^ this is incorrect. pot is illegal in russia.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Poll
What are your thoughts on the Cannibis Debate? [NON-SMOKERS ONLY]
| Cannabis should NOT be legalized | 34% | 34% - 34 | ||||
| Cannabis should be legalized | 61% | 61% - 60 | ||||
| In my country it's legal - LOL @ AMERICA! | 4% | 4% - 4 | ||||
| Total: 98 | ||||||
I see. Good thing I haven't smoked a spliff in Moscow yet. The militia might not dig.Shahter wrote:
^ this is incorrect. pot is illegal in russia.
I need around tree fiddy.
Legalize and vapourize
In most cases prohibition profits crime but it doesn't apply for pot. pot is very mild drug yet too dangerous to ignore it. Unlike alcohol (not going to have a debate over alcohol vs pot here).Bertster7 wrote:
Ei Em wrote:
If it was only their business, but it isn't. I don't want to eat shit, drink piss or even breath poison because someone else is doing it for his/her own pleasure.Turquoise wrote:
Uh... what?
If people want to use a substance that they enjoy but it harms them in the process, that's ok. That's their business.
Legalizing pot would make easier profit for organized crime.
Easier profit for organised crime? Traditionally prohibition maximises profits for organised crime. Why would the opposite be the case in this instance?
In 1960s mafia (Cosa Nostra - American-Italian branch) was considering marijuana but dumped it after noticing how the profits were too small considering all the risks. Marijuana markets were considered too unstable and hardly controllable and during that time almost all the marijuana came from Mexico to USA.
In 1970s Colombia replaced Mexico in marijuana markets/-source, and this was considered as a win for Cosa Nostra. Now Cosa Nostra had more reliable source and easier controllable market. From this point on Mafia has been in marijuana business but profits has never been big. Not even as big as smuggling tobacco.
Marijuana markets share high risks and only fair/manageable profits at the moment because of high "highly intoxicating drugs" surveillance. If marijuana would become legal, like tobacco, mafia (and other organized crime I guess...) could share it wider, easier and for bigger audience with no fear of risking own men, or losing cargo. Mafia could deal marijuana like tobacco but with higher price and for somewhat same audience.
Now, I know people say that nobody would buy "their" over priced marijuana because government could tax "legal" markets now. Same people who buy marijuana now buy smuggled tobacco too. (This is written in 1999 as I don't have newer book in my hands to give more up-to-date facts.) In 1970s Cosa Nostra (note it was only Cosa Nostra, there's nothing to do with other two big mafias Comorrah and 'Ndrangheta.) smuggled over 1 100 000 kilos of tobacco. Between 1973 - 74 minimum cargo was 35000 - 40000 boxes of tobacco (not packs of tobacco).
When Cosa Nostra joined in heroin business tobacco smuggling hindered for some time. But when Borsellino and Giovanni Falcone were killed (exterminated would be more describing word here) Cosa Nostra had to silence their working, cut down heroin business they and decided to get back to tobacco smuggling. After all, smuggling is almost risk free because it's legal, difficult to trace and profit is "ok". Some even believe that tobacco smuggling has reached it highest point now. That tobacco, Cosa Nostra smuggles, is re-sold to every day shops without paying taxes. In those shops everyday customers buy tobacco that is smuggled by Cosa Nostra. Smuggled tobacco is incredibly difficult to tell apart from "honest" tobacco dealers.
Tobacco itself has nothing to do with marijuana but if (and when...?) marijuana becomes legal it will reach the same ring. Same organized crime that deals marijuana now will deal it after it's been legalized.
Of course it would be perfect if for marijuana situation will reach same point as in years 1919 - 1932 for alcohol. Nobody cared much about alcohol smuggling. Not police, judges, politics. Nobody. Everyone get their share and Cosa Nostra made about 2 billion dollars during that time. As they said "it was just too good to be true".
Ah, true but I was mainly saying that I have to smell cig smoke everyday no matter what I do. In this case, it's not everybody's own business what they do because it affects me too. Directly indirectly.Bertster7 wrote:
As for the first point, just because something is legal doesn't mean it is forced upon you. You don't usually get people holding you down and forcing you to drink alcohol - unless of course you're a member of a rugby team or something like that....
(When I talk about organized crime I mean mafia. If people here know anything how MAFIA (I mean mafia... not Russian mafia or any any other somewhat organized gangs/groups) work they understand me. But maybe some of you get the hint of how big things I'm talking about when I say that there's believed to be 150000 - 400000 people working for mafia. Majority of them doesn't know to be working for mafia, then there's about 5000 honor men working directly and only in favor of mafia and politics working in favor of family. These facts are from between 2003 -2006.)
There's more to organised crime than the mafia. Much, much more. If you think organised crime and cannabis don't have extremely string ties at the moment you're deluding yourself. Maybe there is no link between the mafia and cannabis - but there are to other organised criminals. I know of lots of dodgy Yardie gangs, Triads and dodgy Turkish gangs that sell weed and looking at the police reports on such matters, these sorts of occurences are extremely widespread. Most cannabis in the UK will have links to major organised crime (not all though and you can avoid all this unpleasantness, it's just more difficult). The IRA used to use cannabis smuggling as a source of revenue. Al Qaeda currently use cannabis smuggling as a source of revenue. The argument that it is not big business to organised crime, whilst it may be true as far as the mafia are concerned, is not very convincing.Ei Em wrote:
In most cases prohibition profits crime but it doesn't apply for pot. pot is very mild drug yet too dangerous to ignore it. Unlike alcohol (not going to have a debate over alcohol vs pot here).Bertster7 wrote:
Ei Em wrote:
If it was only their business, but it isn't. I don't want to eat shit, drink piss or even breath poison because someone else is doing it for his/her own pleasure.
Legalizing pot would make easier profit for organized crime.
Easier profit for organised crime? Traditionally prohibition maximises profits for organised crime. Why would the opposite be the case in this instance?
In 1960s mafia (Cosa Nostra - American-Italian branch) was considering marijuana but dumped it after noticing how the profits were too small considering all the risks. Marijuana markets were considered too unstable and hardly controllable and during that time almost all the marijuana came from Mexico to USA.
In 1970s Colombia replaced Mexico in marijuana markets/-source, and this was considered as a win for Cosa Nostra. Now Cosa Nostra had more reliable source and easier controllable market. From this point on Mafia has been in marijuana business but profits has never been big. Not even as big as smuggling tobacco.
Marijuana markets share high risks and only fair/manageable profits at the moment because of high "highly intoxicating drugs" surveillance. If marijuana would become legal, like tobacco, mafia (and other organized crime I guess...) could share it wider, easier and for bigger audience with no fear of risking own men, or losing cargo. Mafia could deal marijuana like tobacco but with higher price and for somewhat same audience.
Now, I know people say that nobody would buy "their" over priced marijuana because government could tax "legal" markets now. Same people who buy marijuana now buy smuggled tobacco too. (This is written in 1999 as I don't have newer book in my hands to give more up-to-date facts.) In 1970s Cosa Nostra (note it was only Cosa Nostra, there's nothing to do with other two big mafias Comorrah and 'Ndrangheta.) smuggled over 1 100 000 kilos of tobacco. Between 1973 - 74 minimum cargo was 35000 - 40000 boxes of tobacco (not packs of tobacco).
When Cosa Nostra joined in heroin business tobacco smuggling hindered for some time. But when Borsellino and Giovanni Falcone were killed (exterminated would be more describing word here) Cosa Nostra had to silence their working, cut down heroin business they and decided to get back to tobacco smuggling. After all, smuggling is almost risk free because it's legal, difficult to trace and profit is "ok". Some even believe that tobacco smuggling has reached it highest point now. That tobacco, Cosa Nostra smuggles, is re-sold to every day shops without paying taxes. In those shops everyday customers buy tobacco that is smuggled by Cosa Nostra. Smuggled tobacco is incredibly difficult to tell apart from "honest" tobacco dealers.
Tobacco itself has nothing to do with marijuana but if (and when...?) marijuana becomes legal it will reach the same ring. Same organized crime that deals marijuana now will deal it after it's been legalized.
Of course it would be perfect if for marijuana situation will reach same point as in years 1919 - 1932 for alcohol. Nobody cared much about alcohol smuggling. Not police, judges, politics. Nobody. Everyone get their share and Cosa Nostra made about 2 billion dollars during that time. As they said "it was just too good to be true".Ah, true but I was mainly saying that I have to smell cig smoke everyday no matter what I do. In this case, it's not everybody's own business what they do because it affects me too. Directly indirectly.Bertster7 wrote:
As for the first point, just because something is legal doesn't mean it is forced upon you. You don't usually get people holding you down and forcing you to drink alcohol - unless of course you're a member of a rugby team or something like that....
(When I talk about organized crime I mean mafia. If people here know anything how MAFIA (I mean mafia... not Russian mafia or any any other somewhat organized gangs/groups) work they understand me. But maybe some of you get the hint of how big things I'm talking about when I say that there's believed to be 150000 - 400000 people working for mafia. Majority of them doesn't know to be working for mafia, then there's about 5000 honor men working directly and only in favor of mafia and politics working in favor of family. These facts are from between 2003 -2006.)
You say you have to smell cigarette smoke everyday? Why is that? Where? I know throughout the EU it is illegal to smoke inside in any sort of business or enclosed public area.
Then you might want to point out more organized "industry" than mafia. Noticing that Mafiamakes about 30 billion US dollars a year with drug trafficking, extortion, arms trafficking, loan sharking and controlling contracts. This is only what Sicilian Mafia makes, not even USA branch is included here. (There's very little information available from USA's branch for public) Considering that these are BAD days for Cosa Nostra I don't think there is much greater organized crime.Bertser7 wrote:
There's more to organised crime than the mafia. Much, much more. If you think organised crime and cannabis don't have extremely string ties at the moment you're deluding yourself.
And it's a good thing I didn't say cannabis and organized crime don't have ties at the moment. I say it will be worse (for "us" honest" people) and good for them if(/and when) it is legalized.
I have a question though, have you read many books considering Sicilian mafia? If not, I recommend. You would be blown away when you find out what they've done in USA, South America, and of course, Italy. You might find it absurd that Hollywood would be nothing without mafia, there would most likely be no Godfather trilogy (funny thing is one family head denied the use of word "mafia" in first godfather movie), seven time prime minister of Italy Giulio Andreotti would have never been in charge without Cosa Nostra (at least not that long). Might also consider twice before eating in joint bars. In 1980 American Italian mafia bought tons of spoiled meat saying they would to use it for mink food, but in reality they treated that meat with formaldehyde to prevent it rotting more and sold it to some hamburger enterprise.
Also, that other "organized crime" selling drugs is nonsense. Already in 1980s American-Italian branch of mafia controlled 95% of all the drug business in US continent. Those dodgy yard gangs and other gangs consist of that left over sellers or they are underselling mafia's drugs.
Now, I didn't say it isn't big business in our standards but it sure isn't big business compared to other business mafia is running. But hey, as Meyer Lansy proudly said about mafia: We are bigger corporation than U.S steel.
Good start would be reading John Dickie's Cosa Nostra and Roberto Saviano's Gomorrah. I would recommend reading a book made by Ilkka Ahtokivi's Joten me päätimme tappaa hänet (so we decided to kill him) but sadly this book has not been translated to English. Maybe DonFck will read it and translate it for all of us... *cough*
I smell it on streets and almost everywhere in open area. Can't really avoid that. Can't even say anything about it either.Bertser7 wrote:
You say you have to smell cigarette smoke everyday? Why is that? Where? I know throughout the EU it is illegal to smoke inside in any sort of business or enclosed public area.
The Italian mafia might have been big business a few decades ago, but today, the Mexican drug cartels are the dominant ones. Pot is a major market for them, along with many other drugs like cocaine, heroin, and crystal meth.
Last edited by Turquoise (2009-07-31 16:54:46)
Well, for a start there is virtually no mafia prescence in most countries.Ei Em wrote:
Then you might want to point out more organized "industry" than mafia. Noticing that Mafiamakes about 30 billion US dollars a year with drug trafficking, extortion, arms trafficking, loan sharking and controlling contracts. This is only what Sicilian Mafia makes, not even USA branch is included here. (There's very little information available from USA's branch for public) Considering that these are BAD days for Cosa Nostra I don't think there is much greater organized crime.Bertser7 wrote:
There's more to organised crime than the mafia. Much, much more. If you think organised crime and cannabis don't have extremely string ties at the moment you're deluding yourself.
What is your obsession with the mafia? They are really completely irrelevant to this. You say they are not heavily involved in dealing cannabis, so they're not really a factor here. Other cartels are and prohibition makes their lives easier - particularly the targeting of growers at source policy enacted by the US which drives more and more profits to the bigger organisations.
Milton Friedman wrote:
See, if you look at the drug war from a purely economic point of view, the role of the government is to protect the drug cartel. That's literally true.
Doesn't fit with what the experts say or with any sort of historical precedents. If you care to provide examples to the contrary, please do so. Seeing as this was the point you were originally addressing and so far you've provided no reasoning to back up your assertions on this point, just spouted a lot of barely relevant drivel about the mafia.Ei Em wrote:
And it's a good thing I didn't say cannabis and organized crime don't have ties at the moment. I say it will be worse (for "us" honest" people) and good for them if(/and when) it is legalized.
No and I'm not very interested in doing so. I can't say I care about the mafia in the slightest.Ei Em wrote:
I have a question though, have you read many books considering Sicilian mafia?
Which has what to do with "joint bars" exactly? For there to be "joint bars", by which I assume you mean something like the coffeeshop system in the Netherlands, you need legalisation. When you have that you have diminished or non-existent ties to organised crime. The fact that the mafia have sold some spoilled meat to be used in burgers in the past is not in the slightest bit relevant to anything.Ei Em wrote:
Might also consider twice before eating in joint bars. In 1980 American Italian mafia bought tons of spoiled meat saying they would to use it for mink food, but in reality they treated that meat with formaldehyde to prevent it rotting more and sold it to some hamburger enterprise.
Bullshit. If you think most drugs distributed through organised crime have mafia connections, you're deluding yourself - particularly in the case of cannabis. If we were talking about heroin or cocaine then maybe so, but not cannabis.Ei Em wrote:
Also, that other "organized crime" selling drugs is nonsense. Already in 1980s American-Italian branch of mafia controlled 95% of all the drug business in US continent. Those dodgy yard gangs and other gangs consist of that left over sellers or they are underselling mafia's drugs.
No, you can't really say anything about it. Because it's pefectly ok. You're out in the fresh air.Ei Em wrote:
I smell it on streets and almost everywhere in open area. Can't really avoid that. Can't even say anything about it either.Bertser7 wrote:
You say you have to smell cigarette smoke everyday? Why is that? Where? I know throughout the EU it is illegal to smoke inside in any sort of business or enclosed public area.
I never said they aren't heavily involved in dealing cannabis. I said cannabis isn't as good profit as many of the other subjects of dealing. Not even near as good.
What is that Milton Friedman quote supposed to mean? When you really get it in to your head that mafia has their own politics that are in making laws for everyone of us? When you understand that you might get a grasp what is going on. And no, don't spew that I might be some loon conspiracy theorist spewing nonsense about our all politics doing that sort of shady stuff. There's enormous amount of proof about mafia politics.
When anti-mafia comity was created it was meant to bust all mafia out of Italy. Irony is that two of the members who belonged to that comity were also men of honor in Cosa Nostra. Of course they got caught after several years but only after hundreds of deaths in Italy. This created strange atmosphere in Italy, where you can trust if you can't trust even the people who should help fighting against mafia?
Mafia's persence is virtually everywhere. You might be interested that one of 'Ndrangheta bosses was just hanged in Scotland. When a boss of a super crime industry is hanged other side of Europe you might understand that they are not only in Italy. Of course Italy has it's own ways and presence of a mafia is more obvious there, but in other countries mafia prefers infiltrate in politics and legal business so it's harder to detect. Also that way the can expand their control over markets.
That joint bar quote, and every other example there, was merely to show how far mafia has reached and what it can do without "breaking" "law". If you just bothered to read about mafia...
Now, I am also sligthly annoyed by the fact that you keep insisting me that I am deluding here eventhough it is you who won't even bother to read about mafia. If you just want point some good sources and other information (books, documents, etc, etc...) that prove mafia isn't biggest crime organization and meanwhile most politically influenced, I am all happy to read about it.
If you have actually nothing to add, you might just stop saying that I am deluding. Do like Turquoise, for example, he pointed out major fact there without saying I'm deluding. It is true that mafia was big in direct drug deliver few decades ago. But they still control the market.
This might interest you AFP
My point here, with this mafia "obsession" is to show you that it isn't that black and white. There is something bigger behind those street dealers and funky pizzos.
Also, I'm leaving for several weeks again so I won't be here replying. If you keep this alive, which I hardly believe, I might come back and reply.
And for the record, I don't have any obsession about mafia but you need to expand your view when you talk about drugs. Might as well read some labor union history from US and get a clue how much mafia controlled, and still controls, in USA.
What is that Milton Friedman quote supposed to mean? When you really get it in to your head that mafia has their own politics that are in making laws for everyone of us? When you understand that you might get a grasp what is going on. And no, don't spew that I might be some loon conspiracy theorist spewing nonsense about our all politics doing that sort of shady stuff. There's enormous amount of proof about mafia politics.
When anti-mafia comity was created it was meant to bust all mafia out of Italy. Irony is that two of the members who belonged to that comity were also men of honor in Cosa Nostra. Of course they got caught after several years but only after hundreds of deaths in Italy. This created strange atmosphere in Italy, where you can trust if you can't trust even the people who should help fighting against mafia?
Mafia's persence is virtually everywhere. You might be interested that one of 'Ndrangheta bosses was just hanged in Scotland. When a boss of a super crime industry is hanged other side of Europe you might understand that they are not only in Italy. Of course Italy has it's own ways and presence of a mafia is more obvious there, but in other countries mafia prefers infiltrate in politics and legal business so it's harder to detect. Also that way the can expand their control over markets.
That joint bar quote, and every other example there, was merely to show how far mafia has reached and what it can do without "breaking" "law". If you just bothered to read about mafia...
DEA had an report of Cosa Nostra controlling 1/3 of whole world drug markets in 1980s. In 1993 they handed large parts of these markets for Colombian sellers and 'Ndrangheta because of massive mafia arrests in Italy, and USA had not leader of leaders between mafia families (this is also reason why there isn't much information about US mafia at the hands now. No big meetings between mafia heads happens anymore). But Cosa Nostra didn't hand these as a free package, they tax literally every larger drug load that is moving through "their" territory. Considering that almost whole US is mafia's territory and market is controlled by them, they get some nice money out of it.Bertser7 wrote:
Bullshit. If you think most drugs distributed through organised crime have mafia connections, you're deluding yourself - particularly in the case of cannabis. If we were talking about heroin or cocaine then maybe so, but not cannabis.
Now, I am also sligthly annoyed by the fact that you keep insisting me that I am deluding here eventhough it is you who won't even bother to read about mafia. If you just want point some good sources and other information (books, documents, etc, etc...) that prove mafia isn't biggest crime organization and meanwhile most politically influenced, I am all happy to read about it.
If you have actually nothing to add, you might just stop saying that I am deluding. Do like Turquoise, for example, he pointed out major fact there without saying I'm deluding. It is true that mafia was big in direct drug deliver few decades ago. But they still control the market.
This might interest you AFP
Hardly a fresh air if I have to smell it all the time. Isn't that contradicting?Bertser7 wrote:
You're out in the fresh air.
My point here, with this mafia "obsession" is to show you that it isn't that black and white. There is something bigger behind those street dealers and funky pizzos.
Also, I'm leaving for several weeks again so I won't be here replying. If you keep this alive, which I hardly believe, I might come back and reply.
This is everything I needed to know. I don't debate with a guy who reads every second page of the book and believes what suits his belief best. It is exactly same as debating about evolution with people who believe earth was created by a God in a few days.Bertser7 wrote:
No and I'm not very interested in doing so. I can't say I care about the mafia in the slightest.
And for the record, I don't have any obsession about mafia but you need to expand your view when you talk about drugs. Might as well read some labor union history from US and get a clue how much mafia controlled, and still controls, in USA.
I don't doubt that the Italian mafia still has influence here, but again, the Mexican cartels are the ones with the power now.
I was thinking in sauna that I should come here to edit few things but now as you replied I might answer.Turquoise wrote:
I don't doubt that the Italian mafia still has influence here, but again, the Mexican cartels are the ones with the power now.
It's true that those in power over drug source and and distribute are in South of USA at the moment. But market is heavily under control of mafia in USA. Without paying tax to mafia it is very difficult to move without getting caught. Now I'm not denying that Mexican cartel aren't the ones profiting more out of these sold drugs. But mafia is very good partner. Mafia basically never leaves anything unfinished, mafia never steals (irony), nobody steals from mafia, mafia has big political influence and mafia has longest and most thriving network.
I was supposed to edit something but slow thinking isn't working now...
Mhmh...
Ah, anyway. I am more that happy if you prove me, Bertser7 (or anybody else), that mafia isn't the biggest one out there. I will update myself and admit that I was wrong if you show me the proof/document. I view everything (at least I try to) from neutral point of view, and I don't want create strong opinions in my head.
Also, there's no point mocking. Your or anybody's text isn't going to sound any stronger if you say I am deluding, ignorant or just plain ass. All it does, for me, is to crow ignorance towards your agility understand things or having other view points.