understood.  Like Schuss said, its about faith, and you have a choice whether to believe or not to believe and we all will be judged come that day.

very interesting....where was that article...i would like to read that....but your very right....all too right....