Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6399|eXtreme to the maX

usm wrote:

who said anything about folding?  i am saying it is making the environment worse.  isnt that the opposite of what we are supposed to do?
I'm with the flametroll on this one.
The net effect will be to shift production to lower cost, lower efficiency, dirtier production areas.
And the US will lose its production capability and zillions of jobs.

OTOH Another way of looking at it is as follows:

Cost of a product is proportional to the cost of the energy used to make it, which is proportional to the CO2 used to produce it (assuming a level playing field, which it more or less is).
Cost of coal, oil, steel, plastic etc is about even for US, Europe and China, since its all bought on the world market.

In the developed world we have 'relatively' clean and efficient industry, but we pay our people well - which adds to the cost of the product - and they in turn consume and burn resources until whittled away all their income can be shown to end up as burnt coal or oil.
Farmed food requires energy, heating homes takes energy, driving a V8 4WD to work takes energy.

In the less developed world maybe they are dirtier and less efficient, but their people earn less, don't drive so much, don't take so many holidays.

Ultimately whatever you spend on a product ends up as CO2 via oil or coal.
The lower the cost in theory the less environmental damage.
Fuck Israel
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6874|SE London

Dilbert_X wrote:

usm wrote:

who said anything about folding?  i am saying it is making the environment worse.  isnt that the opposite of what we are supposed to do?
I'm with the flametroll on this one.
The net effect will be to shift production to lower cost, lower efficiency, dirtier production areas.
And the US will lose its production capability and zillions of jobs.

OTOH Another way of looking at it is as follows:

Cost of a product is proportional to the cost of the energy used to make it, which is proportional to the CO2 used to produce it (assuming a level playing field, which it more or less is).
Cost of coal, oil, steel, plastic etc is about even for US, Europe and China, since its all bought on the world market.

In the developed world we have 'relatively' clean and efficient industry, but we pay our people well - which adds to the cost of the product - and they in turn consume and burn resources until whittled away all their income can be shown to end up as burnt coal or oil.
Farmed food requires energy, heating homes takes energy, driving a V8 4WD to work takes energy.

In the less developed world maybe they are dirtier and less efficient, but their people earn less, don't drive so much, don't take so many holidays.

Ultimately whatever you spend on a product ends up as CO2 via oil or coal.
The lower the cost in theory the less environmental damage.
Kind of close to the lines I've been going down. You need to create an incentive for companies to reduce the carbon cost of products, not the actual cost. There are two ways this could be achieved, a gradual shift through consumer spending patterns influenced by simple, obvious and uniform product labelling or through government regulation, which would throw all industry into chaos and wouldn't actually happen due to international differences of opinion.

What could it hurt to introduce a uniform global carbon labelling scheme for all products? The potential benefits could be huge (by consumer spending trends shifting towards lower carbon cost products) and what is the cost/risk associated with it?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6399|eXtreme to the maX
Carbon cost and actual cost are exactly the same, currently.

The only real option is alternative energy sources, and a carbon tax the best way to push that forward.
Levy it on imports and you protect your own industry.
Fuck Israel
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6835|Texas - Bigger than France

Dilbert_X wrote:

Carbon cost and actual cost are exactly the same, currently.

The only real option is alternative energy sources, and a carbon tax the best way to push that forward.
Levy it on imports and you protect your own industry.
that would work
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6968|Canberra, AUS

Dilbert_X wrote:

Carbon cost and actual cost are exactly the same, currently.

The only real option is alternative energy sources, and a carbon tax the best way to push that forward.
Levy it on imports and you protect your own industry.
That's what I've been saying, that's what many, many economists have been saying. It's just that politicians are so frightened of publicly using the word "tax" (because many people shit their fucking pants if they hear it) that they've resorted to implementing it in a way that avoids the word, but has the same effect... and is 1000x more complicated.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6399|eXtreme to the maX
that they've resorted to implementing it in a way that avoids the word, but has the same effect... and is 1000x more complicated
Correct, and also allows high carbon industries to bribe their way out.
Fuck Israel
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6968|Canberra, AUS

Dilbert_X wrote:

that they've resorted to implementing it in a way that avoids the word, but has the same effect... and is 1000x more complicated
Correct, and also allows high carbon industries to bribe their way out.
It also neutralizes some of the efforts households make, as they'll just pick up some of the  slack via carbon permits.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6842|San Diego, CA, USA
On my way home today I heard some congressman was laughing when a reported asked that they a pledge to read the bill they vote on AND provide the bill in its final form for the public to see ... I'm sure its on Youtube by now somewhere.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6968|Canberra, AUS

Harmor wrote:

On my way home today I heard some congressman was laughing when a reported asked that they a pledge to read the bill they vote on AND provide the bill in its final form for the public to see ... I'm sure its on Youtube by now somewhere.
And that's why my faith in politicians to find a workable solution is... tenuous, to put it lightly.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6842|San Diego, CA, USA
You know I wouldn't put is pass the Democrats to mandate that we have to power our cars/homes with our own Urine:

The Power of Pee: Cars and devices could soon be powered by hydrogen extracted from urine
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6698|North Carolina

usmarine wrote:

It's all fucking bullshit.  We are not getting clean air for the world with this bill, we are getting it in America.  At what cost?  Jobs.  So, we make the air in our neighborhoods cleaner for the unemployed, while the jobs go to mexico and produces even more pollution because their emissions standards are not even close to ours.  Why do you think China and India are having a issue with the current climate talks?  Jobs.  Money.  Fuck sakes this bill is beyond stupid and does nothing for the world environment at all.  Save the stats green weenies because the jobs will go to some shithole and pollute twice as much, so you made it worse for the world, not better.  Good job!  Fucking save it already.  We are sick of hearing from you.  Carbon credits and such is one of the biggest scams in history.  You green weenies should be ashamed of yourselves. -spark bold
Um, that seems like a pretty extreme response all because I mentioned how the EPA isn't nearly as anti-pollution as you thought it was.

While I disagree with cap and trade schemes, raising standards is a good thing and can be compensated for by government incentives.

A business won't outsource as a result of higher standards here if the costs of meeting those standards is at least partially subsidized.  There are things the government can do to encourage and reward businesses who go beyond the standards as well.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7055

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

It's all fucking bullshit.  We are not getting clean air for the world with this bill, we are getting it in America.  At what cost?  Jobs.  So, we make the air in our neighborhoods cleaner for the unemployed, while the jobs go to mexico and produces even more pollution because their emissions standards are not even close to ours.  Why do you think China and India are having a issue with the current climate talks?  Jobs.  Money.  Fuck sakes this bill is beyond stupid and does nothing for the world environment at all.  Save the stats green weenies because the jobs will go to some shithole and pollute twice as much, so you made it worse for the world, not better.  Good job!  Fucking save it already.  We are sick of hearing from you.  Carbon credits and such is one of the biggest scams in history.  You green weenies should be ashamed of yourselves. -spark bold
Um, that seems like a pretty extreme response all because I mentioned how the EPA isn't nearly as anti-pollution as you thought it was.

While I disagree with cap and trade schemes, raising standards is a good thing and can be compensated for by government incentives.

A business won't outsource as a result of higher standards here if the costs of meeting those standards is at least partially subsidized.  There are things the government can do to encourage and reward businesses who go beyond the standards as well.
i like your country.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6842|San Diego, CA, USA
EPA Admits Cap-and-Trade Won’t Work

Why am I not surprised.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7055

Harmor wrote:

EPA Admits Cap-and-Trade Won’t Work

Why am I not surprised.
ooolol.  told ya fuck holes.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7009
It's pretty pointless if other countries don't do it also... and they aren't.
And this will only hurt individuals that will lose jobs and pay higher prices for energy and related costs...
Companies will pass it on to the consumer and if it gets bad they will move their operations overseas or close them.
This is just a way to tax... The govt could care less if the US was greener... they just need money for their insatiable appetite.
It will be noted who votes for or against this and will be reflected in 2010.
Love is the answer
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6968|Canberra, AUS

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

It's pretty pointless if other countries don't do it also... and they aren't.
And this will only hurt individuals that will lose jobs and pay higher prices for energy and related costs...
Companies will pass it on to the consumer and if it gets bad they will move their operations overseas or close them.
This is just a way to tax... The govt could care less if the US was greener... they just need money for their insatiable appetite.
It will be noted who votes for or against this and will be reflected in 2010.
EU is, we are (or were going to)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7055

Harmor wrote:

EPA Admits Cap-and-Trade Won’t Work

Why am I not surprised.
keep hiding ladies.  no, no need to respond.  we know.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6698|North Carolina

usmarine wrote:

Harmor wrote:

EPA Admits Cap-and-Trade Won’t Work

Why am I not surprised.
keep hiding ladies.  no, no need to respond.  we know.
I thought you said the EPA was full of shit.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7055

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Harmor wrote:

EPA Admits Cap-and-Trade Won’t Work

Why am I not surprised.
keep hiding ladies.  no, no need to respond.  we know.
I thought you said the EPA was full of shit.
lol they had to admit it since they were aboot to be investigated.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6698|North Carolina
I'm just saying...  it seems odd to blast the EPA as useless one moment and then try to make a point with a study made by them.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7055

Turquoise wrote:

I'm just saying...  it seems odd to blast the EPA as useless one moment and then try to make a point with a study made by them.
because it was about to be made public so they had no choice.  its simple as that.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6698|North Carolina

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I'm just saying...  it seems odd to blast the EPA as useless one moment and then try to make a point with a study made by them.
because it was about to be made public so they had no choice.  its simple as that.
You seem to be very selective in your scrutiny of them.  It seems more like you're just sticking to whatever suits your predispositions.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7055

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I'm just saying...  it seems odd to blast the EPA as useless one moment and then try to make a point with a study made by them.
because it was about to be made public so they had no choice.  its simple as that.
You seem to be very selective in your scrutiny of them.  It seems more like you're just sticking to whatever suits your predispositions.
whatever you say.  i know how this works.  they were threatened to come forward or face serious problems.  nothing more, nothing less.  you can think what you want.  they did not want to admit this at all.  that still means they are full of shit.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6698|North Carolina

usmarine wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine wrote:


because it was about to be made public so they had no choice.  its simple as that.
You seem to be very selective in your scrutiny of them.  It seems more like you're just sticking to whatever suits your predispositions.
whatever you say.  i know how this works.  they were threatened to come forward or face serious problems.  nothing more, nothing less.  you can think what you want.  they did not want to admit this at all.  that still means they are full of shit.
Regardless, I've never been a fan of cap and trade to start with.

I just don't put much stock in the EPA regardless of whether they are under pressure or not.

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