Don't feed the trolls.
Pages: 1 2
- Index »
- Community »
- Debate and Serious Talk »
- He needed "more religious instruction" to be a sucide bomber,
That wasn't the point though. The point was that the TEACHINGS don't say that, which is what lowing was asserting.Stubbee wrote:
THIS is the problem.Bertster7 wrote:
Cam's already done that on multiple occasions, but you just ignore it.lowing wrote:
Uhhh yes they are following his teaching and example, with over 600 beheading comitted by Muhammad himself, please explain how they are not following his lead
Peoples of the book are protected under Islamic law. They have the status of dhimmi a word which has its roots in pact of protection. The stance taken in the Koran is that the peoples of the book should be protected. That's what the teachings are. You ignore this, which makes all your points completely redundant. This is a fundamental point you have continually failed to address. There is nothing in the Islamic teachings condoning violence used towards peoples of the book.
In practice treatment of non-Muslims has varied dramatically. Typically being good when Islamic nations have been in positions of power and bad when they have been in more weakened states.
While most Muslims (like the majority of people in the major religions) are tolerant people there will always be a few extreme nutjobs twisting their beliefs to justify all manner of behaviour.
Wahabism and Wahabis DO NOT believe in the peoples of the book. They even kill other Muslims because they have 'strayed from the faith'.
You could say Falwellism (sorry Jerry first name popped into my head) in protestant theology or OpusDeiism in catholic theology. They are all considered to be ultra conservative (i.e more true to their respective versions of their religion)
My point is that Wahabis TWIST the teachings of the Koran for their purposes. Extremists are like statisticians, able to take anything and twist it into something they can claim as 'truth'. These people could twist Dr Seuss into evil rhetoric. So in a sense lowing is right but he generalizes too damned much. He is a 'kill them all and let god sort it out type of guy.'Bertster7 wrote:
That wasn't the point though. The point was that the TEACHINGS don't say that, which is what lowing was asserting.Stubbee wrote:
THIS is the problem.Bertster7 wrote:
Cam's already done that on multiple occasions, but you just ignore it.
Peoples of the book are protected under Islamic law. They have the status of dhimmi a word which has its roots in pact of protection. The stance taken in the Koran is that the peoples of the book should be protected. That's what the teachings are. You ignore this, which makes all your points completely redundant. This is a fundamental point you have continually failed to address. There is nothing in the Islamic teachings condoning violence used towards peoples of the book.
In practice treatment of non-Muslims has varied dramatically. Typically being good when Islamic nations have been in positions of power and bad when they have been in more weakened states.
While most Muslims (like the majority of people in the major religions) are tolerant people there will always be a few extreme nutjobs twisting their beliefs to justify all manner of behaviour.
Wahabism and Wahabis DO NOT believe in the peoples of the book. They even kill other Muslims because they have 'strayed from the faith'.
You could say Falwellism (sorry Jerry first name popped into my head) in protestant theology or OpusDeiism in catholic theology. They are all considered to be ultra conservative (i.e more true to their respective versions of their religion)
So in a sense Wahabis are teaching their followers their version of the Koran. They take verses out of context or mix and match to get what they want and believe. They preach hate. Hate is a very powerful emotion, easily twisted and focused especially on the young. Wahabis do it. KKK do it. That idiot family from the States protesting against US vets and gays does it. Cults do it.
Last edited by Stubbee (2009-07-24 10:04:33)
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
Yes these things get twisted, but that's what extremists do. This is not unique to Islam, as has been pointed out many, many times (and as you have acknowledged in your post). What was under discussion here was specifically the message of the religions founder. Nowhere in the teachings of Islam is violence against peoples of the book condoned, quite the opposie.Stubbee wrote:
My point is that Wahabis TWIST the teachings of the Koran for their purposes. Extremists are like statisticians, able to take anything and twist it into something they can claim as 'truth'. These people could twist Dr Seuss into evil rhetoric. So in a sense lowing is right but he generalizes too damned much. He is a 'kill them all and let god sort it out type of guy.'Bertster7 wrote:
That wasn't the point though. The point was that the TEACHINGS don't say that, which is what lowing was asserting.Stubbee wrote:
THIS is the problem.
While most Muslims (like the majority of people in the major religions) are tolerant people there will always be a few extreme nutjobs twisting their beliefs to justify all manner of behaviour.
Wahabism and Wahabis DO NOT believe in the peoples of the book. They even kill other Muslims because they have 'strayed from the faith'.
You could say Falwellism (sorry Jerry first name popped into my head) in protestant theology or OpusDeiism in catholic theology. They are all considered to be ultra conservative (i.e more true to their respective versions of their religion)
So in a sense Wahabis are teaching their followers their version of the Koran. They take verses out of context or mix and match to get what they want and believe. They preach hate. Hate is a very powerful emotion, easily twisted and focused especially on the young. Wahabis do it. KKK do it. That idiot family from the States protesting against US vets and gays does it. Cults do it.
Ahh the religion's founder. Are you discussing his teachings from Mecca or Medina? Wahabis like the Medina teachings.
EDIT:
Found something that illustrates the difference. It is not the source I remember from my youth but it conveys the message.
THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM
HIDDEN & MANIFEST
ZAKARIA BOTROS
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Introduction
After the recent terrorist attack on America’s World Trade Center and Pentagon, there has been a very clear debate in the international media regarding the nature of Islam. We have seen the media change from the one extreme of being explicitly anti-Islamic, to the other, for the sake of presenting a political and human balance, of being pro-Moslem.
Christianity very clearly teaches us to love all of our fellow humans- even our enemies- but it by no means tells us to become blind to reality and the truth, or to be mislead by misinformation.
To make a fair assessment regarding any issue, one must be aware of all sides of the matter at hand, and for this reason; this study will demonstrate a certain side of Islam, which has not been precisely portrayed by any part of the popular media. The facts here will be based on textual reality from a recognised interpretation of the Quran [The meaning of THE HOLY QURAN by Abdullah Yusuf Ali1992]- note that the word ‘interpretation’ and not ‘translation’ is used because Islam prohibits the literal translation of its ‘holy book’- for this reason, the Arabic text of the Quranic verses has also been included, so that there is no possible accusation of misinterpretation.
THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM
In the aftermath of the September 11 attacks, many Muslims (and non-Muslims driven by political ends) worldwide have attempted to present Islam as a religion of peace and love, wanting to distance it from those shameful and brutal occurrences… they say that there is no violence in the essence of Islam.
It is obvious however that the perpetrators of these acts base their dependence on violence on clear and indisputable verses of the Quran, represented clearly in a statement by Osama Bin Laden on the CNN network. Based on this premise, Bin Laden, the Taliban and the Philippines Muslim group Abu Saiaf, among others, have openly declared war against the United States of America in the name of Islam, using quotations from the Quran such as:
‘And those of the people of the Book (Jews & Christians) who aided them (the unbelievers), Allah (God) did take them down from their strongholds. And cast terror into their hearts, so that some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods’ (Surah Al Ahzab 33:26 and 27)
(( وأنزل الذين ظاهروهم (إي الذين آفروا) من أهل الكتاب من صياصيهم (حصونهم) سورة الأحزاب آيات 26 و 27
وقذف في قلوبهم الرعب فريقا تقتلون وتأسرون فريقا. وأورثكم أرضهم وديارهم وأموالهم وأرضا لم تطأها وآان الله
على آل شيء قديرا]
Many are then confused; is Islam is a religion of violence, or one of peace?
When we actually study the book of Islam, the Quran, we discover that Islam has two faces. Each of these face represents a certain stage of Mohammed’s character: one in Mecca, and the other in Medina.
THE FIRST FACE OF ISLAM
Mohammed’s character in Mecca
In Mecca, where Mohammed started his new religion in the year 610 A.D, he was not yet strong. To be accepted by all people, he presented a peaceful and loving picture of Islam, avoiding any mention of violence, and here are some quotations from the Quran about that first stage:
1. Mohammed was told to be patient with his opponents in Surah Al Muzzammil (73:10) ‘And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity)’
+(10 : "واصبر على ما يقولون واهجرهم هجرا جميلا" سورة المزمل ( 73
2. Mohammed was told not to impose Islam by force in Surah Al baqarah (2: 256) ‘Let there
be no compulsion in religion’
+ 256 ) "لا إآراه في الدين" : سورة البقرة ( 2
3. Mohammed was told to speak pleasantly to ‘people of the Book’ (Christians and Jews) in Surah Al Ankabut (29:45) ‘And dispute ye not with the people of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation) … but say: we believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and that which came down to you; Our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)’
+ 46 ) "ولا تجادلوا أهل الكتاب إلا بالتي هي أحسن ... وقولوا آمنا بالذي أنزل إلينا وأنزل إليكم وإلهنا : سورة العنكبوت ( 29
وإلهكم واحد ونحن له مسلمون"
THE SECOND FACE OF ISLAM
Mohammed’s character in Medina
After Mohammed moved to Medina in the year 622 AD and his followers grew in strength and number, he became a relentless warrior, intent on spreading his religion by the sword, and this is the message that now lives on. Here is some evidence from Quran of this stage:
1. He claimed that God told him to kill his opponents in Surah Al baqarah (2:191) ‘And slay them wherever ye catch them …’
"... (191 ) "واقتلوهم حيث ثقفتموهم (وجدتموهم : + سورة البقرة ( 2
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “This passage is illustrated by the events that happened at Hudaybiyyah [a battle] in the six year of the Hijrah [exodus of Mohammed from Mecca to Medina]. The Muslims were by this time a strong and influential community”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
2. He claimed that God told him to kill whoever rejects Islam in Surah Al Baqara (2:193)
‘And fight them on until there is no tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in
Alla …’
"... لله 193 ) "وقاتلوهم حتى لا تكون فتنة ويكون الدين : + سورة البقرة ( 2
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “Islam will not acquiesce in wrong doing, and its men will hold their lives cheap in defence of honour,and the religion which they hold sacred. They believe in courage, obedience… and a constant striving by all means in their power… They will not flinch from war if their houner,demands it and a righteous Imam commands it” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
3. He claimed that God told him to fight the ‘people of the Book’ (Christians & Jews) in Surah
Al Tawba (2:29) ‘Fight those who believe not in Alla and the Last Day … nor acknowledge
the religion of truth (Islam) from among the People of the Book until they pay the Jizyah (tax)
with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued …’
(29 :2) قاتلوا الذين لا يؤمنون بالله واليوم الآخر ... ولا يدينون دين الحق من الذين أوتوا الكتاب (أي “ + سورة التوبة
”... النصارى واليهود) حتى يعطوا الجزية وهم صاغرون
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “A straight fight in the cause of right; go forth bravely to strive and struggle, and prove yourselves worthy of Alla”
(The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.446).
4- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 12) “… Fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith [infidel] …”
"12 ) "... فقاتلوا أئمة الكفر إنهم لا أيمان لهم لعلهم ينتهون : (سورة التوبة 9
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”The catalogue of their sins being set out, it is cleare that they were aggressors in the worst possible ways; and war became inevitable”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.440).
5- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 14) “Fight them and Alla will punish them by your hands, cover them
with shame, help you to victory over them, Heal the breasts of Believers”
"نينمؤم 14 ) "قاتلوهم يعذبهم الله بأيديكم ويخزهم وينصرآم عليهم ويشف صدور قوم : (سورة التوبة 9
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”When Alla’s Law is stablished, the fire of indignation is quelled, and the true Peace of Islam is attained” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.441).
6- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 123) “O ye who believe fight the unbelievers who gird you about. And
let them find firmness in you and know that Alla is with those who fear Him”
عم 123 ) "يا أيها الذين آمنوا قاتلوا الذين يلونكم من الكفار وليجدوا فيكم غلظة واعلموا أن الله : (سورة التوبة 9
المتقين"
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”When conflict becomes inevitable, the first thing is to clear our surroundings of all evil…To evil we must put up a stout and stif resistance” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.475).
7- (Sura Al Anfal 8: 65) “O Prophet rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst
you, patint and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred they will vanquish a
thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding”
نكي 65 ) "يا أيها النبي حرض المؤمنين على القتال إن يكن منكم عشرون صابرون يغلبوا مائتين وإن : (سورة الأنفال 8
منكم مائة يغلبوا ألفا من الذين آفروا بأنهم قوم لا يفقهون"
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “In a fight … the men of faith do not daunt. Whether they personally win or die, their cause prevails. They are sure to win: because (1) they have divine aid, and (2) even humanly speaking, those who take up arms against truth are fools, and their seeming power is but a broken reed”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.431).
He adds,” Jihad (Holy war) is fought under strict conditions laid down by Islam, and glory for the cause of Alla”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.431).
8- (Surah Al Baqara 2: 216) “Fighting is prescribed upon you …”
216 ) "آتب عليكم القتال : "... (سورة البقرة 2
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “To fight in the cause of truth is one of the highest forms of charity”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.86).
Notice: Fight is a form of charity, in Islam!!!
9- (Surah Al Anfal 8:60) “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power,
including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts) of the enemies of Alla and your
enemies …”
"... 60 ) "وأعدوا لهم ما استطعتم من قوة ومن رباط الخيل ترهبون به عدو الله وعدوآم : (سورة الأنفال 8
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “In every fight arm yourself with the best weapons and the best arms against your enemy, so as to instil wholesome respect into him for you and the cause you stand for”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.429).
THE SAME IDEOLOGY & STRATEGY
The problem with the assessment of Islam in the West, which is predominantly Christian, is that it is looked upon as another faith- like Christianity- and thus it is the right of each
individual to worship as he or she pleases. This is right, but the problem is that Islam is not like Christianity.
Christianity is a system of faith and morality which can exist within any national or state system, but Islam however has its own political and judicial system embodied in the Shareia (law) which governs every Muslim. For this reason, Islamic fundamentalists who live even in a moderate Islamic state with a secular political system, will attempt to overthrow this system because it does not sufficiently embody the principal of Islam being ‘Religion and State’.
This study by no means attempts to present a picture of all Muslims being bad, because this is not at all true- there are many moderate Muslims who are good and constructive members of society, but even these are looked upon by fundamentalists as kaffara (apostate) because they do not follow the Quran faithfully, and thus are also worthy of the same end as any non-Muslim, that is, death.
Thus, the problem is one of Islam, and not of Muslims. We know that in any religion, or any faith, it is the role of each believer to carry out the teachings of that faith, and thus, these teaching become the rules by which he or she lives- any ‘faithful’ Muslim must follow the Quran.
Islam everywhere in the world especially in the West follow the same ideology and strategy of Islam. They start with the first stage of weakness to pretend that they are peaceful and loving. They take advantage of Democracy and Human Rights in the West to spread their faith.
After they become strong they do not hesitate to kill people and destroy the civilization of the West, which –according to their belief– is against the doctrines of Islam, as we have seen in bombing the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.
Testimonies Of
Famous Muslims
1- Mohammed Hassanein Heikal’ a well-known Egyptian Muslim author refers to this fact in his famous book “Autumn Furor”. He said,
“The element of Jihad (holy war) emerged in the ideology of Abul Alaa Almaudoody (a fanatical Muslim in Egypt). He went on to differentiate between two separate stages, a Muslim community goes through:
The stage of weakness – In it a Muslim community is unable to take charge of its own destiny. In this case – according to his thinking – they must withdraw for the purpose of preparing themselves to be capable of executing the second stage.
The second stage is the Jihad (holy war) stage, and it will come when the Islamic Community has completed its preparation and is ready to come out of its isolation to take charge, through Jihad
In this, Abul Alaa Almaudoody was making a comparison between the two stages of weakness and Jihad on the one hand, and on the other hand, Mohammad’s struggle in Mecca, then in Medina.”[Following the same strategy of Mohammed].
2- Hassan Abdulla Al Torabi, the most fanatic Sudanese Muslim leader, was accustomed to say openly,
“We pretend to be weak, till we become strong”
3- Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on Surah Al baqarah (2:191) ‘And slay them wherever ye catch them…’
“This passage is illustrated by the events that happened at Hudaybiyyah [a battle] in the six year of the Hijrah [exodus of Mohammed from Mecca to Medina]. The Muslims were by this time a strong and influential community”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
This is the reality of Islam and his two faces. How much we should be aware of what is happening around us.
EDIT:
Found something that illustrates the difference. It is not the source I remember from my youth but it conveys the message.
THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM
HIDDEN & MANIFEST
ZAKARIA BOTROS
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Introduction
After the recent terrorist attack on America’s World Trade Center and Pentagon, there has been a very clear debate in the international media regarding the nature of Islam. We have seen the media change from the one extreme of being explicitly anti-Islamic, to the other, for the sake of presenting a political and human balance, of being pro-Moslem.
Christianity very clearly teaches us to love all of our fellow humans- even our enemies- but it by no means tells us to become blind to reality and the truth, or to be mislead by misinformation.
To make a fair assessment regarding any issue, one must be aware of all sides of the matter at hand, and for this reason; this study will demonstrate a certain side of Islam, which has not been precisely portrayed by any part of the popular media. The facts here will be based on textual reality from a recognised interpretation of the Quran [The meaning of THE HOLY QURAN by Abdullah Yusuf Ali1992]- note that the word ‘interpretation’ and not ‘translation’ is used because Islam prohibits the literal translation of its ‘holy book’- for this reason, the Arabic text of the Quranic verses has also been included, so that there is no possible accusation of misinterpretation.
THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM
In the aftermath of the September 11 attacks, many Muslims (and non-Muslims driven by political ends) worldwide have attempted to present Islam as a religion of peace and love, wanting to distance it from those shameful and brutal occurrences… they say that there is no violence in the essence of Islam.
It is obvious however that the perpetrators of these acts base their dependence on violence on clear and indisputable verses of the Quran, represented clearly in a statement by Osama Bin Laden on the CNN network. Based on this premise, Bin Laden, the Taliban and the Philippines Muslim group Abu Saiaf, among others, have openly declared war against the United States of America in the name of Islam, using quotations from the Quran such as:
‘And those of the people of the Book (Jews & Christians) who aided them (the unbelievers), Allah (God) did take them down from their strongholds. And cast terror into their hearts, so that some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods’ (Surah Al Ahzab 33:26 and 27)
(( وأنزل الذين ظاهروهم (إي الذين آفروا) من أهل الكتاب من صياصيهم (حصونهم) سورة الأحزاب آيات 26 و 27
وقذف في قلوبهم الرعب فريقا تقتلون وتأسرون فريقا. وأورثكم أرضهم وديارهم وأموالهم وأرضا لم تطأها وآان الله
على آل شيء قديرا]
Many are then confused; is Islam is a religion of violence, or one of peace?
When we actually study the book of Islam, the Quran, we discover that Islam has two faces. Each of these face represents a certain stage of Mohammed’s character: one in Mecca, and the other in Medina.
THE FIRST FACE OF ISLAM
Mohammed’s character in Mecca
In Mecca, where Mohammed started his new religion in the year 610 A.D, he was not yet strong. To be accepted by all people, he presented a peaceful and loving picture of Islam, avoiding any mention of violence, and here are some quotations from the Quran about that first stage:
1. Mohammed was told to be patient with his opponents in Surah Al Muzzammil (73:10) ‘And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity)’
+(10 : "واصبر على ما يقولون واهجرهم هجرا جميلا" سورة المزمل ( 73
2. Mohammed was told not to impose Islam by force in Surah Al baqarah (2: 256) ‘Let there
be no compulsion in religion’
+ 256 ) "لا إآراه في الدين" : سورة البقرة ( 2
3. Mohammed was told to speak pleasantly to ‘people of the Book’ (Christians and Jews) in Surah Al Ankabut (29:45) ‘And dispute ye not with the people of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation) … but say: we believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and that which came down to you; Our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)’
+ 46 ) "ولا تجادلوا أهل الكتاب إلا بالتي هي أحسن ... وقولوا آمنا بالذي أنزل إلينا وأنزل إليكم وإلهنا : سورة العنكبوت ( 29
وإلهكم واحد ونحن له مسلمون"
THE SECOND FACE OF ISLAM
Mohammed’s character in Medina
After Mohammed moved to Medina in the year 622 AD and his followers grew in strength and number, he became a relentless warrior, intent on spreading his religion by the sword, and this is the message that now lives on. Here is some evidence from Quran of this stage:
1. He claimed that God told him to kill his opponents in Surah Al baqarah (2:191) ‘And slay them wherever ye catch them …’
"... (191 ) "واقتلوهم حيث ثقفتموهم (وجدتموهم : + سورة البقرة ( 2
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “This passage is illustrated by the events that happened at Hudaybiyyah [a battle] in the six year of the Hijrah [exodus of Mohammed from Mecca to Medina]. The Muslims were by this time a strong and influential community”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
2. He claimed that God told him to kill whoever rejects Islam in Surah Al Baqara (2:193)
‘And fight them on until there is no tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in
Alla …’
"... لله 193 ) "وقاتلوهم حتى لا تكون فتنة ويكون الدين : + سورة البقرة ( 2
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “Islam will not acquiesce in wrong doing, and its men will hold their lives cheap in defence of honour,and the religion which they hold sacred. They believe in courage, obedience… and a constant striving by all means in their power… They will not flinch from war if their houner,demands it and a righteous Imam commands it” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
3. He claimed that God told him to fight the ‘people of the Book’ (Christians & Jews) in Surah
Al Tawba (2:29) ‘Fight those who believe not in Alla and the Last Day … nor acknowledge
the religion of truth (Islam) from among the People of the Book until they pay the Jizyah (tax)
with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued …’
(29 :2) قاتلوا الذين لا يؤمنون بالله واليوم الآخر ... ولا يدينون دين الحق من الذين أوتوا الكتاب (أي “ + سورة التوبة
”... النصارى واليهود) حتى يعطوا الجزية وهم صاغرون
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “A straight fight in the cause of right; go forth bravely to strive and struggle, and prove yourselves worthy of Alla”
(The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.446).
4- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 12) “… Fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith [infidel] …”
"12 ) "... فقاتلوا أئمة الكفر إنهم لا أيمان لهم لعلهم ينتهون : (سورة التوبة 9
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”The catalogue of their sins being set out, it is cleare that they were aggressors in the worst possible ways; and war became inevitable”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.440).
5- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 14) “Fight them and Alla will punish them by your hands, cover them
with shame, help you to victory over them, Heal the breasts of Believers”
"نينمؤم 14 ) "قاتلوهم يعذبهم الله بأيديكم ويخزهم وينصرآم عليهم ويشف صدور قوم : (سورة التوبة 9
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”When Alla’s Law is stablished, the fire of indignation is quelled, and the true Peace of Islam is attained” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.441).
6- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 123) “O ye who believe fight the unbelievers who gird you about. And
let them find firmness in you and know that Alla is with those who fear Him”
عم 123 ) "يا أيها الذين آمنوا قاتلوا الذين يلونكم من الكفار وليجدوا فيكم غلظة واعلموا أن الله : (سورة التوبة 9
المتقين"
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”When conflict becomes inevitable, the first thing is to clear our surroundings of all evil…To evil we must put up a stout and stif resistance” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.475).
7- (Sura Al Anfal 8: 65) “O Prophet rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst
you, patint and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred they will vanquish a
thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding”
نكي 65 ) "يا أيها النبي حرض المؤمنين على القتال إن يكن منكم عشرون صابرون يغلبوا مائتين وإن : (سورة الأنفال 8
منكم مائة يغلبوا ألفا من الذين آفروا بأنهم قوم لا يفقهون"
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “In a fight … the men of faith do not daunt. Whether they personally win or die, their cause prevails. They are sure to win: because (1) they have divine aid, and (2) even humanly speaking, those who take up arms against truth are fools, and their seeming power is but a broken reed”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.431).
He adds,” Jihad (Holy war) is fought under strict conditions laid down by Islam, and glory for the cause of Alla”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.431).
8- (Surah Al Baqara 2: 216) “Fighting is prescribed upon you …”
216 ) "آتب عليكم القتال : "... (سورة البقرة 2
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “To fight in the cause of truth is one of the highest forms of charity”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.86).
Notice: Fight is a form of charity, in Islam!!!
9- (Surah Al Anfal 8:60) “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power,
including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts) of the enemies of Alla and your
enemies …”
"... 60 ) "وأعدوا لهم ما استطعتم من قوة ومن رباط الخيل ترهبون به عدو الله وعدوآم : (سورة الأنفال 8
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “In every fight arm yourself with the best weapons and the best arms against your enemy, so as to instil wholesome respect into him for you and the cause you stand for”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.429).
THE SAME IDEOLOGY & STRATEGY
The problem with the assessment of Islam in the West, which is predominantly Christian, is that it is looked upon as another faith- like Christianity- and thus it is the right of each
individual to worship as he or she pleases. This is right, but the problem is that Islam is not like Christianity.
Christianity is a system of faith and morality which can exist within any national or state system, but Islam however has its own political and judicial system embodied in the Shareia (law) which governs every Muslim. For this reason, Islamic fundamentalists who live even in a moderate Islamic state with a secular political system, will attempt to overthrow this system because it does not sufficiently embody the principal of Islam being ‘Religion and State’.
This study by no means attempts to present a picture of all Muslims being bad, because this is not at all true- there are many moderate Muslims who are good and constructive members of society, but even these are looked upon by fundamentalists as kaffara (apostate) because they do not follow the Quran faithfully, and thus are also worthy of the same end as any non-Muslim, that is, death.
Thus, the problem is one of Islam, and not of Muslims. We know that in any religion, or any faith, it is the role of each believer to carry out the teachings of that faith, and thus, these teaching become the rules by which he or she lives- any ‘faithful’ Muslim must follow the Quran.
Islam everywhere in the world especially in the West follow the same ideology and strategy of Islam. They start with the first stage of weakness to pretend that they are peaceful and loving. They take advantage of Democracy and Human Rights in the West to spread their faith.
After they become strong they do not hesitate to kill people and destroy the civilization of the West, which –according to their belief– is against the doctrines of Islam, as we have seen in bombing the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.
Testimonies Of
Famous Muslims
1- Mohammed Hassanein Heikal’ a well-known Egyptian Muslim author refers to this fact in his famous book “Autumn Furor”. He said,
“The element of Jihad (holy war) emerged in the ideology of Abul Alaa Almaudoody (a fanatical Muslim in Egypt). He went on to differentiate between two separate stages, a Muslim community goes through:
The stage of weakness – In it a Muslim community is unable to take charge of its own destiny. In this case – according to his thinking – they must withdraw for the purpose of preparing themselves to be capable of executing the second stage.
The second stage is the Jihad (holy war) stage, and it will come when the Islamic Community has completed its preparation and is ready to come out of its isolation to take charge, through Jihad
In this, Abul Alaa Almaudoody was making a comparison between the two stages of weakness and Jihad on the one hand, and on the other hand, Mohammad’s struggle in Mecca, then in Medina.”[Following the same strategy of Mohammed].
2- Hassan Abdulla Al Torabi, the most fanatic Sudanese Muslim leader, was accustomed to say openly,
“We pretend to be weak, till we become strong”
3- Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on Surah Al baqarah (2:191) ‘And slay them wherever ye catch them…’
“This passage is illustrated by the events that happened at Hudaybiyyah [a battle] in the six year of the Hijrah [exodus of Mohammed from Mecca to Medina]. The Muslims were by this time a strong and influential community”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
This is the reality of Islam and his two faces. How much we should be aware of what is happening around us.
Last edited by Stubbee (2009-07-24 10:58:51)
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
"This study by no means attempts to present a picture of all Muslims being bad, because this is not at all true- there are many moderate Muslims who are good and constructive members of society, but even these are looked upon by fundamentalists as kaffara (apostate) because they do not follow the Quran faithfully, and thus are also worthy of the same end as any non-Muslim, that is, death.Stubbee wrote:
Ahh the religion's founder. Are you discussing his teachings from Mecca or Medina? Wahabis like the Medina teachings.
EDIT:
Found something that illustrates the difference. It is not the source I remember from my youth but it conveys the message.
THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM
HIDDEN & MANIFEST
ZAKARIA BOTROS
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Introduction
After the recent terrorist attack on America’s World Trade Center and Pentagon, there has been a very clear debate in the international media regarding the nature of Islam. We have seen the media change from the one extreme of being explicitly anti-Islamic, to the other, for the sake of presenting a political and human balance, of being pro-Moslem.
Christianity very clearly teaches us to love all of our fellow humans- even our enemies- but it by no means tells us to become blind to reality and the truth, or to be mislead by misinformation.
To make a fair assessment regarding any issue, one must be aware of all sides of the matter at hand, and for this reason; this study will demonstrate a certain side of Islam, which has not been precisely portrayed by any part of the popular media. The facts here will be based on textual reality from a recognised interpretation of the Quran [The meaning of THE HOLY QURAN by Abdullah Yusuf Ali1992]- note that the word ‘interpretation’ and not ‘translation’ is used because Islam prohibits the literal translation of its ‘holy book’- for this reason, the Arabic text of the Quranic verses has also been included, so that there is no possible accusation of misinterpretation.
THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM
In the aftermath of the September 11 attacks, many Muslims (and non-Muslims driven by political ends) worldwide have attempted to present Islam as a religion of peace and love, wanting to distance it from those shameful and brutal occurrences… they say that there is no violence in the essence of Islam.
It is obvious however that the perpetrators of these acts base their dependence on violence on clear and indisputable verses of the Quran, represented clearly in a statement by Osama Bin Laden on the CNN network. Based on this premise, Bin Laden, the Taliban and the Philippines Muslim group Abu Saiaf, among others, have openly declared war against the United States of America in the name of Islam, using quotations from the Quran such as:
‘And those of the people of the Book (Jews & Christians) who aided them (the unbelievers), Allah (God) did take them down from their strongholds. And cast terror into their hearts, so that some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods’ (Surah Al Ahzab 33:26 and 27)
(( وأنزل الذين ظاهروهم (إي الذين آفروا) من أهل الكتاب من صياصيهم (حصونهم) سورة الأحزاب آيات 26 و 27
وقذف في قلوبهم الرعب فريقا تقتلون وتأسرون فريقا. وأورثكم أرضهم وديارهم وأموالهم وأرضا لم تطأها وآان الله
على آل شيء قديرا]
Many are then confused; is Islam is a religion of violence, or one of peace?
When we actually study the book of Islam, the Quran, we discover that Islam has two faces. Each of these face represents a certain stage of Mohammed’s character: one in Mecca, and the other in Medina.
THE FIRST FACE OF ISLAM
Mohammed’s character in Mecca
In Mecca, where Mohammed started his new religion in the year 610 A.D, he was not yet strong. To be accepted by all people, he presented a peaceful and loving picture of Islam, avoiding any mention of violence, and here are some quotations from the Quran about that first stage:
1. Mohammed was told to be patient with his opponents in Surah Al Muzzammil (73:10) ‘And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity)’
+(10 : "واصبر على ما يقولون واهجرهم هجرا جميلا" سورة المزمل ( 73
2. Mohammed was told not to impose Islam by force in Surah Al baqarah (2: 256) ‘Let there
be no compulsion in religion’
+ 256 ) "لا إآراه في الدين" : سورة البقرة ( 2
3. Mohammed was told to speak pleasantly to ‘people of the Book’ (Christians and Jews) in Surah Al Ankabut (29:45) ‘And dispute ye not with the people of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation) … but say: we believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and that which came down to you; Our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)’
+ 46 ) "ولا تجادلوا أهل الكتاب إلا بالتي هي أحسن ... وقولوا آمنا بالذي أنزل إلينا وأنزل إليكم وإلهنا : سورة العنكبوت ( 29
وإلهكم واحد ونحن له مسلمون"
THE SECOND FACE OF ISLAM
Mohammed’s character in Medina
After Mohammed moved to Medina in the year 622 AD and his followers grew in strength and number, he became a relentless warrior, intent on spreading his religion by the sword, and this is the message that now lives on. Here is some evidence from Quran of this stage:
1. He claimed that God told him to kill his opponents in Surah Al baqarah (2:191) ‘And slay them wherever ye catch them …’
"... (191 ) "واقتلوهم حيث ثقفتموهم (وجدتموهم : + سورة البقرة ( 2
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “This passage is illustrated by the events that happened at Hudaybiyyah [a battle] in the six year of the Hijrah [exodus of Mohammed from Mecca to Medina]. The Muslims were by this time a strong and influential community”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
2. He claimed that God told him to kill whoever rejects Islam in Surah Al Baqara (2:193)
‘And fight them on until there is no tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in
Alla …’
"... لله 193 ) "وقاتلوهم حتى لا تكون فتنة ويكون الدين : + سورة البقرة ( 2
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “Islam will not acquiesce in wrong doing, and its men will hold their lives cheap in defence of honour,and the religion which they hold sacred. They believe in courage, obedience… and a constant striving by all means in their power… They will not flinch from war if their houner,demands it and a righteous Imam commands it” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
3. He claimed that God told him to fight the ‘people of the Book’ (Christians & Jews) in Surah
Al Tawba (2:29) ‘Fight those who believe not in Alla and the Last Day … nor acknowledge
the religion of truth (Islam) from among the People of the Book until they pay the Jizyah (tax)
with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued …’
(29 :2) قاتلوا الذين لا يؤمنون بالله واليوم الآخر ... ولا يدينون دين الحق من الذين أوتوا الكتاب (أي “ + سورة التوبة
”... النصارى واليهود) حتى يعطوا الجزية وهم صاغرون
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “A straight fight in the cause of right; go forth bravely to strive and struggle, and prove yourselves worthy of Alla”
(The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.446).
4- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 12) “… Fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith [infidel] …”
"12 ) "... فقاتلوا أئمة الكفر إنهم لا أيمان لهم لعلهم ينتهون : (سورة التوبة 9
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”The catalogue of their sins being set out, it is cleare that they were aggressors in the worst possible ways; and war became inevitable”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.440).
5- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 14) “Fight them and Alla will punish them by your hands, cover them
with shame, help you to victory over them, Heal the breasts of Believers”
"نينمؤم 14 ) "قاتلوهم يعذبهم الله بأيديكم ويخزهم وينصرآم عليهم ويشف صدور قوم : (سورة التوبة 9
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”When Alla’s Law is stablished, the fire of indignation is quelled, and the true Peace of Islam is attained” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.441).
6- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 123) “O ye who believe fight the unbelievers who gird you about. And
let them find firmness in you and know that Alla is with those who fear Him”
عم 123 ) "يا أيها الذين آمنوا قاتلوا الذين يلونكم من الكفار وليجدوا فيكم غلظة واعلموا أن الله : (سورة التوبة 9
المتقين"
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”When conflict becomes inevitable, the first thing is to clear our surroundings of all evil…To evil we must put up a stout and stif resistance” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.475).
7- (Sura Al Anfal 8: 65) “O Prophet rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst
you, patint and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred they will vanquish a
thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding”
نكي 65 ) "يا أيها النبي حرض المؤمنين على القتال إن يكن منكم عشرون صابرون يغلبوا مائتين وإن : (سورة الأنفال 8
منكم مائة يغلبوا ألفا من الذين آفروا بأنهم قوم لا يفقهون"
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “In a fight … the men of faith do not daunt. Whether they personally win or die, their cause prevails. They are sure to win: because (1) they have divine aid, and (2) even humanly speaking, those who take up arms against truth are fools, and their seeming power is but a broken reed”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.431).
He adds,” Jihad (Holy war) is fought under strict conditions laid down by Islam, and glory for the cause of Alla”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.431).
8- (Surah Al Baqara 2: 216) “Fighting is prescribed upon you …”
216 ) "آتب عليكم القتال : "... (سورة البقرة 2
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “To fight in the cause of truth is one of the highest forms of charity”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.86).
Notice: Fight is a form of charity, in Islam!!!
9- (Surah Al Anfal 8:60) “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power,
including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts) of the enemies of Alla and your
enemies …”
"... 60 ) "وأعدوا لهم ما استطعتم من قوة ومن رباط الخيل ترهبون به عدو الله وعدوآم : (سورة الأنفال 8
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “In every fight arm yourself with the best weapons and the best arms against your enemy, so as to instil wholesome respect into him for you and the cause you stand for”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.429).
THE SAME IDEOLOGY & STRATEGY
The problem with the assessment of Islam in the West, which is predominantly Christian, is that it is looked upon as another faith- like Christianity- and thus it is the right of each
individual to worship as he or she pleases. This is right, but the problem is that Islam is not like Christianity.
Christianity is a system of faith and morality which can exist within any national or state system, but Islam however has its own political and judicial system embodied in the Shareia (law) which governs every Muslim. For this reason, Islamic fundamentalists who live even in a moderate Islamic state with a secular political system, will attempt to overthrow this system because it does not sufficiently embody the principal of Islam being ‘Religion and State’.
This study by no means attempts to present a picture of all Muslims being bad, because this is not at all true- there are many moderate Muslims who are good and constructive members of society, but even these are looked upon by fundamentalists as kaffara (apostate) because they do not follow the Quran faithfully, and thus are also worthy of the same end as any non-Muslim, that is, death.
Thus, the problem is one of Islam, and not of Muslims. We know that in any religion, or any faith, it is the role of each believer to carry out the teachings of that faith, and thus, these teaching become the rules by which he or she lives- any ‘faithful’ Muslim must follow the Quran.
Islam everywhere in the world especially in the West follow the same ideology and strategy of Islam. They start with the first stage of weakness to pretend that they are peaceful and loving. They take advantage of Democracy and Human Rights in the West to spread their faith.
After they become strong they do not hesitate to kill people and destroy the civilization of the West, which –according to their belief– is against the doctrines of Islam, as we have seen in bombing the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.
Testimonies Of
Famous Muslims
1- Mohammed Hassanein Heikal’ a well-known Egyptian Muslim author refers to this fact in his famous book “Autumn Furor”. He said,
“The element of Jihad (holy war) emerged in the ideology of Abul Alaa Almaudoody (a fanatical Muslim in Egypt). He went on to differentiate between two separate stages, a Muslim community goes through:
The stage of weakness – In it a Muslim community is unable to take charge of its own destiny. In this case – according to his thinking – they must withdraw for the purpose of preparing themselves to be capable of executing the second stage.
The second stage is the Jihad (holy war) stage, and it will come when the Islamic Community has completed its preparation and is ready to come out of its isolation to take charge, through Jihad
In this, Abul Alaa Almaudoody was making a comparison between the two stages of weakness and Jihad on the one hand, and on the other hand, Mohammad’s struggle in Mecca, then in Medina.”[Following the same strategy of Mohammed].
2- Hassan Abdulla Al Torabi, the most fanatic Sudanese Muslim leader, was accustomed to say openly,
“We pretend to be weak, till we become strong”
3- Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on Surah Al baqarah (2:191) ‘And slay them wherever ye catch them…’
“This passage is illustrated by the events that happened at Hudaybiyyah [a battle] in the six year of the Hijrah [exodus of Mohammed from Mecca to Medina]. The Muslims were by this time a strong and influential community”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
This is the reality of Islam and his two faces. How much we should be aware of what is happening around us.
Thus, the problem is one of Islam, and not of Muslims."
Gee, does this sound familar folks? Coulda swore I have made this distinction for 3 years.
In a nut shell, Muhammad through misdirection and false character passed himself off as a peace loving individual to gain strength, then once powerful showed his true colors as his violence and intolerance reigned.
A very good post sir, and yet it will condemned as biased and unfair by the members here because it does not conclude in their favor. It speaks the truth.
Last edited by lowing (2009-07-24 11:14:25)
Did you really have to quote my big assed post ?
There are one or two things we can agree on, lowing. Muslims extremist (ultra conservatives) describe Islam not as a religion but a way of life. This view is incompatible with western i.e. secular society. We strive, for the most part, to separate church and state while they integrate.
There are one or two things we can agree on, lowing. Muslims extremist (ultra conservatives) describe Islam not as a religion but a way of life. This view is incompatible with western i.e. secular society. We strive, for the most part, to separate church and state while they integrate.
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
Yeah not sure why I quoted all that, force of habit I guess. Sorry.Stubbee wrote:
Did you really have to quote my big assed post ?
There are one or two things we can agree on, lowing. Muslims extremist (ultra conservatives) describe Islam not as a religion but a way of life. This view is incompatible with western i.e. secular society. We strive, for the most part, to separate church and state while they integrate.
I do feel vindicated however, with this article basically claiming exactly what I have been saying all these years.
ISLAM is the problem, and not necessarily Muslims.
and that there is a difference between Islam and Muslims.
Also the painting of Muhammad exactly, correctly and fairly what he was.
All of my points were made by this article, and I do not see how you can label the article bias, racist, or ignorant
Last edited by lowing (2009-07-24 17:08:45)
If you don't convert the Muslims will cut off your head out of love for Allah. Go to Saudi Arabia and preach Christianity in the streets if you don't believe me.
How about 3 days, all around.
can I get that WITH pay and in conjunction with my weekend?ATG wrote:
How about 3 days, all around.
Go to the UAE and do the same thing. They won't cut your head off.Lotta_Drool wrote:
If you don't convert the Muslims will cut off your head out of love for Allah. Go to Saudi Arabia and preach Christianity in the streets if you don't believe me.
Pages: 1 2
- Index »
- Community »
- Debate and Serious Talk »
- He needed "more religious instruction" to be a sucide bomber,