BF2S Forums Ted Nugent, how does this not make sense to you?? (self defense)

That's actually a fairly tame Ted.

Isn't it strange the way there's a fairly linear correlation between gun ownership and the rate of gun related homicides (except for the US, which is far, far worse).



I suppose all those deaths can be accounted for by the number of criminals shot in self defence....

PureFodder wrote:

This just highlights a difference in approach between the US which teds towards individualism and self reliance to combat symptoms and European approaches which tend towards working togather to combat the causes.

No, this just highlights the difference between the US approach of individualism and self relience and Europeans approach to expect govt. to coddle them on yet another issue.

lowing wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

This just highlights a difference in approach between the US which teds towards individualism and self reliance to combat symptoms and European approaches which tend towards working togather to combat the causes.

No, this just highlights the difference between the US approach of individualism and self relience and Europeans approach to expect govt. to coddle them on yet another issue.

And which way gets fewer people killed?

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

This just highlights a difference in approach between the US which teds towards individualism and self reliance to combat symptoms and European approaches which tend towards working togather to combat the causes.

No, this just highlights the difference between the US approach of individualism and self relience and Europeans approach to expect govt. to coddle them on yet another issue.

And which way gets fewer people killed?

Less criminals I am sure. victims are still getting attacked, just stabbed apparently, but hey, coddling criminals is what this is all about. Because they have important lives as well, far more important than a "lucky", "fortunate" responsible citizen.

Last edited by lowing (2009-07-13 09:25:16)

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Isn't it strange the way there's a fairly linear correlation between gun ownership and the rate of gun related homicides (except for the US, which is far, far worse).

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4564/i … ionald.jpg

I suppose all those deaths can be accounted for by the number of criminals shot in self defence....

Well since big brother does not allow you to defend yourselves in Europe, you all have to resort to getting stabbed.
http://www.insight-security.com/facts-k … %20numbers

if only those victims had a chance.

It's quite a bit easier to avoid getting stabbed. You just sort of, run away.

Ahhhh yes, the pacifist approach, here, I will just run away to make it easier for you to break into my house without any resistence. Take whatever you want.

If you choose to run away instead of defend yourself that is your right I guess. I however choose to stand up to criminals defend my family and myself in my own home. Sorry, I am funny that way

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

No, this just highlights the difference between the US approach of individualism and self relience and Europeans approach to expect govt. to coddle them on yet another issue.

And which way gets fewer people killed?

Less criminals I am sure. victims are still getting attack, just stabbed apparently, but hey, coddling criminals is what this is all about. Because they have important lives as well, far more important than a "lucky", "fortunate" responsible citizen.

So it's just coincidence?

Or does the overall system here (which you always seem so critical of) just produce fewer violent criminals? Maybe the system of coddling criminals is actually more effective. There's certainly something wrong with the system in the US, just look at the gun related homicide rate (the knife related homicide rate is higher too) - what causes it to be so high is debateable, but there must be a root cause and that root cause has to be to do with the overall system (basically nurture, not nature).

It's kind of hard to argue the point that since the US has by far the highest gun related homicide rate in the western world, there has to be some kind of flaw in your system somewhere. Where? That's the real question. Is it due to gun ownership rates (which the trend on the graph seems to suggest)? Is it down to the educational system? Is it due to inadequate social programs? Is it because of the justice system? Or is it stupid ideas being spread by retards like Mr Nugent? Whatever it is, there is a problem. It seems unlikely the solution to the problem is for people to carry more guns.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2009-07-13 09:35:19)

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

It's quite a bit easier to avoid getting stabbed. You just sort of, run away.

Ahhhh yes, the pacifist approach, here, I will just run away to make it easier for you to break into my house without any resistence. Take whatever you want.

If you choose to run away instead of defend yourself that is your right I guess. I however choose to stand up to criminals defend my family and myself in my own home. Sorry, I am funny that way

Oh we're talking about home invasion, sorry missed that bit.

If you choose to put your life in danger over a property in the home (which is insured i assume), more fool you. Can't defend your family very well when you've had your insides plastered all over a wall.

Actually, I tend to view the other way. If a criminal chooses to put HIS life in danger over MY property then he is the fool.

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

So it's just coincidence?

Or does the overall system here (which you always seem so critical of) just produce fewer violent criminals? Maybe the system of coddling criminals is actually more effective. There's certainly something wrong with the system in the US, just look at the gun related homicide rate (the knife related homicide rate is higher too) - what causes it to be so high is debateable, but there must be a root cause and that root cause has to be to do with the overall system (basically nurture, not nature).

It's kind of hard to argue the point that since the US has by far the highest gun related homicide rate in the western world, there has to be some kind of flaw in your system somewhere. Where? That's the real question. Is it due to gun ownership rates (which the trend on the graph seems to suggest)? Is it down to the educational system? Is it due to inadequate social programs? Is it because of the justice system? Whatever it is, there is a problem. It seems unlikely the solution to the problem is for people to carry more guns.

Good post Bertster.

I do not know the stats, but I will assume that the vast majority of violent gun crime is not carried out by previously law abiding citizens.

Where do I think the problem lies? an entitlement attitude, I SHOULD have it, so I will get however I can ( rather than earn it).

the jusicial system, we simply do not take punishment seriously in the US. Taons of parolees and repeat offenders running aorund.

But I will disagree, the problem is not more people carrying guns. the problem is more criminals carrying guns, in the attempt of law abiding citizens having thiers removed. I would rather put MY safety in MY hands, than put it in govt. hands.

Whilst I can completely understand that and to be honest I might feel safer having a gun and not having to rely on the government for protection, I can also see the trends and the numbers. The fact that guns seem so rare in the society I live in means I don't even consider the fact that criminals might have one.

I don't really know what to say, other than lots of maybes. What is clear is that there is a problem somewhere and that problem is perpetuated by the system somehow. When it comes down to how, there's a lot of guessing but no one really knows. I'd pretty much guarantee that Americans are not genetically pre-disposed towards being more violent, so it is something cultural. Whatever it is, it could do with being identified and changed.

What is your solution for your seemingly violent knife problem? Are you willing to take all knives away from law abiding citizens? Knowing damn well the criminals will still have them? you have a knife problem what are you going to do about it?

Last edited by lowing (2009-07-13 09:58:49)

PureFodder wrote:

The knife homicide rate in the UK is actually about the same as the knife homicide rate in the US.

link please, ( per capita)

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Whilst I can completely understand that and to be honest I might feel safer having a gun and not having to rely on the government for protection, I can also see the trends and the numbers. The fact that guns seem so rare in the society I live in means I don't even consider the fact that criminals might have one.

I don't really know what to say, other than lots of maybes. What is clear is that there is a problem somewhere and that problem is perpetuated by the system somehow. When it comes down to how, there's a lot of guessing but no one really knows. I'd pretty much guarantee that Americans are not genetically pre-disposed towards being more violent, so it is something cultural. Whatever it is, it could do with being identified and changed.

What is your solution for your seemingly violent knife problem? Are you willing to take all knives away from law abiding citizens? Knowing damn well the criminals will still have them? you have a knife problem what are you going to do about it?

Yes, pretty much. If you have a knife on you with a blade longer than 3" you will be arrested (offensive weapons act and the knife act of '97 make many types of knife illegal and make it illegal for children to purchase knives and make it illegal to carry a knife unless you have a valid reason for doing so). There are massive advertising and social campaigns aimed at teens. Lot of stuff done in schools about it too.

It is taken very seriously. Which is why you will have heard of it.

As for the rate, about 3% of people (2% of women and 4% of men) are victims of violent crime each year. 6% of violent crime involved a knife (compared to 12% in the US) - according to the Home Office, based on the BCS (which is the more accurate, larger figure - the lower police figures are not taken very seriously). I don't have any comparative figures to hand, but I seem to remember the knife homicide rate in the US is around 50% higher (now I'm doing more checking, that doesn't seem to be the case - looks like more than double the per capita rate in the US) than that in the UK. Overall homicide rate is almost quadruple.

now for the grans prize question, who is killing who? Is gang bangers killing gang bangers, drug dealers killing drug dealers etc..

what is the percentage of homocides are innocent law abiding citizens compared to criminal on criminal crimes?

Bottom line is I feel perfectly safe in my country.

lowing wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

lowing wrote:

What is your solution for your seemingly violent knife problem? Are you willing to take all knives away from law abiding citizens? Knowing damn well the criminals will still have them? you have a knife problem what are you going to do about it?

Yes, pretty much. If you have a knife on you with a blade longer than 3" you will be arrested (offensive weapons act and the knife act of '97 make many types of knife illegal and make it illegal for children to purchase knives and make it illegal to carry a knife unless you have a valid reason for doing so). There are massive advertising and social campaigns aimed at teens. Lot of stuff done in schools about it too.

It is taken very seriously. Which is why you will have heard of it.

As for the rate, about 3% of people (2% of women and 4% of men) are victims of violent crime each year. 6% of violent crime involved a knife (compared to 12% in the US) - according to the Home Office, based on the BCS (which is the more accurate, larger figure - the lower police figures are not taken very seriously). I don't have any comparative figures to hand, but I seem to remember the knife homicide rate in the US is around 50% higher (now I'm doing more checking, that doesn't seem to be the case - looks like more than double the per capita rate in the US) than that in the UK. Overall homicide rate is almost quadruple.

now for the grans prize question, who is killing who? Is gang bangers killing gang bangers, drug dealers killing drug dealers etc..

what is the percentage of homocides are innocent law abiding citizens compared to criminal on criminal crimes?

Bottom line is I feel perfectly safe in my country.

Fucked if I know.

I'd imagine the trends of who's killing who are fairly similar on both sides of the Atlantic - but I have no evidence whatsoever to back that up with.