I agree with that.lowing wrote:
NO! High paying jobs with a high quality of life SHOULD be your incentive, not govt. mandated payscales.Pubic wrote:
A minimum wage should be high enough that it provides a real incentive to work instead of opting for welfare, and to ensure that workers aren't exploited.
That is ridiculous Turquoise, and I hate that you think I would endorse situations like that, in those days it was slavery and indentured servitude that drove corporations. People had no choice, no schooling, NO way out, no govt. programs in place to help. Today that is not the case. TODAY, if you are not educated or marketable that is ALL on you and NOT on the govt. or the taxpayer. Laws exist now to protect the worker from conditions that existed back then.Turquoise wrote:
Honestly, I'm not sure if lowing is against that, nor would many self-professed Objectivists seem to be.Cybargs wrote:
Mininum wage laws are a barrier to protect the country against strong corporations. I'm pretty sure none of you would want to go back where Tycoons like Rockerfeller and Carnegie owned the country. It creates a HUGE gap between the rich and the poor. A strong middle class is essential for any 1st world nation.
Minimum wage should be set at the level where it prevents illegal aliens from benefitting from its existence.
they don't benefit from it, they are paid lower than it. this is a problem because they artifically drive down the worth of a job with unfair benefits as NO taxes.Pug wrote:
Minimum wage should be set at the level where it prevents illegal aliens from benefitting from its existence.
this is a problem EASILY resolved, then the market could truely value the worth of job on an even playing field for all legal citizens.
Last edited by lowing (2009-07-27 10:17:03)
Its a little more complex than this but...lowing wrote:
they don't benefit from it, they are paid lower than it. this is a problem because they artifically drive down the worth of a job with unfair benefits as NO taxes.Pug wrote:
Minimum wage should be set at the level where it prevents illegal aliens from benefitting from its existence.
this is a problem EASILY resolved, then the market could truely value the worth of job on an even playing field for all legal citizens.
If most of the illegals are paid lower than it (some are paid well above it btw), wouldn't raising the minimum wage increase the opportunity to be paid more if your an illegal?
Sure, some more citizens will be more inclined to do minimum wage work, but in fact I believe that you are effectively raising the wages of all of the employees.
How?
Worker: "I'm not doing that work...it's just above minimum wage. Pay me more."
Worker's manager: "Wait, I'm barely being paid more than the workers now. Pay me more."
Division manager: "Wait, I'm barely being paid more than the manager. Pay me more."
Company: "Due to increase in payroll costs, we have instituted a price increase. But we are looking into the possibility of hiring more illegals to keep our costs down".
Sure there are laws to protect the workers from harm. But companies and employers can still pay fuck all even if you got decent skill.lowing wrote:
That is ridiculous Turquoise, and I hate that you think I would endorse situations like that, in those days it was slavery and indentured servitude that drove corporations. People had no choice, no schooling, NO way out, no govt. programs in place to help. Today that is not the case. TODAY, if you are not educated or marketable that is ALL on you and NOT on the govt. or the taxpayer. Laws exist now to protect the worker from conditions that existed back then.Turquoise wrote:
Honestly, I'm not sure if lowing is against that, nor would many self-professed Objectivists seem to be.Cybargs wrote:
Mininum wage laws are a barrier to protect the country against strong corporations. I'm pretty sure none of you would want to go back where Tycoons like Rockerfeller and Carnegie owned the country. It creates a HUGE gap between the rich and the poor. A strong middle class is essential for any 1st world nation.
Why do you all think the richest countries pay quite well for their jobs? Higher salaries = more consumers. It's also that simple. The government would want to keep the economy rolling for a fair bit by having mininum wage (teenage consumers etc).
nope, illegals are not subjected to minimum wages laws. If they make more then that is because they are doing work that is worth more ( but still cheaper) than a legal citizen who has to give 30% of his pay to the govt.Pug wrote:
Its a little more complex than this but...lowing wrote:
they don't benefit from it, they are paid lower than it. this is a problem because they artifically drive down the worth of a job with unfair benefits as NO taxes.Pug wrote:
Minimum wage should be set at the level where it prevents illegal aliens from benefitting from its existence.
this is a problem EASILY resolved, then the market could truely value the worth of job on an even playing field for all legal citizens.
If most of the illegals are paid lower than it (some are paid well above it btw), wouldn't raising the minimum wage increase the opportunity to be paid more if your an illegal?
Sure, some more citizens will be more inclined to do minimum wage work, but in fact I believe that you are effectively raising the wages of all of the employees.
How?
Worker: "I'm not doing that work...it's just above minimum wage. Pay me more."
Worker's manager: "Wait, I'm barely being paid more than the workers now. Pay me more."
Division manager: "Wait, I'm barely being paid more than the manager. Pay me more."
Company: "Due to increase in payroll costs, we have instituted a price increase. But we are looking into the possibility of hiring more illegals to keep our costs down".
raising minimum wage does NOTHING exept force the rest of us to subsidize failure, it is just dressed differently.
minimum wage jobs are supposed to be for teenage/college kids looking for beer money, it is not supposed to be living wage. If you are banking on Obama to give you a raise over your company, then you are a loser and made some serious fucked up choices in life, that I should not be forced to pay for.Cybargs wrote:
Sure there are laws to protect the workers from harm. But companies and employers can still pay fuck all even if you got decent skill.lowing wrote:
That is ridiculous Turquoise, and I hate that you think I would endorse situations like that, in those days it was slavery and indentured servitude that drove corporations. People had no choice, no schooling, NO way out, no govt. programs in place to help. Today that is not the case. TODAY, if you are not educated or marketable that is ALL on you and NOT on the govt. or the taxpayer. Laws exist now to protect the worker from conditions that existed back then.Turquoise wrote:
Honestly, I'm not sure if lowing is against that, nor would many self-professed Objectivists seem to be.
Why do you all think the richest countries pay quite well for their jobs? Higher salaries = more consumers. It's also that simple. The government would want to keep the economy rolling for a fair bit by having mininum wage (teenage consumers etc).
I'm not quite sure what you are talking about at all.lowing wrote:
nope, illegals are not subjected to minimum wages laws. If they make more then that is because they are doing work that is worth more ( but still cheaper) than a legal citizen who has to give 30% of his pay to the govt.
raising minimum wage does NOTHING exept force the rest of us to subsidize failure, it is just dressed differently.
My point is the following:
There is a direct relationship between:
Minimum wage and the number of illegals
Minimum wage and inflation
There is an indirect relationship between:
Minimum wage and the number of US-based jobs
Minimum wage and the job creation rate
Minimum wage and GDP
And for clarity:
Illegals are not subject to US law (duh)
have no idea how you are putting all of this together, it is simple supply and demand.Pug wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you are talking about at all.lowing wrote:
nope, illegals are not subjected to minimum wages laws. If they make more then that is because they are doing work that is worth more ( but still cheaper) than a legal citizen who has to give 30% of his pay to the govt.
raising minimum wage does NOTHING exept force the rest of us to subsidize failure, it is just dressed differently.
My point is the following:
There is a direct relationship between:
Minimum wage and the number of illegals
Minimum wage and inflation
There is an indirect relationship between:
Minimum wage and the number of US-based jobs
Minimum wage and the job creation rate
Minimum wage and GDP
And for clarity:
Illegals are not subject to US law (duh)
also with regards to this: "wouldn't raising the minimum wage increase the opportunity to be paid more if your an illegal?" I already said illegals should not be a factor the second you inforce the laws regarding hiring the fuckers.
Either way isn't it more beneficial to have a higher mininum wage? I doubt that CEO's who make billions would be greatly affected by the change. CEO's make way more than the average employee compared to 30 years ago.lowing wrote:
minimum wage jobs are supposed to be for teenage/college kids looking for beer money, it is not supposed to be living wage. If you are banking on Obama to give you a raise over your company, then you are a loser and made some serious fucked up choices in life, that I should not be forced to pay for.Cybargs wrote:
Sure there are laws to protect the workers from harm. But companies and employers can still pay fuck all even if you got decent skill.lowing wrote:
That is ridiculous Turquoise, and I hate that you think I would endorse situations like that, in those days it was slavery and indentured servitude that drove corporations. People had no choice, no schooling, NO way out, no govt. programs in place to help. Today that is not the case. TODAY, if you are not educated or marketable that is ALL on you and NOT on the govt. or the taxpayer. Laws exist now to protect the worker from conditions that existed back then.
Why do you all think the richest countries pay quite well for their jobs? Higher salaries = more consumers. It's also that simple. The government would want to keep the economy rolling for a fair bit by having mininum wage (teenage consumers etc).
Absolutely not! since it is small buisiness that it affects the most. Most big corporations already pay higher than that anyway. FORCING small business owners to pay more cuttining their profits even more, durinf a time like this can shut them down if the consumers is not willing to eat the cost. Then the workers will be making LESS than mimimum wage for sure.Cybargs wrote:
Either way isn't it more beneficial to have a higher mininum wage? I doubt that CEO's who make billions would be greatly affected by the change. CEO's make way more than the average employee compared to 30 years ago.lowing wrote:
minimum wage jobs are supposed to be for teenage/college kids looking for beer money, it is not supposed to be living wage. If you are banking on Obama to give you a raise over your company, then you are a loser and made some serious fucked up choices in life, that I should not be forced to pay for.Cybargs wrote:
Sure there are laws to protect the workers from harm. But companies and employers can still pay fuck all even if you got decent skill.
Why do you all think the richest countries pay quite well for their jobs? Higher salaries = more consumers. It's also that simple. The government would want to keep the economy rolling for a fair bit by having mininum wage (teenage consumers etc).
Large companies are for it as it increases the costs for smaller businesses that typically save costs by employing employees less experienced.
another good reason as to why minimum wage is wrong.Harmor wrote:
Large companies are for it as it increases the costs for smaller businesses that typically save costs by employing employees less experienced.
So you support exploitation of workers? Are you a commie or do you support slavery?lowing wrote:
NO! High paying jobs with a high quality of life SHOULD be your incentive, not govt. mandated payscales.Pubic wrote:
A minimum wage should be high enough that it provides a real incentive to work instead of opting for welfare, and to ensure that workers aren't exploited.
Haven't you heard? Anyone and everyone can be a CEO if they try hard enough and have a dream! Being stuck in lower pay classes is a sign of lazyness.Pubic wrote:
So you support exploitation of workers? Are you a commie or do you support slavery?lowing wrote:
NO! High paying jobs with a high quality of life SHOULD be your incentive, not govt. mandated payscales.Pubic wrote:
A minimum wage should be high enough that it provides a real incentive to work instead of opting for welfare, and to ensure that workers aren't exploited.
Seriously, who believes that?
I need around tree fiddy.
Not really sure how you came to that conclusion from my post, but to answer, no I do not. I support paying an employee what they are worth to a company. The greater the value that employee is, the more he/she is worth. IF the employee does not think they are getting properly compensated, they are free to leave and find an employer that agrees with their self proclaimed worth.Pubic wrote:
So you support exploitation of workers? Are you a commie or do you support slavery?lowing wrote:
NO! High paying jobs with a high quality of life SHOULD be your incentive, not govt. mandated payscales.Pubic wrote:
A minimum wage should be high enough that it provides a real incentive to work instead of opting for welfare, and to ensure that workers aren't exploited.
Haven't you heard? education, training, clean criminal record, drug free etc..... are the tell tale traits that employers find marketable. I am ont a CEO and guess what, I make a pretty good living.DonFck wrote:
Haven't you heard? Anyone and everyone can be a CEO if they try hard enough and have a dream! Being stuck in lower pay classes is a sign of lazyness.Pubic wrote:
So you support exploitation of workers? Are you a commie or do you support slavery?lowing wrote:
NO! High paying jobs with a high quality of life SHOULD be your incentive, not govt. mandated payscales.
Seriously, who believes that?
Minimum wages within sensible bounds tend to have little if any influence on employment levels as they get swamped by other more significant influences on the economy. Even if you take the some of the most pessimistic predictions about the unemployment effects of raising the minimum wage, the poorest in society still benefit as the extra money while working more than makes up for the small increses in time spent unemployed.
Not everyone had the opportunity in life like you did.lowing wrote:
Haven't you heard? education, training, clean criminal record, drug free etc..... are the tell tale traits that employers find marketable. I am ont a CEO and guess what, I make a pretty good living.DonFck wrote:
Haven't you heard? Anyone and everyone can be a CEO if they try hard enough and have a dream! Being stuck in lower pay classes is a sign of lazyness.Pubic wrote:
So you support exploitation of workers? Are you a commie or do you support slavery?
Seriously, who believes that?
Perhaps I should have added a third option: ignorant of human nature. Specifically, greed.lowing wrote:
Not really sure how you came to that conclusion from my post, but to answer, no I do not. I support paying an employee what they are worth to a company. The greater the value that employee is, the more he/she is worth. IF the employee does not think they are getting properly compensated, they are free to leave and find an employer that agrees with their self proclaimed worth.Pubic wrote:
So you support exploitation of workers? Are you a commie or do you support slavery?lowing wrote:
NO! High paying jobs with a high quality of life SHOULD be your incentive, not govt. mandated payscales.
Right, but the laws AREN'T being enforced are they? And if that's the case...how valid is that argument?lowing wrote:
have no idea how you are putting all of this together, it is simple supply and demand.Pug wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you are talking about at all.lowing wrote:
nope, illegals are not subjected to minimum wages laws. If they make more then that is because they are doing work that is worth more ( but still cheaper) than a legal citizen who has to give 30% of his pay to the govt.
raising minimum wage does NOTHING exept force the rest of us to subsidize failure, it is just dressed differently.
My point is the following:
There is a direct relationship between:
Minimum wage and the number of illegals
Minimum wage and inflation
There is an indirect relationship between:
Minimum wage and the number of US-based jobs
Minimum wage and the job creation rate
Minimum wage and GDP
And for clarity:
Illegals are not subject to US law (duh)
also with regards to this: "wouldn't raising the minimum wage increase the opportunity to be paid more if your an illegal?" I already said illegals should not be a factor the second you inforce the laws regarding hiring the fuckers.
As far as putting this altogether - the impact of a minimum wage is pretty well documented. I'm just stating the easy stuff. If you want to really piss yourself off - google the terms.
Also,
Have you figured out what I'm really saying?Pug wrote:
Minimum wage should be set at the level where it prevents illegal aliens from benefitting from its existence.
Last edited by Pug (2009-07-28 07:46:34)
i say due away with minimum wage...
who's going to work at a place making 3$ an hour.... the business owners would have to raise there rates to satisfy the employees.
who's going to work at a place making 3$ an hour.... the business owners would have to raise there rates to satisfy the employees.
It affects those that employ. It cuts into their profits, and if they are not successful in passing that extra cost on to the customer, they fail. It is not big corporations this affects it is small business owners who are struggling enough as it is.PureFodder wrote:
Minimum wages within sensible bounds tend to have little if any influence on employment levels as they get swamped by other more significant influences on the economy. Even if you take the some of the most pessimistic predictions about the unemployment effects of raising the minimum wage, the poorest in society still benefit as the extra money while working more than makes up for the small increses in time spent unemployed.
Oh yeah I had huge opportunities. I graduated HS and joined the military. From there I built a career. I was not in jail, on drugs, or in trouble. I worked and I climbed.Cybargs wrote:
Not everyone had the opportunity in life like you did.lowing wrote:
Haven't you heard? education, training, clean criminal record, drug free etc..... are the tell tale traits that employers find marketable. I am ont a CEO and guess what, I make a pretty good living.DonFck wrote:
Haven't you heard? Anyone and everyone can be a CEO if they try hard enough and have a dream! Being stuck in lower pay classes is a sign of lazyness.
Seriously, who believes that?
So just how many people do think we are talking about that just didn't have the opportunity to finish HS and get a fuckin job, that was not in trouble of some kind or lazy? What percentage do you really think are in situations that are not self induced in one form or another?